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/  Forum Index
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      /  What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
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Deniil715 
What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 14-Jul-2015 10:25:12
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4236
From: Sweden

Well, as the title says: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?

Not really being into emulation at all, but sometimes wanting a portable Amiga and have started in small scale by being kickstarted by some nice people

As far as I understand, Amiga Forever is a package with WinUAE, kickstart and some software. AmiKit is a big software bundle. Is AmiKit part of Amiga Forever? Can it be a part, or would that mess up the AF setup?

How do you emulation dudes run your setups? What do you run?

My far goal is basically a copy of my X1000 setup on a laptop, running OS4/PPC emulation.

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> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

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AmiKit 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 14-Jul-2015 10:49:57
#2 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2004
Posts: 1135
From: Europe

@Deniil715

Taken from AmiKit website FAQ:

Both AmiKit and Amiga Forever use the same emulation engine called WinUAE. The main difference is that while the Amiga Forever is a commercial product that includes legal ROM and system files and provides you with the default (and very basic) AmigaOS environment, the AmiKit is freeware and doesn't include the ROM or any other system files. On the other hand AmiKit includes more than 350 pre-configured programs that turn the default OS into the ultimate environment. Those programs are not part of the default AmigaOS or Amiga Forever installation.

AmiKit installs into its own separated folder and during the installation it copies a ROM and system files from Amiga Forever (or any other given source of AmigaOS) to AmiKit automatically. Since this point the AmiKit becomes a complete and standalone application.

Newer versions of Amiga Forever introduced an integrated support of AmiKit. It means that AmiKit can be downloaded, installed and run automatically by Amiga Forever Player (see its application tab). In this case AmiKit is installed into Amiga Forever folder.

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miggymac 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 14-Jul-2015 12:28:57
#3 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Oct-2014
Posts: 23
From: Flensburg (Germany), a footstep away from Denmark

@Deniil715

You can`t make a copy of your X1000 setup for use in WinUAE, because WinUAE emulates (at the moment) only Classic Amiga Systems with PowerPC accelerator boards (CyberStorm PPC and Blizzard PPC). So you need AmigaOS 4.1 Classic (FE) and the right Kickstart-ROM, a CyberStorm PPC- or Blizzard PPC ROM file and a Picasso IV ROM-File to be able to run it in WinUAE. Time will tell when WinUAE is able to address more memory than 128MB (CS-PPC) or 256MB (B-PPC) RAM, or even emulates a graphic board with more than 4MB VRAM. In it`s current state, PPC OS4 emulation in WinUAE is fun, but totally useless because of these restrictions. Statements from Cloanto and Tony, the maintainer of WinUAE, seem promising that AmigaForever (and WinUAE) can break these restrictions someday.

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All sorts of computer errors are now turning up. You'd be surprised to know the number of doctors who claim they are treating pregnant men. (Isaac Asimov)

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pavlor 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 14-Jul-2015 14:53:41
#4 ]
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Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@miggymac

Quote:
Time will tell when WinUAE is able to address more memory than 128MB (CS-PPC) or 256MB (B-PPC) RAM


WinUAE supports enough RAM (eg. via Z3 RAM) - 128/256 MB is limitation in OS4 kernel.

Quote:
or even emulates a graphic board with more than 4MB VRAM.


4 MB GFX RAM is suficient for 1680x1050 16 bit screen I use right now. Toni´s current far away goal is Voodoo3 emulation (from MAME).


There are other limitations (10 mbit/s LAN, 68k GFX card drivers), but 128 MB RAM is most severe. Change in OS4 kernel would be trivial, but it is obviously not important enough for Hyperion.

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Develin 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 14-Jul-2015 19:44:56
#5 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2006
Posts: 443
From: Karlstad, Sweden

@pavlor

Hopefully this limitations are gone when AmigaForever PPC is ready =)

I reinstalled 4.1FE some days ago on latest WinUAE beta now and running native PPC-drivers for RTL8029 on GREX (PCI-bridge emulation) works great allready.

I hope Hyperion will see the worth in supporting UAE for new developers that wont pay an arm or a leg for a OS4 development system.

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Deniil715 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 15-Jul-2015 8:09:37
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4236
From: Sweden

@AmiKit

Thanks

Quote:
Newer versions of Amiga Forever introduced an integrated support of AmiKit. It means that AmiKit can be downloaded, installed and run automatically by Amiga Forever Player (see its application tab). In this case AmiKit is installed into Amiga Forever folder.


That must have been what happened Because i installed Amiga Forever, but i got AmiKit so i got confused It's what I wanted though, so all is fine

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> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

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Deniil715 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 15-Jul-2015 8:18:11
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4236
From: Sweden

@miggymac

Well, by "copy" I mean the settings and my apps so i can continue working.

I have OS4-FE for Classic. Just need to set it up and run. But the limitations are annoying, yes :(

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> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

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LimoU.Sin 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 15-Jul-2015 9:04:23
#8 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Jul-2015
Posts: 133
From: Unknown

@miggymac

Amiga OS3 is not limited by the CS/BPPC ram limits. You can use 1,5 GB Z3 Ram with Amiga OS3 in WinUAE if you want.

And what Picasso ROM-file, is that included with WinUAE because i have never installed any Rom-file like that?

Moreover, WinUAE is supposed to emulate Amiga hardware and software so me can't see any reasons to emulate X1000 and AOS4 at all.

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LimoU.Sin 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 15-Jul-2015 9:12:34
#9 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Jul-2015
Posts: 133
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:

4 MB GFX RAM is suficient for 1680x1050 16 bit screen I use right now. Toni´s current far away goal is Voodoo3 emulation (from MAME).

BlizzardVision has 8 MB of Gfx Ram.

You can also set 1 GB GFX Chip RAM in WinUAE.

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DWolfman 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 15-Jul-2015 10:30:31
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2003
Posts: 1442
From: Leavenworth, KS USA

@Deniil715

Quote:

Deniil715 wrote:
@miggymac

Well, by "copy" I mean the settings and my apps so i can continue working.

I have OS4-FE for Classic. Just need to set it up and run. But the limitations are annoying, yes :(


A long time ago I had to switch from my old A3000 w/CSPPC to WinUAE, since I could not afford to buy another at the time. That was somewhat painful, since I had been mixing things up in different drives (some stuff in SYS: and Work:, etc).

What I do now, and this makes it easy to switch to another "Amiga" system:

SYS: partition has ONLY Amiga OS on it. No applications/games/etc get installed there unless it is the only way that program will work.

Work: is where EVERYTHING goes, including any additional commodities/dockies/uilities (I have a Utilities drawer there).

When I need to restore my stuff into another "Amiga" (WinUAE, the A1, etc), I do a clean install of AmigaOS on Sys:, then restore my backup of Work: to a separate partition from Sys:. The only drudge work that is needed then is reinstalling those individual apps that can only be installed to Sys:, and restoring any User-Startup entries (and other individual things on Sys: like libraries, devices, etc) needed to get anything on Work: up and running.

Works for me anyway now. As you can see in some of my prior threads, I had my original A1 die on me and it was a while before I could get another one. In between I brought my data back from the backups on the Linux server in WinUAE until I could get the new A1 working.

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DWolfman 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 15-Jul-2015 10:43:39
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2003
Posts: 1442
From: Leavenworth, KS USA

Also, I may need to reinstall apps if the processor changes. Say I have a PPC app installed since I'm on an A1, but in WinUAE I might need a 68K version of it instead.

You may not need to worry about that if you set up AOS4.1FE in WinUAE though. I still need to buy my copy as a "just in case" situation. When this A1 dies, I will not be replacing it with any OS 4 capable hardware unless the prices start coming down.

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miggymac 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 15-Jul-2015 12:09:01
#12 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Oct-2014
Posts: 23
From: Flensburg (Germany), a footstep away from Denmark

@LimoU.Sin

Quote:
Amiga OS3 is not limited by the CS/BPPC ram limits. You can use 1,5 GB Z3 Ram with Amiga OS3 in WinUAE if you want.


Yes, that's right. i should give it a try :) I might have an old CD with AmigaOS 3.9 somewhere.

Quote:
And what Picasso ROM-file, is that included with WinUAE because i have never installed any Rom-file like that?


As far as i know, this rom is (or was?) required to run the first beta versions of FS-UAE or WinUAE with PPC- and PicassoIV-Support to emulate a Picasso IV graphics board. Don't know if it's still required. I might have a look. Perhaps, i'm totally wrong.

Quote:
Moreover, WinUAE is supposed to emulate Amiga hardware and software so me can't see any reasons to emulate X1000 and AOS4 at all.


yes, i totally agree with you.

@pavlor

Quote:
WinUAE supports enough RAM (eg. via Z3 RAM) - 128/256 MB is limitation in OS4 kernel.


Yes, in AmigaOS 4 Z3 RAM is only used as SWAP caused by kernel limitations. This could be fixed by Hyperion (if they want to).

@LimoU.sin

Quote:
BlizzardVision has 8 MB of Gfx Ram.


The BlizzardVision PPC uses a Permedia2 chipset, afaik. There are no free emulators to get the code from, as Tony said on eab.abime.net. So i think it won't be easy to support. Voodoo 3 board emulation would give you 8, 16 (or perhaps 32?) MB of video memory, so you won't run out of video ram like on the Picasso IV.

For me, as an "old" Amiga 1200 user, who loved his powerful machine (Blizzard 1230/iv + fpu, CD-ROM, Micronik Zorro Board, Cybervision 64/3D), it brings back memories. Sadly, i had to sell it in the year 2000). So it's nice to see how WinUAE and FS-UAE have evolved. Later this year, i will buy my first OS4-Machine, perhaps a SAM 460 cr, just for the fun, and that is one positive effect WinUAE/FS-UAE had .
In the meantime, i bought an old iBook G4 to try out MorphOS, which feels a little bit different to me, but it's also very interesting (if i'm allowed to say here).

Last edited by miggymac on 15-Jul-2015 at 12:27 PM.
Last edited by miggymac on 15-Jul-2015 at 12:14 PM.
Last edited by miggymac on 15-Jul-2015 at 12:11 PM.
Last edited by miggymac on 15-Jul-2015 at 12:10 PM.

_________________
All sorts of computer errors are now turning up. You'd be surprised to know the number of doctors who claim they are treating pregnant men. (Isaac Asimov)

AmigaOS 4.1 FE U1 (WinUAE on MB Pro 2016) / A1200 w. Blizz.1230IV / CV64

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Deniil715 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 16-Jul-2015 9:50:55
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4236
From: Sweden

@DWolfman

Quote:
A long time ago I had to switch from my old A3000 w/CSPPC to WinUAE, since I could not afford to buy another at the time. That was somewhat painful, since I had been mixing things up in different drives (some stuff in SYS: and Work:, etc).


Well I expect a reinstall and putting in all the apps as 68k versions in this current 68k install. But the goal would be WinUAE for PPC where I can use most of my current setup. I also have somewhat separated system and 3rd-party stuff. But some fiddling there would be.

@all

Why are we talking about emulating old gfx cards? What's the point? Why not just use the WinUAE "native" gfx driver?! Noone is hard-banging the old cards anyway since they are all RTG. Just put in native WinUAE P96-driver with lots of gfx RAM and full access to the PC hardware and be done with it, like with 68k WinUAE.

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> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

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miggymac 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 16-Jul-2015 10:16:01
#14 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Oct-2014
Posts: 23
From: Flensburg (Germany), a footstep away from Denmark

@Deniil715

Quote:
Why are we talking about emulating old gfx cards? What's the point? Why not just use the WinUAE "native" gfx driver?! Noone is hard-banging the old cards anyway since they are all RTG. Just put in native WinUAE P96-driver with lots of gfx RAM and full access to the PC hardware and be done with it, like with 68k WinUAE.


Yes, that would be cool. If you want something within WinUAE and AmigaOS 4.1 emulation like "directories as hard drives" or Picasso 96 drivers that can make use of your native hardware like in 68k WinUAE, you have to rewrite the internal drivers and corresponding WinUAE routines. Afaik Tony said on eab, his "goal is emulation, not simulation", so i don't expect it in the near future. Solving the bottlenecks of WinUAE PPC emulation could be the right project for a bounty, i think. For me, 68k emulation is nearly perfect.

Last edited by miggymac on 16-Jul-2015 at 10:16 AM.

_________________
All sorts of computer errors are now turning up. You'd be surprised to know the number of doctors who claim they are treating pregnant men. (Isaac Asimov)

AmigaOS 4.1 FE U1 (WinUAE on MB Pro 2016) / A1200 w. Blizz.1230IV / CV64

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LimoU.Sin 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 16-Jul-2015 11:10:29
#15 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Jul-2015
Posts: 133
From: Unknown

@miggymac

Quote:

miggymac wrote:

For me, as an "old" Amiga 1200 user, who loved his powerful machine (Blizzard 1230/iv + fpu, CD-ROM, Micronik Zorro Board, Cybervision 64/3D), it brings back memories. Sadly, i had to sell it in the year 2000). So it's nice to see how WinUAE and FS-UAE have evolved. Later this year, i will buy my first OS4-Machine, perhaps a SAM 460 cr, just for the fun


My brain doesn't compute that.

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LimoU.Sin 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 16-Jul-2015 11:13:35
#16 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Jul-2015
Posts: 133
From: Unknown

@Deniil715

Quote:

Deniil715 wrote:

Why are we talking about emulating old gfx cards? What's the point? Why not just use the WinUAE "native" gfx driver?! Noone is hard-banging the old cards anyway since they are all RTG. Just put in native WinUAE P96-driver with lots of gfx RAM and full access to the PC hardware and be done with it, like with 68k WinUAE.


What Picasso drivers? I can run Amiga OS3 in 1920x1080x24bit RTG with 512 MB RTG VRAM without installing any Picasso drivers or ROMs, just Amiga OS3 plus Kickstart and configuring WinUAE properly? I can also set 32-bit Chip Ram to 1 GB if i want.


On my real Amiga 1200 I'm using Cybergraphx becaus CGX has better hardware and software support BTW.

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TheAMIgaOne 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 16-Jul-2015 11:17:09
#17 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Jan-2004
Posts: 776
From: United Kingdom

@Develin

I think Hyperion can see the worth of PPC Winuae but at the same time see the loss due to piracy.

As soon as people can have Winuae AmigaOS41 system, someone will share it

Last edited by TheAMIgaOne on 16-Jul-2015 at 11:17 AM.

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number6 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 16-Jul-2015 11:40:44
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@Develin

Quote:
I hope Hyperion will see the worth in supporting UAE for new developers that wont pay an arm or a leg for a OS4 development system.


There are a few facts on this topic, if we take past statements at face value.

(1)Classic OS4.x was stated as being Hyperion's best seller at one juncture.

ok. That would be an argument in favor of exploring this issue re:Hyperion involvement.


(2)Support issues.

ok. That's an argument against this, given the constant talk about limited resources at Hyperion.


(3)Perhaps the deciding factor, and it concerns perceived risk, which has been the key issue in many decisions of the past...

Hyperion by virtue of the settlement agreement with Amiga Inc. can only do what Amiga Inc. is allowed to do re:emu.

I've heard the clause in the settlement agreement argued both ways, but the prevailing opinion seems to be that it is "unclear".

#6

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LimoU.Sin 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 16-Jul-2015 12:37:18
#19 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Jul-2015
Posts: 133
From: Unknown

@TheAMIgaOne

Quote:

TheAMIgaOne wrote:
@Develin

I think Hyperion can see the worth of PPC Winuae but at the same time see the loss due to piracy.

As soon as people can have Winuae AmigaOS41 system, someone will share it

Well, at least they don't have to worry about me...

An OS is just supposed to make hardware available for other software. To me Playstation is worth emulating, C= Amiga and Nintendo 64 and C= 64 is worth emulating. That is because I have plenty of games and Software i bought to these machines I want to use on my PC now when the HW is getting old.

HW can not live forever. The C= Amiga has thousand of exclusive games and software that need to be emulated, I really can't see that is the case with OS4.

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pavlor 
Re: What's the relation between Amiga Forever and AmiKit?
Posted on 16-Jul-2015 14:17:00
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@LimoU.Sin

Quote:
What Picasso drivers? I can run Amiga OS3 in 1920x1080x24bit RTG with 512 MB RTG VRAM without installing any Picasso drivers or ROMs, just Amiga OS3 plus Kickstart and configuring WinUAE properly? I


No. You need Picasso96 UAEGFX driver.

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