@phoenixkonsole

Quote:

http://www.documentarytube.com/articles/europe-will-be-gone-by-2016--all-the-prophecies-by-bulgarian-prophetess-vanga : D

lol, 2066 – Muslims will try to invade Rome and will succeed in that. In an effort to free the ancient city and bring back Christianity to it, the US will use a climate weapon for the first time.

She's way off. Everyone know's we've been using climate weapons since 1966.
The tech from area 51 taught us how.

Plaz

@bison

I don't know about worse, as you will never convince me to vote for Trump.
But it is a quite dismal election year.
How are two candidates with approval ratings below 30% even qualified to run for office?

@iggy

Sadly even progressive media is failing to inform voters about Jill Stein.
Gary Johnson seems like a honest man, but he is for free flow of money into elections, just that donators have to be disclosed/public info.

So unless Bernie Sanders run as independent (which is highly unlikely since he has said openly that he would vote for Hillary if he isnt nominated by DNC), Jill Stein seems like the only good option.

@BigD

Quote:

It is the unelected (by direct EU citizen voting) quango called the European Council that is above the Parliament

Most members of the European Council (all except its President and President of the EC) are heads of their respective states/governments. They are elected by their own citizens/legislatures...

Quote:

Although the Council can delegate legislation forming powers to the Commission (which is accountable to the Parliament), the Council itself is above the Parliament. It really is a farce and wouldn't be a system the British people would tolerate being used for our national governance never mind an entire continent!!!

Take the European Council as collective head of EU. Now compare its powers and privileges with your own head of state.

Quote:

The Parliament should have the right to directly propose legislation themselves as they are elected by the citizens.

So, you want more power to EU institution and less power to EU states?

Quote:

The Council seems to have the last say on who gets nominated as President of the Commission and delegates legislative power to the Commission, the Commission initiates the drafting of most of the Directives and the Parliament has to beg for anything to get done despite having the mandate from the people! It is all topsy-turvy!!!

Parliament can refuse legislation it doesn´t like and even remove entire Commission. Sure, there is democratic deficit in legislation drafting process, but change you proposed would mean much more power to Parliament and less power to European Council (hence less power to states, as European Council is ultimate representation of member states).

@Overflow

Quote:

Jill Stein seems like the only good option.

Wasted vote thanks to the voting system in the US.

@pavlor

Well, thats the attitude that will ensure there will be no change ever.

@Overflow

First-past-the-post voting system is of course biased in favour of two biggest parties. Until this changes, you can´t expect victory of third party candidate.

@pavlor

Sure, Im well aware of the bias in the system.

But the whiteflag tone in your post is defeatist.

The outrage with politicans around the world have intresting effects these days. Jeremy Corbyn taking over Labour in UK, even tho the establishment is doing their uttmost to reject him, Gary Johnson polling at 10% and Jill Stein at 4% even tho they are completely ignored by the media, UK voters rejecting EU, Iceland voting in a non establishment politician as prime minister yesterday.... The list is longer but you see a trend around the world.

You could maybe make an argument that letting Trump become president is counter to the progressive change in USA, but I would argue its incumbent on the democrats (only in name) to present a better candidate than the personificiation of the establishment, HIllary.

And why does a norwegian care about the election in USA? Because its politics affect the whole world, espesially with regards to TTP/TTIP.

Last edited by Overflow on 26-Jun-2016 at 10:12 AM.

@Overflow

If we (europeans) are cynical we should be for Trump because Hilary will do the TTIP/TAFTA for sure ;-P

Anyway the fact that both USA and EU negotiate in pure secret the TTIP//TAFTA is a shame for democracy both sides of Atlantic ...


Alain

@thellier

Quote:

thellier wrote: @Overflow If we (europeans) are cynical we should be for Trump because Hilary will do the TTIP/TAFTA for sure ;-P Anyway the fact that both USA and EU negotiate in pure secret the TTIP//TAFTA is a shame for democracy both sides of Atlantic ... Alain

Didn't really know much about this so did some research.
No wonder I didn't know a lot about it, I'm sure it's something those involved wanted zero publicity for.
I shouldn't be surprised but I am.
Seems to me governments are cutting their own throats with this deal.


Cheers

_________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@Overflow

Well, Hillary is perfect candidate for old can like myself.

@pavlor

Quote:

Wasted vote...

Quite right, whether anyone cares to admit it or not.
Apparently it will require an even bigger circus than our current circumstances to weaken the strangle hold that the Republican and Democratic Parties have on our electoral system.

So the fight needs to be carried out by the electorate.
We need to demand higher standards from our politicians, less divisiveness and more postive action.

Otherwise all we will continue to see is an unproductive gridlock that enflames passions.

I tried to point out something similar in another thread that Pavlor and I were participating in, but the thread was locked (and all I was doing was expressing a disenting opinion).

BTW - At least one of the moderators is a real chicken sh*t for that.

The oddest part being that I agree with the majority of what Pavlor has to say.

What we need is REAL change, not lip service to change.

Last edited by iggy on 26-Jun-2016 at 04:18 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 26-Jun-2016 at 02:22 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 26-Jun-2016 at 02:19 PM.

@pavlor

Quote:

I see you don´t like proportional representation voting system. It has its flaws (you mentioned one of them), but minority votes are better represented than in first-post-the-post system.

That's something else that pisses me off (that I'd forgotten about, thanks for reminding). When we had the referendum on AV, it was voted against. Then, come the next general election, everybody was complaining about the people who were being elected , EVEN THOUGH THEY'D VOTED AGAINST AV WHICH WOULD HAVE MADE IT FAIRER.

Then the same idiots have now voted us out of the EU. "Oh, I was just voting leave as a protest, I didn't think it would count." "I voted leave, but actually I wanted to remain.". Even the people leading the leave campaign don't appear to actually want to leave.

I accept there are some sane, well-informed people who voted to leave the EU, but a proportion of them are idiots and most of the others were just taken in by the lies.

_________________
"Miracles we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer" - AJS on Hyperion
Avatar is Tabitha by Eric W Schwartz

@pavlor

Quote:

...Hillary is a perfect candidate..

I don't agree with you, but I will be voting with you.

Trump is an anathema. His ideas would lead to the corrosion of our relationships with our allies and adversaries alike, and would also result in massive inflation.
AND, I like my new health care plan.

Last edited by iggy on 26-Jun-2016 at 03:25 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 26-Jun-2016 at 03:25 PM.

@BigD

Quote:

Although the Council can delegate legislation forming powers to the Commission (which is accountable to the Parliament), the Council itself is above the Parliament. It really is a farce and wouldn't be a system the British people would tolerate being used for our national governance never mind an entire continent!!!

Actually it is exactly the system we use.

The European Council of ministers is more or less equivalent to our Cabinet (which may inlcude unlected memebers of the house of lords as well as minesters drawn from MPs).

It's the comiision whch is different from out system, as our civilservice only fleshes out the details of legislation proposed by government, it can't propose it, unlike the European Commision, which can.

Last edited by broadblues on 26-Jun-2016 at 02:56 PM.

_________________
BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@Chris_Y

Quote:

Chris_Y wrote: @pavlor Quote: I see you don´t like proportional representation voting system. It has its flaws (you mentioned one of them), but minority votes are better represented than in first-post-the-post system. That's something else that pisses me off (that I'd forgotten about, thanks for reminding). When we had the referendum on AV, it was voted against. Then, come the next general election, everybody was complaining about the people who were being elected , EVEN THOUGH THEY'D VOTED AGAINST AV WHICH WOULD HAVE MADE IT FAIRER. Then the same idiots have now voted us out of the EU. "Oh, I was just voting leave as a protest, I didn't think it would count." "I voted leave, but actually I wanted to remain.". Even the people leading the leave campaign don't appear to actually want to leave. I accept there are some sane, well-informed people who voted to leave the EU, but a proportion of them are idiots and most of the others were just taken in by the lies.

I very much doubt "most of the others were taken in by lies."
It was clear early days that both sides had been playing fast and loose with the truth.
Both sides got publicly challenged on statements throughout the campaign.

This left most of the public trying to vote the best they could with the little solid facts available.
Once again the political class has a lot to answer for.


Cheers

_________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@broadblues

Quote:

It's the comiision whch is different from out system, as our civilservice only fleshes out the details of legislation proposed by government, it can't propose it, unlike the European Commision, which can.

It is a bureaucratic mess however you want to try and explain it with hardly enough accountability to the EU citizens to be classed a democratic institution. The only arguments that seemed to come out of remain were;
1) It's safer and more prosperous together.
2) Don't be isolationist.
3) Fear change for change is unpredictable.
4) Think about the economy! They'll be some turmoil for a few years so why bother rocking the boat.
5) People in UK based international companies will lose their jobs and the EU won't trade with us ever again!

There were no positive arguments about how exactly the EU benefits Britain in terms of the running of its democracy, keeping the UK accountable etc. I can only imagine that the remain side didn't make those arguments because;

A) It was just easier to spout off fear.
B) The EU isn't actually very democratic.
C) The remain side couldn't actually believe that intelligent well thought out people could actually disagree with them so why bother debating the finer details of EU membership, governance and legislature and what it means!

A shockingly poor campaign from the remain side and one that has rightfully destroyed both David Cameron's and Jeremy Corbyn's careers!

Saying that, a vote for Brexit in many cases has been a well thought out decision by people who think it is better to be in a free democracy than a bureaucratic nanny state that pretends to know what we need without giving its citizens democratic power to oust presidents, councillors and MEPs when they start acting like corrupt arrogant people that most career politicians become. The Commission started life as the European Coal and Steel Community and look what a horrific European Government in disguise it has morphed into! The more I think about it the more I think it was the basis for George Lucas' Star Wars prequels where the Trade Federation is corrupted into the Galactic Empire. It starts as a well meaning institution serving trade and the greater good and then powerful and self serving people try and create a United States of Europe by stealth!

Last edited by BigD on 26-Jun-2016 at 04:32 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 26-Jun-2016 at 04:29 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

Saying that, a vote for Brexit in many cases has been a well thought out decision by people

Looking at our previous discussion, I know what to think about such statement...



Quote:

Britain in terms of the running of its democracy

You may start by full application of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union and returning to basic principles of criminal trial (eg. nobody shall be forced to testify against himself).

@TiredofLife

Quote:

This left most of the public trying to vote the best they could with the little solid facts available.

Yes, OK, maybe. I'm reading today of lots of racism against the Polish living in the UK following the result, so it's clear that a number of people voting Leave are just racists who did not even consider any of the facts. Access to the European Common Market is likely to result in the free movement of people too, so even their beliefs were based on lies or - at the very least - assumptions.

_________________
"Miracles we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer" - AJS on Hyperion
Avatar is Tabitha by Eric W Schwartz

@pavlor

Quote:

Most members of the European Council (all except its President and President of the EC) are heads of their respective states/governments. They are elected by their own citizens/legislatures...

Patently untrue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commissioner

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.