@A1200

Quote:

A1200 wrote: @Drewlio77 I am an "out". Despite the potential economic loss, I would still vote out. Why? Because they should have asked the UK voters before walking us into a political union. We voted for the single market not another parliament. With the EU we put in a pound, get back 60p and are told how to spend it. England is a net contributor to the EU but the rest of the UK relies on subsidies. Scotland would almost certainly vote to leave the UK if we come out of Europe unless the UK government can divert the money that went into the EU to the projects and initiatives that would lose out following brexit. We don't need the European Union. It's expensive and takes away a country's sovereignty. We complain about the unelected house of lords here in the UK but seem fine handing over major governance to the EU.

Shut up with all this bull**** and be honest say the plain truth.

The Britons who want brexit want to go out because you do not want to respect your quota of hosting africans, ware syrian war refugees, and other muslim expats and because you are freaked out that there could be ISIS terrorists hidden amongst the refugees.

That's the only plain truth...

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@Nimrod

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Nimrod wrote: Back in 1975 I voted for Britain to remain part of the EEC. What I did not vote for was total political union, especially a union where decisions were not made by any form of democratically elected body but by a cabal of unelected commissioners. I will be reversing my previous vote and voting OUT.

Commissioners were elected from European Parliament whose members you send in Brussels/Bruxelles by voting them in regular european elections... So what?

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@thellier

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thellier wrote: @pavlor (more explanations for non european readers...) Yes I agree but in fact the European commission (not elected) develop a "politic program" that no one has (directly) voted for (The better proof is a what currently happen with the pure secret discussions about the TAFTA no one has directly voted for that....)

No one has voted for?

What are you saying?

You voted for your representatives in EU.

If they agree to unwanted communitary rules, just kick them in the ass and denounce treaties.

Stop saying bull****!!!!! Any nations in EU can can change treaties if these reveal to be unfair.

If vaste majority of national representatives at EU Parliament do not denounce unfair laws is mainly because they are all lobbyists.

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@Raffaele

Quote:

Shut up with all this bull**** and be honest say the plain truth. The Britons who want brexit want to go out because you do not want to respect your quota of hosting africans, ware syrian war refugees, and other muslim expats and because you are freaked out that there could be ISIS terrorists hidden amongst the refugees. That's the only plain truth...

Really it's far more complex than that. There are certainly a more than few that are scared of imigiration, the media really does not help with it's scaremongering stories, (asylums seakers in 1.6 million pound house in London, missing out the fact that is was a modest housing association house and only that expensive, because all house are ridiculous in london) but there are many with more nuanced reasons.

The EU debated has existed long before the refugee crisis, it's more that those anti EU people on the right, use the fear of it to their advatange

There are socliatist groups that belive we should leave because EU is hopelessly capitlist for example. I, as soclialist, disagree with that, but it's an opinion expressed by quite a few.


If the outcome wasn't so important I would be facinated by the way the question divides tradtional political groupings is quite unexpected ways.

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@Raffaele I vote for my MEP to do a job, not subcontract that job out to somebody else. If I don't like the way an MEP is doing their job I can publicise their failings and try to get them sacked/voted out. How does that work with some subcontractor who is unelected and unaccountable? It is the sheer volume of smokescreens and mirrors around the systems that causes me and others to distrust them.
There are just too many backroom deals and secrets such as TTIP for me to be willing to trust the current system. It leaves me wondering how many little brown envelopes full of used banknotes are changing hands in the corridors of power.

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@Raffaele

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Commissioners were elected from European Parliament

I don't think that is true. There are anumber of UK polticians that became EU commissioners without ever being members of the EU parliament. More like the parliament most approve their appointment.

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@Nimrod

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I vote for my MEP to do a job, not subcontract that job out to somebody else.

You vote for you MEP to represent you, but other wise it's very similar to how Westminster MPs 'subcontract the job' to the whitehal civil service.

MPs / MEPs scrutinise / debate / decide (or just follow the party line in many cases) etc but the fine details of law and implmentation is always run by the civil service, be it whitehall or EU commision.

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@broadblues

Sir Humphrey Appleby, GCB, KBE, MVO, MA(Oxon) P.P.S. to Prime Minister Jim Hacker does not have the authority to propose legislation, nor can he set objectives or priorities for action, unlike his EU Commission counterparts. In British politics the elected representative gives orders to the unelected civil servant not vice versa.
That was the entire comic angle of the "Yes Minister" and Yes Prime Minister series starring Nigel Hawthorne and Paul Eddington, seeing how Sir Humphrey tried with varying levels of success to steer the politician he was supposedly serving.
Even the House of Lords can only suggest revisions of laws, not impose new ones, and the elected government can reject those suggested revisions.

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@Daedalus

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Also, as Kolla pointed out, there are serious implications to Northern Ireland, which could mean damaging the fragile peace that currently exists there. Leaving the EU will likely damage the economy there too, which will only further strain relationships between the two countries (Republic of Ireland and the UK).

See also: Gibraltar.

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Been watching the results come in. Leave was ahead all the way until about 2.5Million and now remain is slightly ahead.

So far every constituency in Wales has voted in favour of leave Scotland seem to be the polar opposite.

edit.

Right now the results are swinging back and forth but it very close with leave ahead by less that 20,000 votes.

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Coming close to 5m votes each with leave ahead by just under 100K right now.

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Leave at over 5.1m at the moment with remain about to edge into 5m.

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A second Welsh constituency votes to remain but leave is now about 200K ahead.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

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Leave almost 9m and remain just over 8.5m.

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Leave is currently neatly a million votes ahead of remain.

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All constituencies in Scotland have voted to remain, Northern Ireland have a majority remain vote, with the majority of Wales voting to leave and England look likely to do the same.

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Just 50 results left to declare.

edit.

Leave is now almost exactly 1m ahead with 44 more result left.

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Well for better or for worse the UK has voted to leave. If you live outside the UK and were thinking of ordering something from Amigakit, now is probably a good time. Since the Pound has dropped 7% against the Euro.

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Stay lost, leave won

Last edited by marko on 24-Jun-2016 at 05:27 AM.

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@Thread

Too bad for Britain and Europe, fear of the other was stronger than living together. I think Birtain will cry sooner or later for this choice.

Too bad also that Britons have forgotten what was Europe before EU and that wars have also been forgotten.

Britain blamed Eorpen Union for everytging (as many countries) to explain their failures on some subjects. It's more easy to do so.

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Quote:

K-L wrote: @Thread Too bad for Britain and Europe, fear of the other was stronger than living together. I think Birtain will cry sooner or later for this choice. Too bad also that Britons have forgotten what was Europe before EU and that wars have also been forgotten.

+1

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@marko

Sincerely except economics, that are a bunch of sharks that are about to loose money from Brexit, the rest of the world do not care if Great Britain wants to stay an island, and do not partecipate the rest of Europe despite centuries of continuous cultural, economics and political exchange with the continent itself.

And from my point of view, as a citizen of the continent, those who don't want to stay with me and do not want my company and my presence, better they stay off and secluded in their lands, as for example Austria, Denmark and Hungary and not only United Kingdom.

My country, Italy is the door of Europe open on the Mediterranean Sea and frankly I am pissed off that rest of Europe leave Greeks and Italians to face the assalut of hundred thousands refugees without helping us to secure the sea frontiers that are common for all European Union, not only simple a matter of Greek borders and Italian borders, and we spend really milliards of precious money to patrol Mediterranean Sea, and take care of first aid to refugees, that will benefit all the rest of Europe, and for example FRONTEX mission is active only since this 2016 year (and it was almost time in my opinion, that other european counties at least contibuted secure the sea frontiers).

Also the vaste majority of refugees do not want to stay in italy, and they aim at Germany, Great Britain and Nothern Europe like Sweden or Denmark.

I really hope that with Brexit, thousands of refugees will give up starting their journeys of hope, trips that are done in terrible conditions (with the danger of die of shipwrecking, those poor souls), and renounce embarking now that they will face the fact that racist Great Britain is out the EU.

As for me I prefer far better democratic decisions, as long as no any italian government never let us italians to decide with popular vote many UE EU laws that are atrocious.

So good for British citizens who were free to decide to leave with public vote.

We italians had not this democratic opportunity, as our governs always refuse any popular interpellation agitating on our faces Art. 11 of italian Constituition, that says Italy must accept and agree international treaties even if these disagree with our national laws.

Our constitution article 11 was originally intended for Italy to avoid any future ruler in my country to try escape peace and international treaties (a memento to fascist dictature that refused to accomplish decisions from post World War I League of Nations) but it was rcently ABUSED to avoid us italian people's vote to disagree with unfair Bruxelles decisions, such as for example maintain obliged quotas on milk production, or perhaps the order to save any troubled banks with the money of depositors, and not obliging banks to take out an insurance contract to cover any risks of failure, as it stated good italian law previously of Bruxelles decisions.

What? Italians are forced by European Union to keep a quota on their national milk production, and also Bruxelles stated that endangered banks should be saveed using money of depositors, who are poor savers, and not by maintain a risk insurance paid with bank money?

Yes my dear Britain readers! That's it!

What? Surprised?

And you who ingenously believed you were THE ONLY poor people who must face unfair decisions from European Commitee.

I am for euro currency and for European Union, but now I hope (and I will fight for) many things that should really be changed in EU to make it a real democracy, and a real country, with a real constitution, unified politics, a real integrated defence system and a single taxation system, and not this weak internally divided union that is only being a pupil of banks and other economic strong powers (see for example the INFAMOUS TTIP, Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership that Europe is signing with USA, kept secret from peoples and national parliaments, that is all in favour of USA merchandise and junk food, allowing USA to invade Europe with their meat washed with chlorine, butchered from animals really inflated of antibiotics and steroids), and in the end i really hope hat eventually Europe will became an union of peoples, and not an union of banks, insurance companies and big industries.

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"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

Im for EU in principle, but in reality Im against EU.

Norway doesnt HAVE to impliment all the rules EFTA/EU throws in our direction. The political class (Both left and right) in Norway are extremely PRO EU, and disregard the general mood amongst its citizens.
We have rejected EU twice in referendums, and the latest polls shows over 70% of norwegians are against EU membership.

Take the Financial Supervisory Authority of Norway is being put under ESA. This is not allowed by the Grunnlov (our laws), but by using some "clever" mechanisms EU and norwegian authorities has found a way to circumnavigate our Laws.

My point is; lawmakers both in USA and Europa have a INCREASING disconnect to its citizens, and for the most part I see a increasing tendency its all based on austerity and bailouts of reckless bankers/corporations.
I would have LOVED for EU/politicans to have corrected their behaviour without a Brexit, but I have no faith in them to do this. Espesially considering the TTP/TTIP the political class is pushing for, which is basically one step closer to Corporatism.

So I think Brexit was needed as a realitycheck.

As for security and EU being the mechanism for preventing wars; I think the UN and USA has been the deterrent for warmongering europeans. After the devistation of Sovjet and Europa in general, USA picked up the mantle as the worlds superpower. So EU hasnt been the war prevention mechanism everyone praises it to be.
Take the industrial farming in EU. Mass production at unstustainable low prices. Result; we flood local african market, which effectivly devistates their local economy. What happens then? Starvation, conflicts and immigration from africa (and other parts of the world).
So you cant look at EU zone only to see what effects it got.

Last edited by Overflow on 24-Jun-2016 at 07:22 AM.

@OlafS25

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OlafS25 wrote: @A1200 The people that are for Brexit offen think it will give them the big freedom and they get rid of any payments. To a certain degree I can understand that people want that but it is just a illusion. Ask norway and switzerland. Norway has only very limited access to the market but have to take over 70% of new rules without any say and have to give money. Switzerland more or less has all duties of full members without any say because they need full access (50% of exports go to germany alone). Norway has only limited number of products, most exports are oil, gas and fish so Britain would be more like switzerland. And do not think that Britain will get a better treaty than switzerland, I think the opposite just for punishing Britain for Brexit so noone else will try. EU needs Britain less than Britain needs EU then make products that chinese people want to buy. Protected markets mean low quality at high prices, companies have no real competition so are not struggling to become better and you end up with a uncompetitive industry. Sounds a little like france, doesn´t it? EU was not primarly created to protect the old-fashioned structure and laws in france. It is a little funny... Hollande is seriously to do some reforms and expecially the young protest that would most benefit from changes, it seems they prefer to stay unemployed it seems. In Germany economically not all is good but at least france could look there and do what fits. To say no reforms is wrong.

Finally I get to read some intelligent answers!

@thellier
Quote:

started with European Coal and Steel Community ==> mines & steel factory closed then Common Agricultural Policy => no more farmers all ruined then EU Single Market that is no more a protected market for European producers only but now an open door for all the low-cost/quality things from China etc...

All of this is not because of EU, it's because the world moved forward towards globalisation, and because China has rose up to be a strong producer. Communication with Internet makes things go faster, easier to buy things from anywhere in a way that wasn't possible 20-30 years ago.

Brexit won't swing the UK back to the happy 50's or 60's. It will still be 2016. Internet will still exist and China will still produce a shitload of consumer products that anyone can buy from anywhere over the Internet.

Agriculture will still struggle because people want cheap food, and farmers want to get 2016 salaries.

Quote:

Europe is NOT democratic

And thank heavens for that! People (the general public) are to stupid to be allowed to vote in matters like this. They have no real insight to make a good balanced decision. It has to be decided by experts.

Wake up Brexit fans. Nothing good will come from this Alone is not strong in the modern globalized world. Globalization will not cease, it will just get more difficult for people and companies wanting to trade and shop with the UK. Everything will not be "like it was before". That it was better before is just an illusion cause by the brain which tends to favor good memories over bad. It wasn't better before and it won't be better now, just different and more cumbersome.

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@Raffaele

Quote:

Italians are forced by European Union to keep a quota on their national milk production

Actually, the quotas have been abandoned. As a result, massive milk overproduction occured, milk prices have dropped dramatically and thousands of diary farmers in Germany alone had to give up their business or are about to.

More insight: When the milk market soured (DW)

So, yeah, not a prime example for "evil EU quotas that hold back Italian agriculture"...

@agami

Quote:

It is a natural tendency for people to want to run back to something they know when the new thing isn't quite working out. The problem is, you can never go back: Because you can't wind the whole world back. Any previously perceived "good" state had come about through a complex network of system events and there is no way to replicate that. So rather than 'undo' they are actually creating a new state which is just as different from the current as the current one is from the previous.

Exactly!!
The Brexit people seem to think it will go back to be like it was before the Internet and the globalization it enabled. It won't.

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@Deniil715

"Cant go back". Thats the "voting for the lesser of two evils" mentality US voters is facing with Hillary and Trump.

If you dont make a break away from something that doesnt show any signs of improving, you will get closer to the edge of the cliff.

Its called the Stockholm syndrome

@Deniil715

Its called democracy something we English would not give up without a fight,its got very little to do with Europeans as a people to whom we look upon very fondly it just that democracy well if we cant live in a country where you can not remove your elected leaders what does that make it.