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ne_one 
Re: multi core
Posted on 9-Jun-2016 22:57:03
#41 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
Are you sure this is really what current user base wants? That "feeling" thing is most important for them.


The current user base already has more than enough options to maintain that "feeling."

Quote:
Can you provide the same with your solution? If not, then forget about it.


If the "old and conservative" crowd wants things to remain the same it's not a problem - maintain the status quo.

The problem is those who want things to preserve the warm fuzzies of the 80s don't appreciate that it prevents things from moving forward.

Why not have it both ways?



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Thorham 
Re: multi core
Posted on 9-Jun-2016 23:13:57
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

Quote:
kamelit0 wrote:

In a sense he's right

No, he's absolutely wrong in every way. The reason is that his statement requires all programmers to make all software completely bug free (LOLOL) and have everyone play nice (LOLOL). Clearly that's a pile of old rubbish.

Then there's also software development. A nice, robust OS that you can't easily get on it's face is VERY nice for development. This guy must have never programmed under modern operating systems before. Even Windows XP does this right, go figure.

No really, his answer is absolute nonsense.

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olegil 
Re: multi core
Posted on 10-Jun-2016 0:25:08
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Thorham

Windows XP not easily gotten on its face? New to this "computing" stuff, are you?

Seriously, all systems have their downsides. Too much abstraction from the hardware and you'll curse it for sluggishness (or simply stupidity). Too little and it'll crash too easily. I have yet to see any system with a perfect balance of abstraction. Windows seems to become more and more abstract in the user interface but not necessarily in the stability department.

I've managed to crash both X and some guys QNX desktop by writing out AfghanistanAfghanistanAfghanistan in an infinite loop while working on a customer database for a fairly well known browser company. I didn't even have to touch his computer to do it, I just gave him the wrong URL (ironically his office was number 404 and he wanted a http 404 error on his door and I forgot I had saved that bug as "dill.php" on my server for the browser guys to look into. Also forgot that apache would expand to .php if it found a match).

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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OlafS25 
Re: multi core
Posted on 10-Jun-2016 8:55:21
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@ne_one

the problem is that someone has to do the work, either for free or for pay

for free... you have to find people who do work just for fun not asking for money (and it is slow of course)
or someone who pays for it lots of money with high risk loosing most of it

today the amiga market is much too small to really earn money and not everyone will be willing to pay for the new changed modernized OS (we will certainly see that when MorphOS will have done the ISA change). New users from outside with lack of software will be a hard task. There are already plenty of options out there with much better support, nobody out there is waiting for "Amiga" anymore. As I wrote, the change should have done 2003/2004 with something really "NG" and with at least some sort of community left, today the train has departured. I personal doubt that many today are willing to pay for such a new OS. It would be much more expensive than AOS FE is today, it would have to be bought by customers and not part of the hardware like it is the case for windows on standard PC so people will moan. Look about the discussions about drivers from a-eon or discussions about morphos licenses. Time is over to change that. Instead of trying to compete with modern platforms new software running on all platforms, new development environments and so on would bring more benefit and be less risky.

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Hypex 
Re: multi core
Posted on 10-Jun-2016 9:32:52
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@olegil

Still, it doesn't seem like a good idea to put the system at risk, even within high level interrupt code, at least to me. A crash in an interrupt will pretty much freeze the system or close too.

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Hypex 
Re: multi core
Posted on 10-Jun-2016 9:45:01
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Tomppeli

Quote:
The industry uses it maybe still.


What the antique industry? LOL. Maybe they should consider upgrading to an Amiga A500. Haha!

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Hypex 
Re: multi core
Posted on 10-Jun-2016 9:49:05
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@blakespot

Does that mean you are a beta tester? As the only version of OS4.2 there is is on a beta tester or developers harddrive. No wonder it's unstable!

Last edited by Hypex on 10-Jun-2016 at 09:50 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: multi core
Posted on 10-Jun-2016 9:50:50
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Hypex

a few years ago I saw someone still using a DOS application for administration

but I cannot imagine that this is the case today

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iggy 
Re: multi core
Posted on 10-Jun-2016 13:04:23
#49 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@Thorham

Quote:
his answer is absolute nonsense


+1

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wawa 
Re: multi core
Posted on 10-Jun-2016 13:28:04
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@blakespot

Quote:
I wish I could get farther into it, but it's so unstable, and I know this is not the OS' fault directly, but apps not playing nice. With protected memory, an app will only kill itself.


well, last time i remember my pretty heavily upgraded 4000 amiga was pretty stable while using various productivity software, like hd-rec, art effect or whatever, otherwise it wouldnt be possible to actually achieve anything done. maybe its partly due to me running muforce in the background so it was pretty straight forward to identify misbehaving apps, trashing memory or even particular functions leading to a crash in order to avoid them. similarly it behaves with aros68k, when there are problems, then its a quefstion of time and a bit of effort to isolate reproducible test case.

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kamelito 
Re: multi core
Posted on 10-Jun-2016 13:35:04
#51 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 813
From: Unknown

@Thorham

XP didn't existed back then when he was working for Amiga technologies around 1995.
I wrote his name badly sorry for that.

http://www.amigareport.com/ar310/feature8.html

Kamelito

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olegil 
Re: multi core
Posted on 10-Jun-2016 19:46:20
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Hypex

So how do you protect against errors in "high level interrupt code" (your wording) then? Ever see a Windows machine blue-screen? Hint: The BSoD's are still blue in Windows 10. Even if they're now giving QR codes which links your phone to a solution. Pretty nifty idea, really. But this point is, these things happen in any OS, so maybe learning to deal with them isn't the absolute worst idea ever.

At the university we were doing lab work in RTX, real-time extensions to NT. My god in heaven that was the absolute worst developer environment ever. Brought a friend from class home cause he had found an A500 in a dumpster, we brought it back to life by reseating chips and set it up with an assembler. I showed him what happens when you run an infinite busy loop on Amiga OS and he nearly fell off his chair when I casually took the mouse and pulled down the screen.

In RTX the same mistake meant the ATX power button stopped working on the machine, as that is apparently software handled in modern operating systems. You can't make this shit up.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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realize 
Re: multi core
Posted on 11-Jun-2016 17:34:42
#53 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2003
Posts: 1797
From: nyc

@g01df1sh


I didnt even make it past your post on this thread lets put it this way, and ive been saying it for years:

ITS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN

It will break all legacy stuff. The top amiga coders in the world say this, you guys (and all the fanboys) should listen.

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Thorham 
Re: multi core
Posted on 11-Jun-2016 18:11:16
#54 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

Quote:
kamelit0 wrote:

XP didn't existed back then when he was working for Amiga technologies around 1995.
I wrote his name badly sorry for that.

Be that as it may, he was still wrong. No matter how you look at it, people will produce software with bugs. Protecting the system from this is not a bad idea. Back then you also had viruses. Protecting the system from that is also a good idea.

The only possibly reasonable argument would be that memory protection on 68k will slow down the system. You already notice this when using debugging tools like Enforcer.

Ultimately it doesn't matter, because you can't add full protection to Amiga OS anyway. Not to mention that AOS is a little on the brittle side because it doesn't have enough sanity checks.

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kamelito 
Re: multi core
Posted on 11-Jun-2016 21:39:48
#55 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 813
From: Unknown

@Thorham

Sanity check would have slow down the OS I guess, but it would be nice to have sanity checks when developing and once you got no warnings for your application you could ship your product.
Kamelito

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iggy 
Re: multi core
Posted on 11-Jun-2016 21:52:45
#56 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@realize

Quote:
IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN


You're right. The way they think they can approach this is not feasible.
I have already mentioned the only way I can see it working, and its not a direction they are exploring.

Just using a new kernel will simply break compatibility.
But there are SO many people posting here that have faith in this impossibility that pointing out the obvious is pointless.
They still think it will be done.

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TRIPOS 
Re: multi core
Posted on 11-Jun-2016 22:29:01
#57 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1204
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote:
Full memory protection was promised for OS4.0 release on this very forum by mr Hermans.


Breaks Amiga compatibility by definition. No news.

Quote:
Multicore was a subject of a bet made by Ben Hermans that it would be available several years ago.


Breaks Amiga compatibility by definition. No news.

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Hypex 
Re: multi core
Posted on 12-Jun-2016 2:05:45
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@olegil

Quote:
So how do you protect against errors in "high level interrupt code" (your wording) then?


In this case by not allowing unverified 68K code to be emulated inside the interrupt code. Which is what I am against.

Let me explain what I mean by high level. So at the low level we have the ASM routine at the real entry point that saves CPU state at point of entry. Mid level code that sets up the stack frame and prepares for the next stage. Leading to the high level code that gets called like any high level language function and would be controlled by Exec.

Sure, by that stage, executing code is in the safest environment for an interrupt. But I still think only trusted and system code should be executed. The CPU can also be in super state depending on the nature of the interrupt.

Quote:
Ever see a Windows machine blue-screen? Hint: The BSoD's are still blue in Windows 10. Even if they're now giving QR codes which links your phone to a solution. Pretty nifty idea, really. But this point is, these things happen in any OS, so maybe learning to deal with them isn't the absolute worst idea ever.


Yes I've seen the cryptic blue death hint. And the QR idea is a good one. Does it only work on Windows mobile? Yes these things happen but the difference here is that for Windows it would be in a normal operating environment. For AmigaOS4 you'd be lucky to get a yellow alert and more likely the hardware (or software) would freeze giving no clue what has gone wrong and in the context I am arguing against it wouldn't be a normal operating environment if a system interrupt crashed from the result of a CPU emulator executing buggy 68K code that took the whole thing down.

Quote:
I showed him what happens when you run an infinite busy loop on Amiga OS and he nearly fell off his chair when I casually took the mouse and pulled down the screen.


Now that's funny. And yes the power of the interrupt demonstrated. Since multitasking is switched during an interrupt and the mouse is read from an interrupt then it's position changed easily would be why a simple A500 in a busy loop could still work.

Quote:
In RTX the same mistake meant the ATX power button stopped working on the machine, as that is apparently software handled in modern operating systems. You can't make this shit up.


You can't. And I could see the above happening easily. So not even holding the button down five or ten seconds?

This is the problem the new AmigaOS4 machines have the use USB for input devices. Since the code the read mouse and KB runs in user mode and not an interrupt anymore any crash or yellow alert will freeze input. That busy loop could take down a modern OS4 machine. But not to the point of RTX I'd hope.

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ne_one 
Re: multi core
Posted on 12-Jun-2016 4:48:25
#59 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
Instead of trying to compete with modern platforms new software running on all platforms, new development environments and so on would bring more benefit and be less risky.


I've never supported the idea of attempting to compete with other platforms.

However, I do believe that there is a viable way to keep the Amiga relevant and make it far easier to ensure that it remains a credible alternative.

It doesn't appear that Hyperion has the resources or the will to do much of anything.

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ne_one 
Re: multi core
Posted on 12-Jun-2016 5:01:48
#60 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@iggy

Quote:
Just using a new kernel will simply break compatibility.


So? Everything that moves the platform forward will break compatibility.

If you have hardware and emulation options to ensure legacy compatibility what difference would it make?

A lot of people make compatibility a priority yet we've never seen a single compelling example of an application that would need to be supported.

If a piece of software is worth having it can be updated or reimplemented.

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