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pavlor 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 1-Oct-2017 9:04:29
#121 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8416
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
tv paint is a whole different cathegory. its a 24 bit package that has been programmed in such a flexible way,


TvPaint UI is based on DPaint, even keyboard shortcuts are the same in many cases.

Quote:
so its solved when using ms windows or linux.


Quite broad definition of NG Amiga...

Quote:
tabor wont give you any full experience of both worlds.

Quote:
it wont be enough what the net demands today


Well, my needs are rather limited: checking Amiga related pages, editing Wikipedia, reading news etc. Tabor is far more capable than that.

Quote:
and neither it will be enough to satisfactory replace the genuine amiga


WinUAE replaced my Amiga years ago, Tabor will be huge improvement there.

Quote:
where is the selling point?


Even expensive X1000 was sold out, A1222 will sell like hot cakes.

Last edited by pavlor on 01-Oct-2017 at 09:05 AM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 1-Oct-2017 9:28:05
#122 ]
Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 41
From: Unknown

Important difference between Apple transition to x86 and Olaf "Schönweiss" Schickelgruber and other ppchaters plans was that Apple transition to x86 was slow evolution with many soft passes from one step to another.
Nobody force Apple developers and users to throw away everything and start from zero.
First there was transition from 68k to ppc.
When majority of apps was rewriten, Apple start transition from old os to unix.
When majority of apps was rewriten, Apple start transition from old mac gui to next gui.
etc, etc.
On Amiga quite opposite. Clown from Amiga DE and AROS camps, and other ppchaters always want to make revolutions.
Thats amiga way to x86 failed.



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ppcamiga1 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 1-Oct-2017 9:39:34
#123 ]
Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 41
From: Unknown

Before I buy mac mini I believe many idiots and scumbags that Amiga NG IS EVIL.
Chipset is important, NG Amigas are pc with cpu other than x86.
This all was crap.
After I buy mac mini and install MOS on it I found it is wonderfull Amiga, many times better than these made by commdore after a500.
It was Amiga about I always dreaming.
All of amiga software which I use on a1200 works.
And works better than on a1200.
Also works better than uae on fast pc.
Amiga NG is something than gunnar von boehn promise many years ago but never deliver.
Of course games, demos, and crappy productivity software which relies on chipset not working.
But do You really need 8 bit sound software?
Or software for presentation like scala, when none oy Your friends have vhs player?
Or graphics software which works only in 640x512 resolution?
I do not need this crap.
Demos I cay watch on yt.
And all worth of use Amiga productivity software works onAmiga NG like charm.


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Overflow 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 1-Oct-2017 9:52:34
#124 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1387
From: Norway

@ppcamiga1

I think you are being a bit over the top with the "hate" rhetoric you assign to other people.

I, like most others, enjoy Amiga (and C64) because of our youth. We have fond memories of it, and we have different ways of re-living it. Some goes the way of the "purist", which sticks to the raw basic hardware they knew from the 80s and 90s, and work within those limitations.
Then you have some, like me, that enjoy AOS (both 3.x and 4.x), but dont mind using accelerators or FPGAs to accomplish a more modern userexpirience.
Its like those car shows on TV; sometimes they keep the car in original configuration, and sometimes they pimp it (from minor tweaks to off the scale). Computers are no different.

I, like many others, got both AOS 3.x and 4.x, but for now Ive limited myself to only 4.x in WinUAE. 4.x is quite nice, but its something about the pricetag and uncertainty of the platform that has made me hesitant. Hyperion feels very slow in developing the OS, and the PPC hardware is quite expensive (I can afford it, but), altho Tabor might change that. Then it comes down to the design bottlenecks of the motherboard, and how that affects maximum potential performance.

So, for now Ive ended up sticking to AOS 3.x, not because of hate, but cause it was a mere 150 dollar investment that got me a highperforming 680x0 machine/FPGA with RTG and more memory Ive been used to. And a very active IRC channel you can get feedback from daily.

Do I wish PPC and AOS4.x the best? Yes, and I think many agrees with me there, even if they havent joined that particular branch.

As for AROS being clowns. Take Windows, IOS, Linux etc. Many options amongst many users. At the end of the day, a computer is a tool, and if AROS provide X people the tool they want/need, then great.
Also, we are all aware of all the legal uncertainty regarding AOS3.x development if you want more modern features. AROS gives people one way to completely avoid that mess.

Final comment;

Im currently moving from Windows and being very "spread out" on the internet with information, and moving to Linux with security distro. Not because I have anything to hide per see, but cause I dont like the oligarchy/monopoly development I see in society as a whole.
I even take it to my dailylife (and so are more and more of the people I know). I purchase food directly from the farmer or local bakeries. I purchase computer hardware directly from people like Kipper2k etc where the money goes to the manufacturer directly, which in turn will use his/her money locally, not stashed away in a tax heaven.

So yes, I DO actually want to be in a position where I can use AOS 3.x or AROS for all my daily needs, but in the meantime, I stick to Linux.

And before you think I sit here with tinfoil on my head when typing this I do realise that what I do personally has NO effect spesifically, but as I alluded to above, change happens locally. My attitude is rubbing off on alot of people around me, and I talk to people/friends in the local goverment about these things. Changing what you dont like on a local level is the way to go.

Wow, thats on topic, then off topic and then God knows where I ended up with this post.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 1-Oct-2017 10:18:40
#125 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10690
From: Norway

@ppcamiga1

I think what is missing is Basic programming language, on that note I see AMOS programmers completing about lack of 8bit graphics, pretty funny. As AMOS uses 6bit graphics, when they are advised to learn C or BlitzBasic is see some resistance.

Anyway you can't just make a AMOS interpreter, AMOS is depends on this things:

Color cycling.
Rainbow effects.
Changing screen resolution at point on screen (Lowres + Hires + Interlaced).
Half-bright effects, by playing with planar
Dual Play-fields.
Different colors on different parts of the screen.

Without this tings, I don't think you call it AMOS, the language designed around the Amiga hardware. And so you need recreate how hardware works to, free the language from the hardware. And that’s a bit silly, but doable.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Oct-2017 at 10:38 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Oct-2017 at 10:22 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Oct-2017 at 10:20 AM.

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Srtest 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 1-Oct-2017 16:24:11
#126 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 156
From: Israel, Haderah

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
One thing is clear we not fully taking advantage of new hardware, there are thing that is not fully optimized yet.


This is something that needs to be clarified for someone like me. Does optimisation entails pushing a few more fps out of the old gpu/cpu combo? When I look at the MadVR algorithm working between the gpu and the cpu (where the gpu is more important), then an optimisation seems to entail that of the design for delivering a specific thing like video playback and in a certain way not just outputing it.

Quote:
there like 1000 devices that run UAE, but there is no future in looking back.


Yes but none of them do it like scummvm does it with its basic concept. If you take what I said in the previous paragraph and translate it to emulation you might also take emulation to a level of streamlining (hate that word but is necessary sometimes) that presents sort of an "amiga player", but now you also need to tie it to hardware and while it is an interesting idea (emulation card) we are choked full of ideas right now with little implemetations so I guess If you can do it then do it.

Quote:
AMD graphics better for modern program (3D Graphics).


You know, for me that is vague. The whole 3d concept this days. When you do a survey between pc games what is the most important thing for them they always respond "gfx", yet they continue to buy hardware that does nothing other than give them a few more fps that they don't really need, as the human eye almost never catches it beyond 60fps. That is becaue it is chasing something that isn't there: what is 3d?

Back in the old days, 3d for me was babylon 5 and lightwave (even if it wasn't realtime). It had a wow factor based on its time combined with some brilliant directing. Sometimes I think to myself "what is the best game I have ever played" and a name that pops up is Deus Ex, a 3d game that was presented as a fps but was a deep rpg. Do I remember anything about the gfx of a game I consider maybe the best ever? no. Not even close to the wonderful backgrounds of Baldur's Gate 2. You take something like shadow of the beast and even though the gameplay could have been a little bit different it had that cultural/art feel and multimedia all-around effect a work of computerized culture should have, but this is an extreme example as it's more complicated.

Why is it that when the Babylon 5 creator had an option to do more in that world he denied it because of lack of budget? because what you could do once with an amiga and get a wow factor, now you need a whole department of cgi. Otherwise you might go a specific art direction like the game Psychonauts by Tim Schafer (Monkey Island fame) or do cell-shading like Boderlands. I just can't remember a "realistic 3d gfx" of a game I loved even if you forced me.

Instead, when you talk about video playback you can actually get something special with hardware and software we have today and have it in your home.

Quote:
There is not a lot options on Amiga, on Linux there OSS, Alsa and PulseAudio, RoarAudio.


Thank god we don't have any of those! talk about an unneeded level of being complicated.

Quote:
you be limited to the stereo audio output, not DTS, no Surround Sound.


Again, one's need to go further here: on the pc I have DDlive and DTS-Interactive but what are those? they don't have an impact other than making eveything digital on the fly and sending it out to a receiver or speakers. On the X1k I'm using a PCIe Joli@ sound card which can output DTS audtio via PCM and is currently my favorite choice for playing music. What I would like is for an amiga player to get some of that Audacious interpolation functionality.

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
At least with the likes of the Vampire, it's an SoC. It's not designed to compete with the Radeon HD nor nVidia's desktop


What are you doing here? it's exactly like comparing the classic amiga with the cpus that came after it - not a valid playground but 2 different ones. It's even a bit like comparing the cpu like a power cpu with the gpu, especially since while the gpu becomes very importatnt you still can't say it's all about it. It's about the relations right now and if you have a smart way to to it in software. A good video streamer has enough of everything to also use a variation of linux to give you basic functions. It can even come before the os boots up to get you to just stream movies if that is what you want to do for the next 2 hours. If I was you I would be looking at a different direction thinking about finding a way to integrate a uvd, only then you get to point where it might not be feasible based on the previous version of the amiga os.

@pavlor
Quote:
Note I don´t see any advantages of the old Amiga design in our time.


When I look at the way I have my hdtv setup with the smart MadVR renderer feeding of the relations between a new gpu and an old cpu It kind of reminds me of the old ways: AmigaOS a smart software presentation of an optimum design of various components. Sure, what I describe is only a fraction of what the old design could do and the various fields it could handle but in the barebones "only in your mind" essence, it's similiar.

@Overflow
Quote:
@ppcamiga1

I think you are being a bit over the top with the "hate" rhetoric you assign to other people.


It's interesting that when your 68k/vampire/whatever comrades go for the power-based A1 using the exact same rethoric it doesn't seem to bother you that much. I guess some can dish it out but cannot take it.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 1-Oct-2017 19:04:14
#127 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10690
From: Norway

@Srtest

Does optimisation entails pushing a few more fps out of the old gpu/cpu combo?

I'm not sure I'm expert on this, but next frame is often composed of previous frame, the things that change is new stuff.

so lets say you did not need upload full 720/1080p image to output 1080p image, what if you only needed the new stuff, let graphic cards GPU move the data, and add the new stuff, and finally correct the image from error in image after decompression algorithm.
Imagining moving the decoding process to GPU, moving the image correction to GPU, and reducing the amount of data that needs to be transferred to GPU.

You be able to display videos with lot less powerful CPU.
Quote:
Yes but none of them do it like scummvm does it with its basic concept. If you take what I said in the previous paragraph and translate it to emulation you might also take emulation to a level of streamlining (hate that word but is necessary sometimes) that presents sort of an "amiga player", but now you also need to tie it to hardware and while it is an interesting idea (emulation card) we are choked full of ideas right now with little implemetations so I guess If you can do it then do it.


What I mean is that what was yesterday is yesterday, you present it wrap it or cook it up, well it the same thing, in some ways it has to be what it was to be what we expect.
Quote:
You know, for me that is vague. The whole 3d concept this days. When you do a survey between pc games what is the most important thing for them they always respond "gfx", yet they continue to buy hardware that does nothing other than give them a few more fps that they don't really need, as the human eye almost never catches it beyond 60fps. That is because it is chasing something that isn't there: what is 3d?


yes but it not about number of FPS's it about number of triangles you can draw, how complex your 3D objects can be, on the screen and how many 3D objects you can have, how realistic it looks. Can we have movie quality games, where you don't see the difference between actor and 3d object.

Quote:
Instead, when you talk about video playback you can actually get something special with hardware and software we have today and have it in your home.


The hardware might be able to do it, I think a lot can be gained by understand how hardware decoding works, and maybe we can get lot more out what we have.

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kolla 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 1-Oct-2017 19:59:20
#128 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 685
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ppcamiga1

Apple’s transition to x86 was no transition.

Before OSX was finally released on PPC it was called Rhapsody, and was running on x86. The real transition was going from x86 to PPC, not the other way around. How many years was there between OSX was first released on PPC till they switched (back) to x86? Not many. Do you think Apple “forgot” about x86 during thise few years? No, of course not, with the base for their useland constantly being “ported” from FreeBSD, and OSX always existing on x86 since the Rhapsody days, internally being developed on x86 as well as PPC, the “transaition” back to x86 could happen over night. It was also a welcomed change for all application developers, who could finally get away from all the oddities associated with running on PPC (endianess being one)

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Srtest 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 1-Oct-2017 21:01:19
#129 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 156
From: Israel, Haderah

@NutsAboutAmiga
Quote:
what if you only needed the new stuff, let graphic cards GPU move the data, and add the new stuff, and finally correct the image from error in image after decompression algorithm.


This is like surface level optimizations in 3d gfx, which brings to question another issue I discovered when talking with Hans about Nova, that the barriers between gfx and video are not that clear because of shaders. From what I know about video playback experts like on the avsforum, they usually don't go for shaders because of principles of IQ and that is something I know that modern gfx cards do a lot of stuff in regard to the quality of output that are less than optimal to say the least. I think they are optimized from the beginning to favour performance.

Afterwards you are suggesting a level of post-processing so check out H.265 or HEVC on youtube it offers better compression without a loss in quality (even improves it). From what I've seen on os4.1 That is codec dependent so it's interesting if this can be made into a generic way that affects everything in the style of the MadVR renderer. This is very off-topic however sometimes you have to go there. There is a question about our current crop of power cpus if they are up to the task. There's another question about multithreading and multicore support having an affect on video performance and I know for a fact that only recently the pc world and all those smart devices have started to really take advantage of multiple processes in decoding, video rendering, etc.

Quote:
moving the image correction to GPU


That is something current gfx cards don't do well because there isn't a demand for it. That is something a streamer like DuneHD does extremely well (better than a lot of very expensive a/v receivers) because with streamers there is a demand to get a home entertainment system at your disposal.

Quote:
you present it wrap it or cook it up


Sometimes to move forward you have to carry a good backpack that can hold a few essentials or maybe even better, you can wear a jacket with deep pockets so you don't need a backpack. In amigalands essentials are what some might wrongly consider a luxury because this is also about feelings and motivations for us and I think when it's this way it means it's the right way (I won't say amiga ). Think about the coolness factor of running colonization on the workbench gui. I see it being about a deeper built-in composition engine, however, dependent on the ability of 3d-oriented hardware to display it.

Quote:
how realistic it looks


The answer to that can't be strictly mathematical and the pursue of realism in gaming brings me much more to the place of perception than computation. I remember seing the dvd of The Shining my dad bought and catching a behind the scene interview with Jack Nicholson where he explained the idea of realism in acting: people want it to be real but what is interesting is real so he has to capture that unique performance that you'll remember. I keep thinking about adventure games and how much flak they got for the last 2 decades for daring to be 2.5 d or 3d objects on 2d backgrounds. Isn't cell-shading a form of 2d on 3d? I think a lot of those adventure games are more realistic than what came after Doom. If it's merely a market-based question or because I'm just one guy then of course you should pursue what will benefit this platform and that is a question for the powers that be around here.

Quote:
Can we have movie quality games


Why? and do you remember the fmv adventures that amiga had a glance of with MYST? It's funny to think about those adventures like the Tex Murphy series nowadays. That was a time when they wanted to incorporate real actors to a funny result.

Quote:
The hardware might be able to do it, I think a lot can be gained by understand how hardware decoding works, and maybe we can get lot more out what we have.


I'm glad we are thinking here about the same thing. Then the question arises why are we focusing on games as far as developments of api are concerned and if the situation of the video core of os4.1 can improve regarding video decoding/rendering. It seems like something we can use right now and it can also test the ability of the cpu in providing an adequate base for it.

@kolla
Quote:
who could finally get away from all the oddities associated with running on PPC (endianess being one)


Curious, I can find on the web various reports of independent developers who experience very similiar things on the x86/cisc isa while claiming that they prefer working on other architectures.

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Srtest 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 2-Oct-2017 13:41:27
#130 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 156
From: Israel, Haderah

Just to make a couple of things clearer because I didn't mean anything like challanging the entire mainstream, saying somebody here is out of touch or something or reinventing the wheel if you prefer.

[What I meant by]

"Nuts: how realistic it looks

Me: The answer to that can't be strictly mathematical and the pursue of realism in gaming brings me much more to the place of perception than computation.

Nuts: Can we have movie quality games

Me: Why?

[and]

Me: I'm glad we are thinking here about the same thing. Then the question arises why are we focusing on games as far as developments of api are concerned."

was not to say that something that is being done is wrong. It's just that here is a perspective in looking at what we are and what we can do going forward. I have a snes emulator set-up and there were good games on the snes. There are very few games that give me that cultural multimedia feeling of a shadow of the beast on amiga. This can be something, a lesson from our heritage that can teach us. Being alternative in my book is something that you can't just stop thinking about if you have tastes in things in life. In the practical situation we are in we have to pick and choose.

If we are using the current power cpus because they represent 20 years of transition for a platform that was intertwined with 68k cisc, they might change the way you perceive the function of the cpu in getting you where you need to be right now. That is why you can't separate the cpu from the gpu in this discussion and the ability of the software/drivers/os implementations to work between them. You can say that the games/gfx api should be targeted at games in the style of what they are doing in the indie market (which was greatly inspired by the old-school games on amiga and old consoles).

We can be a platform for single developers of games who would never have the funds to fully produce their creation or simply don't want interference with their artistic direction by executives. There are some gems right now (Braid, Don't Starve, Armikrog) that require a level of gfx we can manage if we target that level so it can also provides the coolness and cultural gems like the ones we remember so it's not about nostalgia anymore. Isn't it weird that something like Deus Ex that might be the best ever has gfx that looks so similiar to everything else of that time because of the Unreal engine? It's funny because I can actually remember the first Unreal but nothing else that used the same engine unless it was a masterpiece like Deus Ex. I would like the tech experts here to explain the technology behind a lot of the indie titles that don't require massive engines and 4.2ghz quads to be great in this day and age. Can we have the newest Ron Gilberts's Thimbleweed Park (for expample) ?

Last edited by Srtest on 02-Oct-2017 at 01:46 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 02-Oct-2017 at 01:45 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 2-Oct-2017 22:28:35
#131 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10690
From: Norway

@Srtest

I was going to say something about streaming idea, well it works for PS4 games, lot higher resolution then let says old Amiga game, so yes, possible, you need to compress video instantly, send it over the internet, and the joy-pad inputs back to host computer over the internet, I was pretty amazed about how that worked on PS4. But I keep wondering if might not work so well on let's say on games like PorjectX, where you really have not lot time react, people used to complain about USB being too slow, and sticking to PS/2 mouse and keyboard's. Anyway games on demand well it has not been horrible good success so far, even if is doable on the most powerful consoles.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Oct-2017 at 02:11 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Oct-2017 at 10:28 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 4-Oct-2017 15:53:51
#132 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8637
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Srtest

Quote:
If I ever need to make a list discussing missed opportunities in amigaland based on ideas alone the DE would be at the top.


In an Amiga context it could be asked and would have been asked at the time, what's Amiga about it? Sure it shared some ideas, but so did Linux, which had no direct relation to Amiga. Perhaps it would have been better if AmigaDE/Elate was left to its own. They might have got somewhere with it without Amiga involvement.

Then again, Elate was very similar to Java. It loaded and ran code for a virtual CPU compiled to a native host. Looks like Java won. Except now JavaScript is taking over in browsers where they decided to go back to text and compile that. That's a bit like running code in a BASIC interpreter over code from a BASIC compiler. Doesn't make sense.

Quote:
1. The inability to say what was the mt-32 when thinking about a sound card. What was Paula?


I must say I Googled MT-32 and replied over the first hit I got. Which wasn't exactly a sound card. More like a USB sound box for a PC these days. What was Paula? It was an audio, UART and disk controller.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_MT-32

Paula is said to be both good and bad at the time for what it did. The digitised sounds were good, and from an engineering polint of view, would be a lot more simple to implement than an AM/FM synthesizer. Like comparing CLUT to a framebuffer. The limited channels bad.

For the price of a whole computer, I think the Paula fairs well, at least if you compare it with a Fairlight CMI. The '82 model had 8-bit audio, in '85 it got 16-bit. But it had only 16KB per voice. The Amiga had slightly more memory, including for audio, so it could certainly duplicate that to an extent. It just missed out on having 8 stereo tracks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairlight_CMI

Quote:
2. What is retro? it comes from the fashion world, doesn't it? it means fashion is a cycle and what was once cool can be cool again


We can also apply it to cars. And what ever else goes in cycles. Nokia reboot as one example.

Quote:
All those pixelated feel retro attempts happening today, do they feel amiga? I don't remember ever seeing this heavy pixelated look.


That how I felt about Doom. There was this big deal over it. So I play and go up against a wall. What's this crap?! It went pixelated. That never happened in any 2d Amiga games. I also thought they could have just stored bigger textures. It wasn't real 3d either, just fake 3d, like in a "modern" 3d movie. Just 2d layers of objects in 3d space. The cheap one. I'm sure they will make "real" 3d movies one day when the layers have 3d depth.

Unfortunately the Amiga copied this Doom idea. And all the 3d Amiga games were poisoned. With the crap up against the wall blockyness. And fake brick walls with no depth and fake paper candles replicated. That was taking it too far. Just because the PC 3d games didn't have real 3d textures for real 3d surfaces like brick walls didn't mean the Amiga coders should have copied the fakeness. I wrote a very basic proof of concept once with AMOS BASIC of rendering a 2d curved texture wall in 3d space, with a warped sheet rendered in 3d, so didn't know why all the smart people were putting together all these 3d games with fake flat brick walls. No wonder the Amiga games looked crap! Apart from the obvious reasons.

Last edited by Hypex on 04-Oct-2017 at 03:59 PM.

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BigD 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 4-Oct-2017 16:48:34
#133 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4077
From: UK

@Hypex

Doom for me was more about the fluid fast paced motion. That is why Alien Breed 3D was the Amiga's response to that type of game because even though blocky it was smooth gameplay. The audio and multiplayer were also a big part of Doom and Alien Breed 3D. I still think those opening door/use lift, key collect and red alien squelch sound effects in Alien Breed 3D are iconic! Same with the doors on Doom, the shotgun sound and Arch-vile wail!!

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