@thellier

as far as I know there are many rules that have to be approved by parliament or by the governments, the commission is not almighty. We see that at refugees crisis. And to be honest culture and interests are very very different in europe, another example is greek crisis and how germans and french people looked at that. I do not want that a southern alliance lead by france rules germany with no real say by us but at least the permission to pay back debts of others. It would have been better to have a small EU and a small Euro but our politicians always see no borders and want everything immediately.

I think I'm going to vote for IN.

EU has it problems, but I think it better to try and be in the organisation and try and fix the problems than just walk away.

as for any effect on Amiga, well Amigakit selling the AmigaONE machines into eu could cost more, but I doubt much will change weather we stay or leave, the stuff going around makes you think where doomed no matter what we do! lol

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>expecially the young protest that would most benefit from changes

Are you joking ?

Dont you see young peoples that protest in Greece, Spain, France ... Do you really think it is better now for them ?
Those are not "changes" or "reforms" just neo-liberal dumping : kleenex jobs

I am enough old to have known the 70s and the situation was better : all that Europe did here from that time is a mess

>Protected markets mean low quality at high prices
TAFTA is going to leverage to the low all european norms for USA benefit

>then make products that chinese people want to buy.
No sense: as Euro currency is so high against chinese Yuan there is no hope it can (massively) happen
Even if Europe products are better they will be too espensive for standard chinese consumers
China is not especially competitive : just have a real politic to have a very low yuan

@thellier

Germany can live with it very good, france and other countries would need different politics because of different industry structure and culture. That is one of the main problems of both Euro and EU... it ties countries together that not really fit together just because of "visions" of politicians.

Germany always had a high-value currency, it has two sides. The products are more expensive because of it but also needed and imported raw materials are cheaper then what partly compensates the first. Of course you need efficient production and high-value products in such a market, you cannot compete with cheap textiles there (as a example)

Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-May-2016 at 10:24 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-May-2016 at 10:23 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-May-2016 at 10:22 AM.

@amigang

Amigakit is becoming more expensive for EU customers because of taxes (19% in germany f.e.)

Regarding Brexit as I wrote... it is a illusion by some that much will change after Brexit, the biggest difference is that Britain has no influence anymore

UK voting out means Scotland will have a new referendum and it will most likely be the end of UK. Also, EU is kinda what keeps the situation with Northern Ireland down, but with independent Scotland supporting Ireland, Ireland in EU and England all on its own... I suspect even NI inhabitant will want to join the Republic of Ireland, and Belfast will remain a major European port. Wales is the only part of this that is Amiga relevant, as it is in Cardiff that Amiga Kit is located, with Scottish independence and Belfast fighting to remain an important port for European imports, perhaps Wales will feel the need to shackle off centuries of English colonialism too, and where Wales goes, Cornwall will follow. And Isle of Man, and various other islands all over the place.

So, yeah, I totally for Britain voting "out", it most likely means the final dismantling of what used to be the British Empire and Commonwealth. What will old England live from? London is currently the money laundry capitol of Europe and a tax haven, but it is very doubtful it can keep that status outside of EU.

Last edited by kolla on 23-May-2016 at 10:21 AM.

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@OlafS25

Quote:

That is one of the main problems of both Euro and EU... it ties countries together that not really fit together just because of "visions" of politicians.

That is not the "problem", that is the "solution", the "vision" is peaceful co-existance and cooperation, after hundreds and thousands of years with wars. As EU breaks apart, prepare for more wars in Europe again.

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@OlafS25

Quote:

Germany always had a high-value currency

That is not at all true.

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@kolla

peaceful cooperation is always good (who would be against it) but it also has economic consequences, both EU and Euro, expecially the Euro. It was a big mistake to create a currency and then hope that very different countries would somehow fit together finally despite being very different before. I would call it naive or irresponsible. The results are obvious and political it also has drastic consequences with more and more right-wing or populist parties on the rise.

@kolla

not? The DM was low-value?

>That is not the "problem", that is the "solution", the "vision" is peaceful co-existance and cooperation, after hundreds and thousands of years with wars.

This is the "Europe is peace" mantra

But peace in Europe didnt happened this way...
European Union in fact did nothing for peace since World War 2
Peace was already here when early "European Coal and Steel Community" appear in 1951
Then there was american army bases in Germany and other places for "pacifying" the thing
Then Cold War, then Missiles at West and East = peace from weapons = peace else apocalypse
Then Gorbatchew really did the job not european union
Then Bosnian/Serbian massacres finally stopped with NATO bombing (not european union)
Even for recents Georgian,Ukrainian conflicts the UN Security Council is more important than european union

European Union is geo-strategically weak as it got no army

Europe act as an amoeba : when a country is peacefull enough : it eat it to be a part of it else it wait

Alain

Last edited by thellier on 23-May-2016 at 11:39 AM.
Last edited by thellier on 23-May-2016 at 11:35 AM.

@OlafS25

Deutsche Mark was mostly known for being one of the most stable currencies (which is quite attractive for mid- to long-term investors who are looking to lower their risks).

Having a higher or lower value compared to other key currencies such as the US dollar or GBP is actually quite meaningless by itself, by the way.

Either way, you claimed that "Germany always had a high-value currency". Historically, this statement is flat out wrong. Germany existed before 1948 when Deutsche Mark was introduced.

Last edited by ASiegel on 23-May-2016 at 12:14 PM.

@ASiegel

before 1871 there were even lots of different currencies. We talk here about modern history so it is about BRD, not Deutsche Reich before 1945 or 1918

@OlafS25

Quote:

EU needs Britain less than Britain needs EU

I agree, we should stay IN, as with anything there no black and white but I think much better off on the inside with influence.

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We don't want intel on the inside so why would we want the EU lol

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@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @kolla peaceful cooperation is always good (who would be against it)

Plenty of parties would profit from a not so peaceful situation in Europe.

Quote:

but it also has economic consequences, both EU and Euro, expecially the Euro. It was a big mistake to create a currency and then hope that very different countries would somehow fit together finally despite being very different before. I would call it naive or irresponsible. The results are obvious and political it also has drastic consequences with more and more right-wing or populist parties on the rise.

It would not make much difference one way or the other. Both EU and the Euro have been wonderful tools to even out differences in Europe, giving us a lot of freedoms we never had before. But they are also tools that can be abused. With a common currency, poor countries/states have to be subsidized by rich countries/states. This is also how it is in the US.

The Euro crisis was pretty much been orchestrated from certain powerful entities. Would this have been different without the Euro? Only a little, the crisis would just have been orchestrated a little differently. I live in a country without Euro and outside EU, and the same goes on here, just slightly differently.

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@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @kolla not? The DM was low-value?

It was dwindling downwards, especially after the German reunion, and it would have continued dwindling down if it had not been replaced by the Euro. Germany was always very pro-Euro, and not without reason - it was important for Germany (and German based banks, of which there are many) to expand the markets as quickly as possible, before the German currency lost too much value.

Germany without EU and Euro would not have been very prosperous.

Besides - you said "Germany always had high-value currency", and to that I should really tell you to ask your great grand parents - the inflation in Germany during the 1920s was insane.

Last edited by kolla on 23-May-2016 at 03:43 PM.

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@g01df1sh

This thread should have been in Free for All...


IN or OUT EU? Although EU approval is at lowest rate ever in my country (thanks to hubris like "quota system"), the good in EU still immensely outweigh negatives. Stay in and press for change within.

@thellier

Quote:

5) UK is a US puppy...

We have an odd relationship (since we were a British colony), but hey, you all belong to NATO for your own reasons.
So, if we as for help...

Back in 1975 I voted for Britain to remain part of the EEC. What I did not vote for was total political union, especially a union where decisions were not made by any form of democratically elected body but by a cabal of unelected commissioners. I will be reversing my previous vote and voting OUT.

Last edited by Nimrod on 23-May-2016 at 07:04 PM.

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