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Aslak3 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 5-Sep-2016 23:48:48
#21 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 259
From: Southampton, UK

@Beans

Quote:
OS4 is only a PPC port of AmigaOS. It seems to be reasonably faithful to its source.


FWIW it is mostly a rewrite. About half of OS3.1 was written in 68K assembly. Calling it a port is stretching it; it's closer to call it a reimplementation.

Also, you might be confusing "proprietary" with "commodity". If that's the case then I'd agree. Sadly.

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kolla 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 6-Sep-2016 5:38:10
#22 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 652
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ne_one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omMOuyTLmyg

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kolla 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 6-Sep-2016 5:44:18
#23 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 652
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Aslak3

Any port is a reimplementation, that is what porting is - rewriting for a different platform.

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ne_one 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 6-Sep-2016 5:48:07
#24 ]
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Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 706
From: Unknown

@kolla

Interesting...

More damning than an admission but funny nonetheless.

Either way, in the annals of Amiga idiots I don't think Commodore holds a candle to Amino... who remain guardians of the galaxy.

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Beans 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 6-Sep-2016 9:36:35
#25 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 252
From: Bear Delaware USA

@Aslak3

Frankly, I am not bothered by it.
3rd party gpus have been a great advance.
I have been using plug in video cards since my last (original) 68K builds and they are so much more powerful.
I can't really picture Amiga having kept up with ATI/AMD and Nvidia.

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Nibunnoichi 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 6-Sep-2016 11:14:30
#26 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Nov-2004
Posts: 941
From: Roma + Lecco, Italia

@Chuckt

Quote:

Chuckt wrote:
I have Vice running on my Pocket Chip.
Pocket Chip is a Linux device has HDMI, an LCD, a Lithium battery, Bluetooth and it can use a thumb drive.

Didn't know of its existence, i had a look and it looks cool! Now i want one!
Anyhow in the shop it's listed as available on october, how does it come you have one? Or is it built in batches and you had it from a previous batch?

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Chuckt 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 6-Sep-2016 13:05:58
#27 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2008
Posts: 445
From: Unknown

@Nibunnoichi

Quote:

Nibunnoichi wrote:
@Chuckt

Quote:

Chuckt wrote:
I have Vice running on my Pocket Chip.
Pocket Chip is a Linux device has HDMI, an LCD, a Lithium battery, Bluetooth and it can use a thumb drive.

Didn't know of its existence, i had a look and it looks cool! Now i want one!
Anyhow in the shop it's listed as available on october, how does it come you have one? Or is it built in batches and you had it from a previous batch?



I bought it in the original Kickstarter.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598272670/chip-the-worlds-first-9-computer

The operating system is Linux. It is also a $9 computer but the keyboard, LCD, battery, etc., makes it cost $69.

What you are going to need is a Bluetooth keyboard with something to move the pointer because the built in keyboard works but would take you forever to type something.

Join the community beforehand and learn how they are doing business because for $9 or $69 dollars, you get what you pay for. I actually had to have help connect it to Wifi.

https://www.getchip.com/

So basically you have to order one if you want one and wait.

I played with it but I actually don't know what to do with it. It is a hacker toy meaning that unless you are into microcontrollers, building computers and inventing software from the ground up, you won't be able to do a lot without their community which is not as good as the Raspberry Pi community and the support behind them.

It uses a thumb drive but the community is trying to add an SD card and there is already a tutorial on how to add a speaker. They are actually waiting for the people on github to write the software for the SD card. So you might want to watch all the youtube videos on it and read everything on github and the forums at getchip before you commit because it is still a new product and although it works, it still needs more polishing and refining. It still needs a lot more R&D (research development).

I want them to develop Chip II with two SD card holders but we don't see eye to eye because it is a $9 computer and I think they want to keep it cheap.

I watched a YouTube video showing how to reduce the size of the Commodore 64 on the Chip LCD but I have yet to plug mine into our HDTV television.



Last edited by Chuckt on 06-Sep-2016 at 01:09 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 6-Sep-2016 14:19:06
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8458
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Aslak3

Quote:
FWIW it is mostly a rewrite. About half of OS3.1 was written in 68K assembly. Calling it a port is stretching it; it's closer to call it a reimplementation.


Whatever we call it, it had to be done. Otherwise the OS would have to be run in emulation. Well half the OS.

Though in a recent conversation I was told the proper way to run optimised ASM or any 68K code is through an emulator and not attempt to port it to C or any high level language for that matter.

Of course such an idea is not practical in terms of portability. Nor to run it native on a different host CPU. Or manage workable code.

But Apple did do it for starters when they ported MacOS to PPC before dumping in favour of OSX.

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Hypex 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 6-Sep-2016 14:45:40
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8458
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Beans

Quote:
I can't really picture Amiga having kept up with ATI/AMD and Nvidia.


I think there is too much concentrating on keeping up with the PC graphic scene. The Amiga seemed to lose it when everyone wanted the chipset to be another VGA adaptor or try and make it it to act like one. But there was more to it than that.

We can easily forget how the Amiga was designed to fit in with TV and video. Sure PC hardware got good at this but the way the Amiga worked was still the best at the time I remember. And easy to genlock with. And I even saw Amiga in use in video when I thought it was past the use by date.

Sure, the Amiga chipset could not have kept static, to survive. Obviously it needed to be expanded with chunky and true colour modes. And Productivity VGA should have been a real VGA mode on AGA. Apart from that true colour modes with quad playfields would have really set it apart. But i like the CLUT modes for the fast way in which colour changes can be made to screen. Unfortunately it never made it beyond that apart from expensive Amiga video cards with foreign chipsets on them that didn't really fit nor were fully integrated and under chipset control.

Last edited by Hypex on 06-Sep-2016 at 02:49 PM.

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ChrisH 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 6-Sep-2016 21:33:05
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6672
From: Unknown

@Aslak3 Quote:

@Beans
Quote:
OS4 is only a PPC port of AmigaOS. It seems to be reasonably faithful to its source.

FWIW it is mostly a rewrite. About half of OS3.1 was written in 68K assembly. Calling it a port is stretching it; it's closer to call it a reimplementation.

You seem to think that what you say contradicts Beans. While this could get into a long-winded discussion (that I have no interest in pursuing), I will say :

How you get from A to B can be as (or more) important than how B diverges from A.

If B is a from-scratch reimplementation, which merely aims to be compatible A (at some level), then B's internals are likely to be quite different from A's, even if you had some prior knowledge of A. You might say B is like A, but it would be much harder to claim that B *is* A. ReactOS (a reimplemention of Win32) roughly falls into this category (although they have been gradually reverse engineering how Windows works to improve compatibility).

On the other hand, if you start with A, and through gradual changes improve & modify it until you reach B, while having a functioning system at every step of the way, then B's internals are likely to be quite similar to A's. And you would find it much easier to claim that B *is* A. AmigaOS4 roughly falls into this category.

(NOTE: Some people won't care HOW they reach B, as they will only care that they have B. However, that's not what I'm discussing.)

Here is one example of how the C version of an AmigaOS4 component was created from the 68k Assembler original:
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=1220

Last edited by ChrisH on 06-Sep-2016 at 09:46 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 06-Sep-2016 at 09:36 PM.

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Aslak3 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 7-Sep-2016 20:52:43
#31 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 259
From: Southampton, UK

@kolla

Quote:

Any port is a reimplementation, that is what porting is - rewriting for a different platform.


Take Linux kernel: ported to almost every CPU ever produced (certainly all with an MMU). Pretty much all of that effort will have been required only on those areas which differ between CPUs: memory management, interrupt management, etc. The common parts, which are not specific to a particular CPU, can be taken verbatim since they are written in a high level language. This is the process of porting.

This is not how AmigaOS 4 was (re)implemented on PPC. For performance reasons - and possibly because of a lack of decent optimising C compliers at the time - large chunks, including the exec, of the OS were written in 68K assembly. In the Linux kernel case, assembly is reserved for places of the kernel which must be written in assembly, for no other reason then it is not possible to express the code in a higher level language.

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Beans 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 7-Sep-2016 21:30:31
#32 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 252
From: Bear Delaware USA

@Hypex

Quote:
I think there is too much concentrating on keeping up with the PC graphic scene.


Its not really the "PC graphics scene" exactly, its gpus in general no matter what they are connected to.

And Amiga graphics would have had to advance further than you are suggesting just to stay competitive.

Shaders, texture, compression, 2D and 3D drawing functions, all would have enhanced latter machines.

Then there is the question of what bus would have been used in latter machines. Zorro is basically an extension of the 68000 bus.
On the machines my company built we used a modified ISA bus, and if Dave Haynie is to be believed, latter Amigas would probably used a PCI bus.

So plug in video cards would probably have become standard.

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Nibunnoichi 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 8-Sep-2016 7:11:13
#33 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Nov-2004
Posts: 941
From: Roma + Lecco, Italia

@Chuckt

Quote:

Chuckt wrote:
@Nibunnoichi
I bought it in the original Kickstarter.

Ah thank you, i'll keep an eye on it...

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See them on http://retro.furinkan.org/

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Hypex 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 11-Sep-2016 14:58:20
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8458
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Beans

Quote:
Its not really the "PC graphics scene" exactly, its gpus in general no matter what they are connected to.


Well perhaps not exactly but back in the 90's the Amiga was pretty much being usurped by PC graphics cards and the Mac which used the same technology.

Quote:
And Amiga graphics would have had to advance further than you are suggesting just to stay competitive.


At the time AGA came out it would have been a good start.

Quote:
Shaders, texture, compression, 2D and 3D drawing functions, all would have enhanced latter machines.


Well yes of course. I'd already addressed this in other threads and what else I thought needed done but didn't see a need to repeat myself. But it was implied.

Quote:
Then there is the question of what bus would have been used in latter machines. Zorro is basically an extension of the 68000 bus.


Well either this or an Amiga plug 'n play version of PCI for example.

Quote:
So plug in video cards would probably have become standard.


For the Amiga they practically were. But they didn't contain the Amiga chipset. Mainly they were for professional use with a 24-bit frame buffer.

But I did read of plans to modularise the chipset onto cards. Or rumours.

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Beans 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 11-Sep-2016 15:06:22
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 252
From: Bear Delaware USA

@Hypex

Quote:
...I did read of plans to modularise the chipset onto cards. Or rumours.


Wouldn't that have been interesting.
A faster internal bus structure would have been inevitable as well as processors exceeded 66 MHz.
Something like AMD's hypertransport.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 11-Sep-2016 22:32:17
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10606
From: Norway

@Beans

Emulating AGA, using CUDA / OpenCL, or pixel sharers or something, way not, at least presenting the graphics should be possible whit this advanced features of modern graphics cards., the issue I have is that gfx memory is not as easy accessible as chip memory, I think. Love it if some came up way to do that on EUAE or WinUAE. Come to think of maybe problem is that CHIP memory is also used as program memory.

What if EUAE was ported to the GPU

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Sep-2016 at 10:36 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Sep-2016 at 10:34 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Sep-2016 at 10:33 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 12-Sep-2016 17:40:30
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8458
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Beans

Quote:
A faster internal bus structure would have been inevitable as well as processors exceeded 66 MHz.


Yes that would have been good. As long as it was still plug and play. Onboard driver.

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persia 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 8-Jan-2017 8:34:59
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2009
Posts: 1053
From: Unknown

Looks like the phone(y) people are trying to register the already registered Commodore logo again. They must be thinking they'll catch someone asleep.



https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/015789142

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eliyahu 
Re: Commodore name come back
Posted on 8-Jan-2017 14:42:36
#39 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1711
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@persia

i love how they seem to think that all will be fine since the first 'c' is larger than the rest of the logo text. oh well. amiga and commodore seem to be like the wild west -- just stake a claim and see if it holds.

-- eliyahu

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