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wawa 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 19:02:44
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

you posted a few (namely 13) applications, including a number of amiga applications to be be "updated" or "natively ported" to whatever extent is may occur to be possible. even me, i could extend that list by a few. but what is that supposed to prove? that the development of os4 appliactions today is more dynamic and numerous than the development of amiga applications as amiga has (almost) counted as "mainstream". c'mon..

Last edited by wawa on 26-Oct-2015 at 07:03 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 19:10:09
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@wawa

Quote:
to be underpowered. this wasn't always the case.


Well there was time before 3D graphics, was different, Amiga was able to do things PC had problems doing, but that ended around 1995-1996 (PSX), with 3D graphics.

As for under powered it was the case even before Commodore went bust. Other vice way did people spend so much money on upgrades?

Quote:
Demos may be used to show off skills and system abilities beyond usually expactable no matter advancement or system limitations.


Well it takes skills to program slow computers; way do you think C64 demos are so popular.

So you know how C64 demos are created, well they are written on a PC using Microsoft Virtual Studio, then they test the demos in a C64 Emulator, they don't actually use the C64 for productivity. The same thing has happened to classic Amiga.

A slow CPU is just a challenge, to developers, just like 4K demos is challenge to keep programs small.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Oct-2015 at 08:53 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Oct-2015 at 07:12 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 19:21:59
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
As for underpowered it was the case even before Commodore went bust. Other vice way did people spend so much money on upgrades?


which wasnt for no reason at the given time, now you try to continue to support what went busted, within your narrow limits, and try to tell people, that this compares, heck is more valuable to what has been achieved, when amiga was prosperous standard.

Quote:
Well it takes skills to program slow computers; way do you think C64 demos are so popular.

So you know how C64 demos are created, well they are written on a PC using Microsoft Virtual Studio, then they test the demos in a C64 Emulator, they don't actually use the C64 for productivity. The same thing has happened to classic Amiga.

A slow CPU is just a challenge, to developers, just like 4K demos is challenge to keep programs small.


this all applies to pcs of today as well. there is even 4k demos as far as i know, only that those system take full advantage of complete driver architecture there is, something os4 hardware can only dream of. do i really need to explain to you why there is no os4 demoscene?? try to think yourself, instead of trying to blame amiga of its limitations.

Last edited by wawa on 26-Oct-2015 at 07:22 PM.

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Kicko 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 19:41:08
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2004
Posts: 5009
From: Sweden

I used to watch demos back in the 90s on pre os4 time but as theres not much to see for os4 i lost interest in the demo scene. There is ofcourse time i see some demos but thats mostly when someone shows on facebook and theres youtube video for it. Both amiga/pc etc.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 19:51:35
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@wawa

Quote:
this all applies to pcs of today as well. there is even 4k demos as far as i know, only that those system take full advantage of complete driver architecture there is, something os4 hardware can only dream of.


Exactly there are more than enough developers, they don't need to worry about video, 3d or some other essential API or program, if just look at what I worked on lately on AmigaOS4, last year and this year was actively, developing mplayer for AmigaOS4, now I'm working on implementing Allegro5. If I was on windows platform, I won't worry about mplayer or Allegro5, just go to some web site and download it, and install it.

Before mplayer, spent lot time updating Basilisk II to use Composition, because it was this new killer feature in AmigaOS4.1.

If you are classic developer, you do not need to worry about that, hardware is too slow for video and making a demo or game for specific chipset, AGA or OCS, the API has not changes in years, nothing to update or improve.

The community is tiny even sum up all people in all camps (Classic, MOS, OS4, AROS, WinUAE, PowerUP, WarpUP, Anithlon), its nothing compared to Linux community, this is really is a small cult.

Developers on OS4 is spending their time updating stuff. While developers on AGA/OCS are just playing around.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Oct-2015 at 07:52 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 20:02:06
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Developers on OS4 is spending their time updating stuff. While developers on AGA/OCS are just playing around.


and that "updating stuff" for no particular reason is nothing like "playing around", even if it involves less fun? what you write is common knowledge. if your favourite is working on mplayer port for os4, im fine.

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broadblues 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 20:06:14
#27 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@thread

Nice demo.

@wawa @ Nutz

why don't you take your pointless arguing to PM and not polute yet another thread with it.



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wawa 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 20:18:18
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@broadblues

right. im off

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Overflow 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 20:20:39
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1628
From: Norway

@AmigaOldskooler

Hope to see a production from you

You targetting A500/68000 or all out 68060?

With WinUAE I guess hardware isnt an issue anymore.

I remember Mavey from Potion asking around for 68060 accelerator on http://ada.untergrund.net/ last year, so I guess some prefer the actual hardware.
Sadly no production from him listed in Pouet since early 2000

Last edited by Overflow on 26-Oct-2015 at 08:21 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 20:26:08
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@broadblues

Sure, but before I do may I ask you why you have you not made any demo last year

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Oct-2015 at 11:16 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Oct-2015 at 10:57 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Oct-2015 at 08:28 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Oct-2015 at 08:28 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Oct-2015 at 08:28 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Oct-2015 at 08:26 PM.

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broadblues 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 20:33:02
#31 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@NutsAboutAmiga

I'm not that into demo coding, and the time I have available has been used to code applications.

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kickstart 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 21:12:12
#32 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2014
Posts: 54
From: Suomi

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
Users of 68k amigas made demos because they have no other options. 68k amigas are to crappy and underpowered. On ppc amigas You may do more interesting things than making useless apps displaying something without interaction with user. Thats why demos are not popular on ppc.


Stupidity of the month, if ppc developers can make all those interesting things, why this "amigas" havent "interesting things"?

Last edited by kickstart on 26-Oct-2015 at 09:13 PM.

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Hans 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 21:36:26
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@Breed

Yeah, I saw some OS4 demos in the early days. May have or not been an AGA port. But I didn't see much after that. I guess programming PC hardware under an AmigaOS just isn't the same as programming actual Amiga hardware and breaking the limits. Even though it uses chunky.

There have been one or two more recent ones, like Crisot's Universe#3 demo, but yes, they're few and far between.

I challenged developers to create demos using CompositeTags() after I created the Composite3DDemo. Back then compositing was very under used, and my thought at the time was that it would be an interesting challenge for people to see how far they could push that one function. The response was generally along the lines of "I'm not doing anything until we have more modern 3D drivers." So, a general lack of interest to even try.

Ah well, we did get some interesting stuff eventually even if they aren't demos. Thellier used the ideas from Composite3DDemo in Wazp3D, and Daytona675x eventually took things a few steps further in Wings Battlefield (amongst other things). **

@NutsAboutAmiga
Quote:
Well the NG users are people who are looking to the future, not the past, I think most NG developers are more interested in getting there applications working and modernized then, making something that has not really have any practical application beyond being nice for the eye.

Very true.

However, a demo can have practical use too. Crisot's Universe#3 is a tech. demo of a Warp3D based 3D graphics engine that he's working on. We haven't heard any news from him about that engine for a while, though. I hope that he will finish it off and create a game with it some day.

Hans

** Mustn't forget Amiboing's 2D games which make good use compositing too.

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Crumb 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 21:44:18
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@kickstart

I'll answer your rethoric question because maybe our friend nuts4amiga doesn't see it clearly: from demosceners P.O.V. there's nothing interesting about programming an old pentiumIV peecee with old graphic cards (equivalent to these "modern" ppc amigas). From the OS side there's nothing interesting about coding for a Win95-like OS (stability&memoryprotection wise) like OS4 is.

c64 coders try to use the best development tools for them. If that happens to require crosscompiling good for them, using non optimal tools would be masochism.

I find funny that some OS4 users think that executing linux ports on an old pc motherboard with a PPC running a memory protection-less OS is as revolutionary or interesting as a real Amiga was in 1985-1995 (that is: the one with custom chips and 68k). Any 68k Amiga is hundreds of times more interesting and revolutionary than these peecees with ppc.

The "best" OS4 apps are ports from other OSes and these ports usually run worse than in its original OS (Linux, MorphOS, etc...).

BTW, in 2015 people buy Amigas to run 68k demos. I bought a c64 with u1541-2 to run demos. I don't see sceners rushing to buy peecees with PPC. I will buy more hardware for my real Amigas. In contrast I have noticed more A500 productions, A500 is definitely more alive (real or emulated) than any OS4 machine.

PS: Any user who wants to see how AmigaOS would look today can buy an old PPC Mac (that will run rings in speed around these so called "os4 machines") and try out MorphOS. It's cooler, more stable, faster and if you machine breaks you won't feel the need to do harakiri.

Last edited by Crumb on 26-Oct-2015 at 09:45 PM.
Last edited by Crumb on 26-Oct-2015 at 09:45 PM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 22:37:18
#35 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 762
From: Unknown

@kickstart

It is simple.
Making software which do nothing like demos is simply stupid.
Use mplayer instead.

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kickstart 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 22:52:45
#36 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2014
Posts: 54
From: Suomi

@ppcamiga1

You are trolling i supose, if not, people like you should be banned from amiga forums, its simple.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 23:00:23
#37 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 762
From: Unknown

@Crumb

Something like PC with ppc simply not exist, if you believe in something like that sorry someone fool you.
Computer either has x86 compatybile cpu and it is pc either has not x86 and it is not pc.
Amiga 500 was great but 68k Amigas made after 1992 where underpowered ovepriced crap and are not interesting.
Amigas made after commodore are more interesting bacause they are one hundred times faster than 68k crap and you can do more on it.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 26-Oct-2015 23:21:51
#38 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 762
From: Unknown

@kickstart

It is really too difficult to you to understand that making app that does nothing may be not interesting?
You are trolling i supose, if not, people like you should be banned from amiga forums, its simple.

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kickstart 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 27-Oct-2015 0:06:01
#39 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2014
Posts: 54
From: Suomi

@ppcamiga1

You talk about overpriced and underpowered computers and defends a computer like X1000?

Its nice to have useful applications but dont despise the scene.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Demoscene
Posted on 27-Oct-2015 6:15:11
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Hans

Quote:
However, a demo can have practical use too. Crisot's Universe#3 is a tech. demo of a Warp3D based 3D graphics engine that he's working on. We haven't heard any news from him about that engine for a while, though. I hope that he will finish it off and create a game with it someday.


I don't disagree with this, but most demos are just reproduction of what they did last year. I remember back in 1980's I saw new things each time, a new demo came out.

Making demos or game, you learn a lot from it, I'm not saying it has no value.

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