Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
6071 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
» Home
» Features
» News
» Forums
» Classifieds
» Links
» Downloads
Extras
» OS4 Zone
» IRC Network
» AmigaWorld Radio
» Newsfeed
» Top Members
» Amiga Dealers
Information
» About Us
» FAQs
» Advertise
» Polls
» Terms of Service
» Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Ports: 1024,5555, 6665-6669
SSL port: 6697
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

Who's Online
5 crawler(s) on-line.
 127 guest(s) on-line.
 0 member(s) on-line.



You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 DWolfman:  7 mins ago
 cncparts:  1 hr 40 mins ago
 saipaman4366:  2 hrs 26 mins ago
 Beajar:  2 hrs 45 mins ago
 Rob:  2 hrs 48 mins ago
 DiscreetFX:  3 hrs 50 mins ago
 agami:  3 hrs 51 mins ago
 RobertB:  4 hrs 11 mins ago
 OlafS25:  5 hrs 1 min ago
 Bruce72:  5 hrs 2 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga General Chat
      /  20 years Amiga powerpc
Register To Post

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 Next Page )
PosterThread
pavlor 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 26-Sep-2017 17:10:42
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
The only one I recall is the AmigaOS4/x86


That could be OS4 "project" announced by Gateway2000 in 1998: Brief WoA press conference report

Gateway times were full of bold announcements - OS3.5 announced, then cancelled, then resurrected..., OS4/OS5 became AmigaOE... Even Bill McEwen´s Amiga.Inc looks like company with clear vision in comparison.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Samurai_Crow 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 26-Sep-2017 17:11:34
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2320
From: Minnesota, USA

Will the next 10 years be enough to reverse the trend of the past 20? Let's hope so. As far as a next generation OS, I would prefer a hosted Amiga software layer like hosted AROS running on top of BeOS or Haiku. The original OS made sense only with custom chips or their equivalent.

As far as Amiga DE was concerned, it was just a bridge between technology levels. The fact that it never came out for the 68k made it completely pointless.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Srtest 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 26-Sep-2017 20:32:08
#63 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

@Hypex

Quote:
Against how many Amigas with an RTG card and 16-bit card? It wasn't common. For professional only really.


All that 16/8/32 bit is sometimes overrated. The mt-32 is a sought after product to this day and is sold like a new sound card because it's special. That is from 1987 in case people didn't know and most people couldn't afford it back then. I mean we can talk for days about audio receivers, speakers and cables and never talk about sound bits.

Quote:
Direct X 9 was introduced while Windows 98 was current, and Direct X 9 apps slap an Amiga silly.
According to a TrevorDick interview the guy who worked on the DirectX API was inspired by the Amiga so that slap hurts even more.


Well, maybe directx was "inspired" by amiga, it was still a big bottleneck that created this monolithic meh api that was used primarly to crush the competition of glide and the start of opengl, like evertyhing that originated from evilcorp.

Quote:
AGA? Too late, too little, too slow - and no 3D.


I might be in the minority here but I liked aga very much. I still remember the day i got the A4000 and put in Simon the Sorcerer. 3D today is still awful! even after all those years! For a time there it went the right way with matrox, 3dfx, ati and nvidia when people still cared about IQ rather than getting more fps in this 3d shooter. Well, maybe tesselation finally improved the situation yet for me it's only marginal. Because the people who do this think it's all about mathematics and algorithms while anyone that stands under a tree looking up can say it's about perception. 2D on the Amiga was art and aga had a big part in it in my book. Vga might have been technically better while what we got on the amiga looked better. It still does.

Quote:
They are also to blame for giving us this little endian blot on computer society.


When you have something like linux that's supposed to be this conceptual alternative decide they no longer like big endian because of the consumer world and the monopoly that dictates that world, then I don't blame the ones who pushed for it because their machines used it.

Edit: Added something.

Last edited by Srtest on 26-Sep-2017 at 09:24 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 26-Sep-2017 at 09:23 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 26-Sep-2017 at 08:33 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hypex 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 27-Sep-2017 15:37:20
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@pavlor

Quote:
That could be OS4 "project" announced by Gateway2000 in 1998:


That sounds about right. These days an AmigaOS4 on x86 would be met with more welcome arms. Back then the hardware was still useful.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hypex 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 27-Sep-2017 15:38:47
#65 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
As far as Amiga DE was concerned, it was just a bridge between technology levels. The fact that it never came out for the 68k made it completely pointless.


AFAIK, it never came out for PPC either, Amiga PPC or AmigaOne PPC. Or on Mac for that matter.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
wawa 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 27-Sep-2017 15:50:09
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Hypex

lets simply forget marketing talk like that. who cares--

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hypex 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 27-Sep-2017 16:12:52
#67 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Srtest

Quote:
All that 16/8/32 bit is sometimes overrated. The mt-32 is a sought after product to this day and is sold like a new sound card because it's special. That is from 1987 in case people didn't know and most people couldn't afford it back then. I mean we can talk for days about audio receivers, speakers and cables and never talk about sound bits.


Having read some history I can't see how this was used as a PC soundcard for games. It's big and you can't stick it in your case with it being external. It's also expensive. I suppose it would crap over the Amiga. But an Amiga hooked to this should crap over a SoundBlaster. Even so it's not exactly a pure PCM sound chip.

The Amiga suffered in the later days not having 16-bit audio. More so without MIDI. And even the 16-bit sound cards for the Amiga weren't aimed at the average Amiga user. Most were for the pro market. I recall one had 8 hardware channels so could match a Falcon I suppose. But most only had one stereo channel tied to one output frequency so in that respect were inferior to the Amiga sound chip even. All they offered was 16-bit. Which wasnt a good enough upgrade against even the Amiga chip which mixed two channels at once with variable frequency and volume.

Quote:
Well, maybe directx was "inspired" by amiga, it was still a big bottleneck that created this monolithic meh api that was used primarly to crush the competition of glide and the start of opengl, like evertyhing that originated from evilcorp.


And OpenGL is said to be open.

Quote:
I might be in the minority here but I liked aga very much.


I liked it too. Against the 12-bit RGB of my A500 the 24-bit palette of my A1200 looked crisp. But it needed 16-bit sound.

Quote:
Vga might have been technically better while what we got on the amiga looked better. It still does.


IIRC VGA used an 18-bit palette for 256 colour mode. So comparable with HAM8. But it was also stuck at 256 colours. So having copper like raster interrupt splits wouldn't help it. It was faster with chunky but that's just about all it had over the Amiga. And being able to use a proper monitor.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
OlafS25 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 27-Sep-2017 16:17:46
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Hypex

I understand that in the 90s PPC was easier to "sell" to hardcore amigans than a X86 Amiga would have been. But finally it was a route to nowhere but I personal think most amiga users would not have accepted such a turn. Around 2002-2004 when the so called NG OSs became reality it was obvious that PPC was loosing the battle with the Intel/AMD-platform

Regarding AGA, I think adding Fastram would have made a feelable difference already. Of course AGA was not offering superior features compared to the PC graphic cards, resolutions were low and almost no professional mode if you wanted to use amigas for more than gaming but at least for games it offered similar capabilities than on PC. Not a big jump or revolution, too little too late but at least useful.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 27-Sep-2017 at 04:21 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
fishy_fis 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 27-Sep-2017 20:12:39
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

In regards to DirectX, y'all do realize its not a 3d api right?


People sure do seem to have opinions on things they dont even understand.
DirectX is made up of directdraw, directinput, directaudio, direct3d and so on.
Also it was dx6 where the Win32 apis overtook anything available to amiga-oid system, and unfortunately things havent progressed for us, we're still at that level while dx went on to almost define the industry. Even the biggest games using opengl use dx for every thing apart from gfx rendering.
As for the mt-32, its a sought after piece of retro hardware, thats where its value comes from. It was one of the better, and better supported pieces of sound hardware of the era. Makes it a collectable.

Now in regards to byte ordering, its not like le is unique to x86, and its what is achievable thats relevant beyond a pedantic stubbornness that the computer must behave like a restricted, self trained brain (thats to say the human brain is capable of its equivalents to both le and be, we mostly use the equivalent to be in western societies, but some use something more akin to le)

Last but not least,.... err, you do realize most vga cards had blitters and hardware scrolling right? The Amiga by this time had very little in the way of advantages (games both looked better and ran better than amiga versions). About the only hardware advantage left at that point was the dma channels for the chipset. Native support for 15khz screens was nice too.

By the early 90's the Amigas saving grace was the productivity software, plus the price. The tight knit between OS and hardware made it capable of things that on other systems would require more resources.
Given how weak (vs anything else new) the AmigaOS hardware is its a shame none of these things are present these days. Sure some of the "feel" is there, but thats soley down to the OS.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 27-Sep-2017 at 08:47 PM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 27-Sep-2017 at 08:31 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Beans 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 27-Sep-2017 22:35:12
#70 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 447
From: Bear Delaware USA

@fishy_fis

Let me get this straight, you don't think direct3d is 3D?

And you seem to be dismissing the point in an off-hand manner.
Texture compression, 2D and 3D drawing functions, MODERN gpu functions that the Amiga chipset has a very limited subset of.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
fishy_fis 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 27-Sep-2017 23:21:31
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@Beans

Care to show me where I said direct3d isnt 3d?
Has and is are different things.
Once again you twisted and contorted words just so you can make stupid comments that you yourself know are twisted and contorted.
As such my response will be to question what makes people behave that way ?
You already know the answers to what you've written, you know you're just trying to be arguementative and pedantic, you know I know why you're doing it, so why do it?
Youre smart enough to know the only consequence to that sort of stupidity is an arguement, or you looking transparent, so again, why?

Rhetorical, respond or not. Doubt I'll take a response seriously anyway. Entirely too predictable.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 27-Sep-2017 at 11:29 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Srtest 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 28-Sep-2017 2:50:49
#72 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

@Hypex

Quote:
As far as Amiga DE was concerned, it was just a bridge between technology levels. The fact that it never came out for the 68k made it completely pointless.

AFAIK, it never came out for PPC either, Amiga PPC or AmigaOne PPC. Or on Mac for that matter.


If I ever need to make a list discussing missed opportunities in amigaland based on ideas alone the DE would be at the top. I again will go to my ScummVM example here. Scummvm is what it is. It doesn't carry with it a piece of a larger whole. There isn't a version of it when if you use it you can think it can run everything the same way. However, it is extremely protable and fits almost any system. It's like having an inner/outer versions of the same thing. Like having a kernel and os layer when acutally the kernel is not the heart but a core that can be carried everywhere (in a software sense). I think that is what the DE or maybe amiga player could have been if you didn't want to go all the way amiga or simply wanted to carry the amiga way with you to objects techonology which weren't like the amiga.

@Hypex & @fishy_fis

Quote:
Even so it's not exactly a pure PCM sound chip.

As for the mt-32, its a sought after piece of retro hardware, thats where its value comes from. It was one of the better, and better supported pieces of sound hardware of the era. Makes it a collectable.


Your comments are very interesting to me because of 2 things:

1. The inability to say what was the mt-32 when thinking about a sound card. What was Paula? from a commercial stand point, the mt-32 happened when a known and big music/audio company like Roland decided to go into the computing business and managed to get a product that would normally cost a lot more for aspiring musicians. In a lot of ways it was like the amiga creation. The difference being that Roland was a big company that didn't know its audience and how to go small and commodore and amiga presented the A500 with its great all-around Paula chip. It's strength came not from being professionally used (like what the mt-32 line of products could do) but by being a tool for the amatuer and having a price tag that fits amatuers and those not yet knowing they wanted to create music.

2. What is retro? it comes from the fashion world, doesn't it? it means fashion is a cycle and what was once cool can be cool again. How does that translate to technology which seems to always move forward? That is when people come into play. People who appreciate music and sound and picture and video. People who have a special place in their heart for record players and voila - they are back! an analog music box like mt-32 meant more than most sound cards. Retro can also mean good. Digital doesn't mean good.

Quote:
And OpenGL is said to be open.

People sure do seem to have opinions on things they dont even understand.
DirectX is made up of directdraw, directinput, directaudio, direct3d and so on.


This confusion is exactly the point: It did 3d but it wanted to do it all so it will have a hand in everything like an octopus. The current version left so much of it behind as proof of this. You need to emulate directdraw with all sorts of hacks for older titles. Yes, I know modern gfx card do 2d via 3d, but this happened like most of those things because of what api was available and what the only software house that mattered, wanted to do. OpenGL at the end was open to those who had the funds or load of people and still it wasn't enough. Without phones today and all sorts of smart devices it would have stayed as yet another glide or something in the linux world. And why not talk about directsound? It couldn't touch EAX or A3D that actually did positioning dolby/dts style.

Quote:
I might be in the minority here but I liked aga very much.

I liked it too. Against the 12-bit RGB of my A500 the 24-bit palette of my A1200 looked crisp. But it needed 16-bit sound.

The Amiga by this time had very little in the way of advantages


All those pixelated feel retro attempts happening today, do they feel amiga? I don't remember ever seeing this heavy pixelated look. The Amiga display wasn't like that and if you configure your emulation correctly with scanlines, it stiil isn't this simple pixelated graphical pitch. Pixel art in my book is the amiga style so I don't know about advantages/disadvantages because this time, standing the test of time without needing that retro feel tells the story. I can't look at vga from that day without heavy scaling of scummvm or dosbox. You don't need nostalgia to enjoy the art of Shadow of the Beast on a scanlined amiga display. I don't think the pixelated display like on the snes can't be pretty. The somewhat pixelated Wonder Boy on the amiga (for example) which can seem like a bad port has its own strengths in terms of gfx direction like the fact that I can talk about its gfx direction, today.

Last edited by Srtest on 28-Sep-2017 at 12:44 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 28-Sep-2017 at 12:39 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Zylesea 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 28-Sep-2017 7:08:01
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@Hypex

I understand that in the 90s PPC was easier to "sell" to hardcore amigans than a X86 Amiga would have been. But finally it was a route to nowhere but I personal think most amiga users would not have accepted such a turn. Around 2002-2004 when the so called NG OSs became reality it was obvious that PPC was loosing the battle with the Intel/AMD-platform



It was obvious the day Apple announced their switch to x86. I was at a freescale seminar briefly after the announcent and they were really p*ssed and confirmed a huge uncertainty for ppc future development. It was okay to stll stay a while with ppc but tody ppc is dead. Unfortunately.
Future is x64 and ARM. Still ppc drives the majority of my computers (4 out of 8). It was a good time, but it's time to close this chapter.

_________________
My programs: via.bckrs.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pavlor 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 28-Sep-2017 7:30:48
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
but at least for games it offered similar capabilities than on PC.


No chunky modes means slower "3D" games like Doom. As Motorola´s CPU were 1-1.5 years behind Intel in performance, this weak point was even more noticeable. Note Jay Miner considered 3D must have feature for Amiga in 1989 interview... not important enough for Commodore.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
OlafS25 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 28-Sep-2017 8:42:38
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@pavlor

too little too late as I wrote

AGA was ready one year earlier, they should have introduced it asap

Instead they offered A600

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
OlafS25 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 28-Sep-2017 8:45:55
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Zylesea

it was 2005

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%27s_transition_to_Intel_processors

so in my view transition from PPC to X86 should have happened latest at this point and "NG" should have dropped legacy including full SMP and MP.

Today it is too late for that, at least regarding make a real difference in terms of users. The main problem today is missing modern development tools and software (both of course depend of each other)

Last edited by OlafS25 on 28-Sep-2017 at 08:47 AM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Srtest 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 28-Sep-2017 12:19:24
#77 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

What is the point in discussing what could have happened? I guess the same one in viewing the original amiga design as holly and everything that followed as mistakes. Just a big sack of mistakes and how everything could have happened differently. The fact of the matter that there was this over reaching force that used every trick it could to make itself dominant and to stay in business you had to eliminate all of your mistakes. All things considered, the move to a power-based platform was just as reasonable as anything that could have been chosen. Isn't the company that became the face of the x86 isa seriouslly considered moving away from it? Can you imagine amiga being the face of x86 while other went another way?

So yeah, a decision could have been made to make a clear target of 64 bit risc and stick with it. Would that have made things easier? maybe somewhat. The companies that won what have they made with the personal computing and espcecially the desktop oriented parts of that world? they have driven people away to consoles and phones and whatever with their mediocricy and establishing themselves as computing in the mind of the mainstream. Like google has established itself instead of the word combination called a "search engine" and used that platform to push its glorified search engine and facebook commentating app.

Another fact is that commodore never viewed the amiga as its baby like what came before it. If it have made the amiga its banner it might have survived and you can't really ask for more than survival considering the nothing that came after amiga in terms of developments and getting you excited beyond the ad campaign, so people moved to consoles even more than before. Remember the feeling you got when you bought an amiga and knew that for a couple of years you had a great machine and you don't have to worry? Think of the differences and similarities to the upgrade cycles of consoles.

@Zylesea
Quote:
I understand that in the 90s PPC was easier to "sell" to hardcore amigans


Amiga always stood for being an alternative in computing because it took that silicon graphics/pixar vibe of having a great unknown computing machine and made some of it available to the public, which in turn used it to create a powerhouse equal to that unreachable machine which only a few could have access to. How can it all be about the processor when the original design was about the relationship between the processor and the custom chips? My dad who has 50 years of experience in the field, made a prophecy that it will all become an intergrated system again like a home stereo or receiver and he was wrong as the gfx card is stronger than the cpu or at least it can't be simply intergrated. That also because of the amiga legacy and because of that you still have the option to buy a machine, maybe not x86, maybe from 10 years ago, put a gfx card and use it. For how longer? I see Jay Miner and RJ and all those guys and their spirit as trying to do it the right way whatever that seems at the time.

@OlafS25

Quote:
I"NG" should have dropped legacy including full SMP and MP.


Because that decision went elsewhere is the reason people still hold the amiga close and dear to their hearts. Talk about a bonehead decision that luckily wasn't made and I guess they took advice from other sources. The term "ng" is something I don't know who or what came up with it. I know what's current, not what's next.

Last edited by Srtest on 28-Sep-2017 at 12:30 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
wawa 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 28-Sep-2017 18:08:16
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Srtest

Quote:
What is the point in discussing what could have happened? I guess the same one in viewing the original amiga design as holly and everything that followed as mistakes.


i guess among the healthy options is the one when one feels attracted to the elements of genuine design. it may be just the philosophy of the opereating system or its api as well as the inductive development along the lines one can track down of the development of the original system.

Quote:
Amiga always stood for being an alternative in computing


once upon a time, not anymore of the follow ups today. it doesnt make sense to try to align by these princiles or even claim that.

Quote:
Because that decision went elsewhere is the reason people still hold the amiga close and dear to their hearts.


the public has been indosctribated with this kind of arguments. its not the customers that have came up with this.

Quote:
The term "ng" is something I don't know who or what came up with it. I know what's current, not what's next.


likely who tried to discredit the genuine amiga as "classic", to introduce the "ng" as valid successor rathe than just another option. whoever fell for it needs to deal with the problems of the platform most..

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pavlor 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 28-Sep-2017 19:14:37
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
likely who tried to discredit the genuine amiga as "classic",


Eh, conspiracy theories... If I remember correctly, "Amiga NG" term was introduced in Gateway times. "Classic" was (from mainstream point of view) obsolete then anyway.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
wawa 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 28-Sep-2017 19:22:04
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
Eh, conspiracy theories... If I remember correctly, "Amiga NG" term was introduced in Gateway times. "Classic" was (from mainstream point of view) obsolete then anyway.


whoever it was, its seems to be exactly the motivation i mind. all these wannabe next generation "amiga" substitute stunts had to reduce the credibility of the genuine platform in order to establish themselves as the valid replacement. so far all of them failed..

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 Next Page )

[ home ][ about us ][ privacy ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright (C) 2000 - 2019 Amigaworld.net.
Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle