@LimoU.Sin

Quote:

LimoU.Sin wrote: @Rob And before you try to say AROS has Amiga compatibility, just so you know, i tried the included AROS ROM file in WinUAE once and it crashed WinUAE so much I had to quit WinUAE with the task manager, something i can't remember i have had to do before, it didn't even get to the startup-sequence i think.

Strange, because WinUAE has now AROS/68K ROMs bundled. And AROS/68K had a lot of improvements and bug fixes.

How long did you tried it?
Quote:

And most important, what do these NG OS have to offer i don't already have on my fair-priced PC? It's got to be really good to justify the price, especially when it comes to OS4.

The transparent integration of 68K software in their o.s..

Just to make an example, you cannot double click to .info icon in your PC, having such Amiga application running with all other Windows, OS X, or Linux applications.

At least not until someone will provide such feature.

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Well, if you put an accelerator board on an Amiga 1200, you have also no 3D and no composition. With BVision - you have 3D, with Mediator/Radeon 9250 - you have 3D and compositing... and FrankenAmiga.

Sorry, I was talking about a 68K accelerator, not a PowerPC one. Are there some 68K accelerators which offer a video card option which allow to use 3D (and maybe compositing)?

Yes, you know how much I like such Franken creature.
Quote:

Quote: Is it fine? YES!

So, your problem is regarding an host o.s. which is making it happening.

Honestly, I don't see the reason of such discrimination. What counts, in the end, is executing the 68K software, no matter in which way you're doing it.

Enjoy it!

@cdimauro

Quote:

Are there some 68K accelerators which offer a video card option which allow to use 3D (and maybe compositing)?

For A1200: only Blizzard603e (680x0 part can use BVision).

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Honestly, I don't see the reason of such discrimination. What counts, in the end, is executing the 68K software, no matter in which way you're doing it.

People using dedicated hardware for AmigaOS or MorphOS wouldn´t agree with you.

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Are there some 68K accelerators which offer a video card option which allow to use 3D (and maybe compositing)? For A1200: only Blizzard603e (680x0 part can use BVision).

Thanks. I took a look at the BVision, and it uses a 3DLab Permedia 2 chip, which doesn't seem to be a 3D champion (the triangle engine has a theoretical limit of 100MFLOPS).

I think that even a low-end PC is able to run 68K software, 3D included, much faster than any "pumped" Amiga 1200 with such accelerator and video card.

Have you tested WinUAE with some 3D games or applications?
Quote:

Quote: Honestly, I don't see the reason of such discrimination. What counts, in the end, is executing the 68K software, no matter in which way you're doing it. People using dedicated hardware for AmigaOS or MorphOS wouldn´t agree with you.

Well, they are using an host o.s. which runs an emulator (Petunia/Trace and/or E-UAE) for 68K applications (and MorphOS is also based on a micro-kernel: another "software layer" added): exactly what I do with my PC using Windows and WinUAE.

@cdimauro

Quote:

Have you tested WinUAE with some 3D games or applications?

Software rendering only (note: there is way how to use hardware accellerated Warp3D, but it is not officialy supported by WinUAE and my experience is not good).

Quote:

Well, they are using an host o.s. which runs an emulator (Petunia/Trace and/or E-UAE) for 68K applications (and MorphOS is also based on a micro-kernel: another "software layer" added): exactly what I do with my PC using Windows and WinUAE.

I hope you wrote this as joke. Comparing AmigaOS/Petunia and Windows/WinUAE wouldn´t be sane.

@LimoU.Sin

Regarding Aros Roms: Hueh?

What have you tried? I use them extensively and they are working well (even with WHDLoad)

and regarding "the real one". I understand that for many people "the real ones" have more emotional feelings than using UAE on different hardware but for me it is difficult now to use something without RTG and enough RAM and processor power. I would not buy a NG machine either because any NG platform never can compete with the big platforms, so for me only FPGA based 68k solutions are interesting.

@pavlor

What if I say that NG is almost as "Franken"?

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Have you tested WinUAE with some 3D games or applications? Software rendering only (note: there is way how to use hardware accellerated Warp3D, but it is not officialy supported by WinUAE and my experience is not good).

And how is your experience with software rendering? Is it fluid / fast?
Quote:

Quote: Well, they are using an host o.s. which runs an emulator (Petunia/Trace and/or E-UAE) for 68K applications (and MorphOS is also based on a micro-kernel: another "software layer" added): exactly what I do with my PC using Windows and WinUAE. I hope you wrote this as joke. Comparing AmigaOS/Petunia and Windows/WinUAE wouldn´t be sane.

It's insane making differences on a pure ideological base.

As I reported, technically the 68K software always runs on a hosted o.s. making use of emulation. From this point of view there's absolutely no difference between OS4, MorphOS, and any PC o.s..

You haven't reported any technical reason why such comparison has to be considered "insane".

@cdimauro

It's nitpicking I guess, (Win)UAE is hardware emulation + CPU Emulation.

Petunia is not even a full CPU emulator, it is just JIT compiler translating from A to B, and it work on a per task bases, it does not do memory virtualization, like the CPU emulation part of WinUAE has too. You do not need any extra rom files to use it, like you need to on WinUAE. Programs run side by side, not knowing what program is 68k and what is PPC. Petunia is 680x0 to PowerPC machine code, that’s all it is. If there improvements to older parts of the OS, the old program can take advantage.

Quote:

As I reported, technically the 68K software always runs on a hosted o.s.

Well in the case of AmigaOS4.1, the 68K program runs directly on top of the host OS (AmigaOS), there is no hosted OS, Unless you like to start UAE.

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Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Aug-2015 at 10:39 AM.
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@OlafS25

Quote:

What if I say that NG is almost as "Franken"?

Mainboard+PCI slots/cards+CPU card vs. mainboard/cards.


However, uA1 and SAM440ep are nice integrated boards (CPU/GFX/Audio etc.).

@cdimauro

Quote:

And how is your experience with software rendering? Is it fluid / fast?

Software rendering is in 8bit - not looking good. Speed? Quake I is fast enough at least up to 800x600.

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It's insane making differences on a pure ideological base.

Ideological?

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From this point of view there's absolutely no difference between OS4, MorphOS, and any PC o.s..

Quote:

You haven't reported any technical reason why such comparison has to be considered "insane".

So, you were fully serious...

Did you know there is no difference (from user point of view) between 68k and PowerPC applications in OS4? 68k applications can use PowerPC libraries and vice versa. But yes, you know better.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro It's nitpicking I guess, (Win)UAE is hardware emulation + CPU Emulation.

Yes, it's much more complete.
Quote:

Petunia is not even a full CPU emulator, it is just JIT compiler translating from A to B,

Also WinUAE has JITer 68K -> x86.
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and it work on a per task bases,

OK, but what's the point here? WinUAE doesn't make any distinction by task: it JITs (or emulates) every 68K piece of code.
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it does not do memory virtualization, like the CPU emulation part of WinUAE has too.

I haven't got it: AFAIK WinUAE doesn't do memory virtualization. Can you explain a bit more?
Quote:

You do not need any extra rom files to use it, like you need to on WinUAE.

That's because the host o.s. provides the tunneling of 68K o.s. APIs to the host o.s.. WinUAE provides something for it (RTG, AHI, sockets, filesystem), redirecting some API calls to the host code or o.s. (Windows).
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Programs run side by side, not knowing what program is 68k and what is PPC.

WinUAE has no need for it: it runs only 68K apps.

However, it runs also OS4.
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Petunia is 680x0 to PowerPC machine code, that’s all it is.

Fine, but you need an host o.s., OS4, to fully run a 68K app.
Quote:

If there improvements to older parts of the OS, the old program can take advantage.

It happens also with WinUAE: see above.

But the point is still here: you have an o.s. which makes use of an emulator/JITer to run 68K applications.

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: And how is your experience with software rendering? Is it fluid / fast? Software rendering is in 8bit - not looking good.

That's a bad thing. At least 16-bit graphic should be supported.
Quote:

Speed? Quake I is fast enough at least up to 800x600.

Good. From what I've read, the Permedia 2 had problems with 640x480@16-bit
Quote:

Quote: It's insane making differences on a pure ideological base. Ideological?

What else, since you provided no reason for your claim?
Quote:

Quote: From this point of view there's absolutely no difference between OS4, MorphOS, and any PC o.s.. Quote: You haven't reported any technical reason why such comparison has to be considered "insane". So, you were fully serious...

As usual.
Quote:

Did you know there is no difference (from user point of view) between 68k and PowerPC applications in OS4? 68k applications can use PowerPC libraries and vice versa. But yes, you know better.

I know it, but see also my previous comment: you need an host o.s. to run 68K software. It's Windows for WinUAE, and OS4 or MorphOS for Petunia/Trance.

There's absolutely no difference.

I still use my Amiga 1200's hard drive image with WinUAE, for running 68K software. Albeit the situation is a bit improved:
- MUCH better performance;
- 1.8GB of RAM, 8MB of chip ram, etc.;
- fast RTG;
- AHI;
- sockets for internet;
- filesystem for virtual hard drives.

So, I enjoy exactly the same 68K apps, with the same o.s., but... MUCH, MUCH better.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro Quote: As I reported, technically the 68K software always runs on a hosted o.s. Well in the case of AmigaOS4.1, the 68K program runs directly on top of the host OS (AmigaOS), there is no hosted OS, Unless you like to start UAE.

I don't see any difference. WinUAE is an application which runs JITed 68K code inside it, which "is part of itself", which then calls the host o.s. when needed.

The difference is that OS4 and MorphOS APIs can be directly called in user space from a 68K app, whereas Windows APIs need a switch to the kernel space.

@LimoU.Sin

have look here http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1251

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@cdimauro

Quote:

Good. From what I've read, the Permedia 2 had problems with 640x480@16-bit

From what I've read, the Permedia 2 works fine with Warp3D games in 640x480@16-bit...

Quote:

I know it, but see also my previous comment: you need an host o.s. to run 68K software. It's Windows for WinUAE, and OS4 or MorphOS for Petunia/Trance.

There is no difference between 68k and PowerPC applications. Eg. my favourite picture viewer MysticView (68k) uses OS4 native render libraries for viewing and OS4 native datatypes for loading of images. I don´t think you can do the same in WinUAE.

Quote:

So, I enjoy exactly the same 68K apps, with the same o.s., but... MUCH, MUCH better.

You are runing OS3 in sandbox separated from host OS and still pretend it is the same quality as OS4 way... yes, that is insane.

Edit: Restored forum layout.

Last edited by pavlor on 01-Aug-2015 at 12:09 PM.
Last edited by pavlor on 01-Aug-2015 at 12:08 PM.

@pavlor

but on Aros 68k you also get improved libraries

@OlafS25

Quote:

What if I say that NG is almost as "Franken"?

Well I suppose that a Sam440 with I PCIe video card running via a PCI-PCIe adapter is a little "Franken" but it's nowhere near an A1200 with a sound card and USB hanging off the clock port, a PCI bus on the trapdoor edge connector and scandoublers, IDE expansions and keyboard adaprers clipped onto chips mounted on the motherboard.

@cdimauro

Quote:

I haven't got it: AFAIK WinUAE doesn't do memory virtualization. Can you explain a bit more?

Like this stuff.
https://github.com/lubomyr/uae4all2/blob/master/src/include/memory-uae.h

No need for get_real_address() on AmigaOS4.1, yes AmigaOS4.1 has memory virtualization, but that is mmu thing, not few lines of code somewhere.

static __inline__ uae_u8 * get_real_address(uaecptr addr)

This is way Petunia was useless: when it came to UAE and Basilisk II, Petunia did not allow memory to be, relocated.

Quote:

That's because the host o.s. provides the tunneling of 68K o.s. APIs to the host o.s.. WinUAE provides something for it (RTG, AHI, sockets, filesystem), redirecting some API calls to the host code or o.s. (Windows).

There are stubs, the stubs primary job is to map 68K register to PowerPC native functions, all legacy functions are tunneled on AmigaOS4, it's however not mandatory to write stubs, when you make a library. While on WinUAE its only (few) places, well many places but fewer then on AmigaOS4.

Quote:

Fine, but you need an host o.s., OS4, to fully run a 68K app.

Yes, UBOOT or CFE can't run 680x0 programs, Petunia is started when kickstart is loaded, so you run 680x0 program in startup-sequence if you like too.

It possible to disable to Petunia to save memory, you don't save any CPU power, as Petunia is only ever used when there is something to translate.

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Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Aug-2015 at 12:43 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Aug-2015 at 12:41 PM.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

you need an host o.s. to run 68K software

Obviously, even on a classic Amiga unless is a game that hit the bare metal. Remember that kickstar is part of the OS. So you always need a host OS to run 68k software (or any cpu software of any os on any platform for that matter) or do you execute software directly on the hardware?

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Last edited by Fransexy on 01-Aug-2015 at 12:42 PM.

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