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      /  Help me rejoin the flock...
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Poll : What system should I set up?
AROS - running natively?
AROS - hosted on Ubuntu?
FS-UAE on Ubuntu, with Amiga Forever, running OS 3.x
FS-UAE on Ubuntu, with Amiga Forever, running OS 4.1 (purchased separately)
Amiga Forever KX Light image of OS 3.x, booting from a USB stick or installed to the ThinkPad harddrive
Windows 10 (purchased separately) to run full Amiga Forever utilities and set up some other UAE hosted on Windows 10
Other
 
PosterThread
Rob 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 27-Sep-2016 19:17:52
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@wawa

Quote:
the question is wheter someone who has no experience with os4 should immediately be advised to get a hardware that is not yet released, os4 support not finished, its functionality with os4 questionable and its future availability and price uncertain.


I was just making Dave aware that lower cost (in Amiga terms) OS4 hardware was on the way and did actually caution that performance could be an issue. The X5000 drivers are re-used in the Tabor port so the only additional hardware that needs supporting is the is the onboard audio.
Anyway people will be able to make up their minds when the hardware is actually available, as it stands now, it make no sense to advise for, or against buying it.

@Dave73

Quote:
Can someone point me to information about what the drawbacks are of running OS4 on UAE?

Folks clearly feel it's a less-than-optimal experience. I see how that is likely. But I can't find a description of what that actually means to a user.



I think the main problems are that you're currently limited to 128MB RAM and 4MB for RTG which can be a problem if you prefer higher resolutions. There is also no support for hardware compositing or 3D*. All the 2D games made by Amiboing use composting so you can't play things like MIST on there. FPU emulation is pretty slow but integer execution is supposed to be fast.
Even with these limitations there should still be a lot of software that will run and for €30 it's a good way of getting familiar with OS4.

*Wazp 3D allows you to run some Warp3D software and Voodoo 3 emulation appears to be a future goal.

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wawa 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 27-Sep-2016 19:27:30
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Dave73

Quote:
Can someone point me to information about what the drawbacks are of running OS4 on UAE?


i dont run os4 anymore, but from what i gather:

* 128mb ram limit (os4 limit for amiga hardwre, resulting from accepting only cpu slot ram). this leaves you with about 50mb working ram after boot which is not enough for majority of (ppc compiled) applications. as example odyssey web browser.
* no uae video cards are accepted (may have changed) so only real hardware emulated cards are available (like p4) leading to further limits (4mb vram?)
* no radeonhd, therefore noworking compositing or 3d support
* earlier it was necessary to download and install ppc card and the like firmware separately. i think it has improved.
* devices not as optimized as for genuine amiga emulation or absent altogether, concerns i/o, among others net bsd drivers.
- things like that, but you should basically be able to run os itself and play with it and any simpler tools there are.

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A1200 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 27-Sep-2016 20:00:54
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 3087
From: Westhall, UK

If it was made after 1994 its not a real Amiga. Get an A1200 - often PPC and Mediator w/PC GFX card or Bvision turns up on Amibay or the Amibay clone, eBay.

_________________
Amiga A1200, 3.1 ROMs, Blizzard 1230 MKIV 64MB & FPU, 4GB DoM SSD, Workbench 3.1

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Severin 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 28-Sep-2016 14:25:24
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Aug-2003
Posts: 2740
From: Gloucestershire UK

@A1200

So you recommend to buy at least 22 year old hardware with unknown history from possibly unreliable sources ?

Btw. It's not a real amiga if made after 1994 or has had non commodore hardware connected like graphics cards, sound cards, accelerators and SSD harddrives, then ut's just a mongrel/

Last edited by Severin on 28-Sep-2016 at 02:26 PM.

_________________
OS4 Rocks
X1000 beta tester, Sam440 Flex (733)

Visit the Official OS4 Support Site for more help.

It may be that your sole purpose is to serve as a warning to others.

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wawa 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 28-Sep-2016 15:37:32
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Severin

Quote:
22 year old hardware with unknown history


i think at least amiga history is known to us all ;)

Quote:
from possibly unreliable sources


at least there is a shadow of chance the source is actually reliable.

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MickJT 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 28-Sep-2016 18:21:20
#26 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jan-2005
Posts: 525
From: Adelaide, South Australia

@wawa

WinUAE can use uaegfx for a few months now, so resolution and VRAM issues aren't a problem. I don't think you can run any Warp3D stuff though, I haven't tried.

Setting up uaegfx on OS4: http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41322&forum=14#787572

The 128MB RAM limit is the biggest issue.

Quote:
devices not as optimized as for genuine amiga emulation or absent altogether, concerns i/o, among others net bsd drivers.


Since WinUAE 3.3.0, the UAE boot ROM can work with PPC emulation. So uaescsi, uaenet, auto-mounting removable drives, clipboard sharing etc. is also available in OS4, and the RTL8029 network card can also be emulated which I think it's the easiest option to set up networking, since the new connection wizard finds it and sets it up without any hassle (just choose SLIRP in the WinUAE settings).

Last edited by MickJT on 28-Sep-2016 at 06:24 PM.
Last edited by MickJT on 28-Sep-2016 at 06:23 PM.

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ntromans 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 29-Sep-2016 18:56:27
#27 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jul-2004
Posts: 110
From: West Midlands, UK

@Dave73,
Short of running an emulator (with the associated hassle of having to boot another OS first), trying AROS native is going to be the cheapest way to get an Amiga-inspired experience. Best bet is to download a copy of Icaros and try it in live mode. Your ThinkPad might be supported (you can check supported hardware specs here), or, if not, compatable hardware can be picked up cheaply - my desktop cost £30 (age replacement at work), laptop £50 (eBay) and netbook £200 (new).

As to your requirements list:

- a text editor and/or word processor, to write plain text; NoWinEd native or classic software via Janus (I use good old PageStream).
- a web browser that will let me access and store text files on Dropbox or Google Drive; OWB handles the vast majority of web-sites including YouTube and, as with the other Amigoid machines, there's a handler to mount Google Drive (or just access via OWB, this of course giving the option to edit MS Office documents in the borwser).
- access to a USB stick to save and share text files; brilliant USB support via Poseidon, no issue with FAT or even NTFS formatted* sticks/external drives, just plug in and, as you'd expect, the icon pops up on Wanderer.
- an occasional game (nothing demanding); lots of native games shipped with Icaros and if your hardware supports 3D you can run games like Cube2, or of course you can run the classics via Janus.

Cheers,
Nigel.

* This option does require you to generate a mountlist to put into devs:dosdrivers first, though (details of how to are in a thread over on aros-exec).

Edit: Fixed silly typo...

Last edited by ntromans on 01-Oct-2016 at 06:01 PM.

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CodeSmith 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 30-Sep-2016 3:12:51
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@wawa

Quote:

* 128mb ram limit (os4 limit for amiga hardwre, resulting from accepting only cpu slot ram). this leaves you with about 50mb working ram after boot which is not enough for majority of (ppc compiled) applications. as example odyssey web browser.


Yikes! I knew about the 128MB limit, but I figured it would leave over 120MB free. AmigaOS taking up ~78MB of RAM. Wow. How we used to laugh at the bloat of other operating systems...

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thellier 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 30-Sep-2016 8:02:56
#29 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 263
From: Paris

@MickJT
>I don't think you can run any Warp3D stuff though, I haven't tried.

In fact you CAN but only with Wazp3D software mode*
Same apply with patchCompositeTags that do Compositing as software mode

Also due to 128 MB ram limit most games dont start or crash like MACE
http://thellier.free.fr/winuaeppc.jpg

but some simples games have been reported to works and also some 3d demo but slow

Alain Thellier - Wazp3D

*WinUAE-ppc dont have the ppc uaenative.library that will allow to call hard x86 OpenGL.dll

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wawa 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 30-Sep-2016 10:37:00
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@CodeSmith

Quote:
Yikes! I knew about the 128MB limit, but I figured it would leave over 120MB free. AmigaOS taking up ~78MB of RAM. Wow. How we used to laugh at the bloat of other operating systems...


this isnt actually something new or unknown about os4. its always been like this, and there are countless threads about how to reduce the memory footprint, that alas lead to no notable results.

im myself amazed, how they manage to occupy this amount of ram on boot. i dont know about morphos, but in comparison aros68k, which is comparable featurewise i think, needs on an amiga around 6 mb to boot to the full wanderer

Last edited by wawa on 30-Sep-2016 at 10:37 AM.

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wawa 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 30-Sep-2016 10:42:04
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@thellier

Quote:
In fact you CAN but only with Wazp3D software mode*


;)

since you dont, may i mention here, that your wazp3d delivers under winuae a wrapper for host hardware 3d acceleration that works for genuine amiga emulation (os3.x..)

just to make the "big picture" ab bit more complete.

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Zylesea 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 30-Sep-2016 13:03:26
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@wawa

MorphOS on my Efika has 82 MB free after boot up. With a bit more tweakng the occupied RAM could get reduced a bit more. According to Geit MorphOS can get as low as 15 MB (http://www.geit.de/deu_morphostweaks.html).

On my A1200PPC with 64+2 MB I had about 40 MB available after boot up Iwith MorphOS 1.4.5 IRC.

_________________
My programs: via.bckrs.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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Thorham 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 30-Sep-2016 13:19:09
#33 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

Quote:
Severin wrote:

has had non commodore hardware connected like graphics cards, sound cards, accelerators and SSD harddrives, then ut's just a mongrel


What a total and utter nonsense

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Beans 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 30-Sep-2016 13:27:15
#34 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 447
From: Bear Delaware USA

@Severin

Quote:
It's not a real amiga if made after 1994 or has had non commodore hardware connected


Wow! That IS a stupid comment.
By that logic, my Lenovo SFF PC isn't a Lenovo because it has a Quadro K1200 video card in it.

Luckily I don't consider my MorphOS systems Amigas (frankly they work better than that).
OS4 users will have to take pot shots from people like this whether they use it on classic equipment or AmigaOnes, thanks to the 'not invented here' sentiment of fanatics like this.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

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thinkchip 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 30-Sep-2016 13:45:17
#35 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Mar-2004
Posts: 1183
From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

@Beans

I've had my AmigaOne Micro for years. It is very reliable. I know exactly where it came from. It displays over sixteen million colors in 1024 X 1280 with no additional hardware. It runs Amiga OS 4.1. It looks and works like an Amiga. It is an Amiga. It won't run a lot of legacy software, but there is a lot of native PPC software available. I don't know why anyone would prefer crippled 22-year-old hardware and OS3.

_________________
X5000 / microA1(OS4.1 FE U2) / CodeBench / Imagine / Blender
Lightwave 2019 / Microsoft Visual C++

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wawa 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 30-Sep-2016 13:50:48
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Zylesea

Quote:

MorphOS on my Efika has 82 MB free after boot up. With a bit more tweakng the occupied RAM could get reduced a bit more. According to Geit MorphOS can get as low as 15 MB (http://www.geit.de/deu_morphostweaks.html).

On my A1200PPC with 64+2 MB I had about 40 MB available after boot up Iwith MorphOS 1.4.5 IRC.


interesting. btw afair aros can boot and run shell aps without s-s and loading wanderer with some 1-2bm of ram total. you even have a simple desktop targeted at a floppy usage called workbook, unfortunately not fully completed but functional.

funny enough this confirms that in comparison of all three amigaos offshots aros is still the least bloathed and ressource conscious in true spirit of genuine amiga system :D. who would expect that from a system developed initially mostly for x86 hardware ;P

just to imagine what could be achieved with some further work put into it, with better compiler support, and some wortk on binary size and speed issues that are admittedly an anoyance especially on 68k architecture.

Last edited by wawa on 30-Sep-2016 at 01:54 PM.

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AmigaOldskooler 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 30-Sep-2016 17:41:41
#37 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2015
Posts: 282
From: Unknown

@Dave73

Hi and welcome back to the world of Amiga. :)

The popular event AmiWest is due in apx. one week. Hopefully we'll get some news on the upcoming systems from A-EON, namely the AmigaOne X5000 and the Tabor 1222. My advice is to wait and see if a release date is announced for these systems.

There are plenty of Amiga dealers around the world, for example Amigastore.eu, Alinea Computing, Vesalia, AmigaKit, GGS in Sweden, RetroAmi in Poland and many more. When the new systems are available for purchase, you can get them directly from a shop that offers guarantees and service. If you buy a pre-installed ready to go system (like the AmigaOne 500 from ACube), it's just a matter of hooking up mouse, keyboard etc, and pushing the power on button and off you go. ;)

I advice you to have a look at this brilliant website that contains a ton of helpful information concerning AmigaOS 4:

http://www.amigaos.net/

There is also MorphOS that works on several types of PPC Macs, even laptops. You can try the OS for free on one of these systems, which is great. You can get laptops cheaply off eBay. It's worth mentioning that MorphOS also will work on the AmigaOne X5000 when it is released.

Hope this was of some help and wish you the best of luck in your search for an Amiga setup. :)

_________________
Old School Game Blog
Gaming on AmigaOS 4
Void - Amiga Demo Group

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Rob 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 30-Sep-2016 19:08:23
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@AmigaOldskooler

Quote:
The popular event AmiWest is due in apx. one week. Hopefully we'll get some news on the upcoming systems from A-EON, namely the AmigaOne X5000 and the Tabor 1222. My advice is to wait and see if a release date is announced for these systems.


Timothy De Groote recently posted this.

@amigakit

Allow me then Matthew :)

To all interested, OS4.1 for AmigaOne X5000 is on track and you can except some news soon on this. And soon means soon !


Link

The question is whether the announcement will be that the release candidate has been signed off and will ship in x amount of time, or will it be that the discs and board are already at your preferred dealer and ready to buy.

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Thorham 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 30-Sep-2016 19:36:01
#39 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

Quote:
thinkchip wrote:

It looks and works like an Amiga. It is an Amiga.


By that logic a peecee in an Amiga case booting Aros or into WinUae directly is an Amiga as well

Quote:
thinkchip wrote:

I don't know why anyone would prefer crippled 22-year-old hardware and OS3.

Because it's actual Amiga hardware perhaps?

Quote:
thinkchip wrote:

prefer crippled



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CodeSmith 
Re: Help me rejoin the flock...
Posted on 1-Oct-2016 2:16:17
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
im myself amazed, how they manage to occupy this amount of ram on boot. i dont know about morphos, but in comparison aros68k, which is comparable featurewise i think, needs on an amiga around 6 mb to boot to the full wanderer


Yeah, that's the ballpark I was expecting. Obviously it's not going to be just a couple hundred KB any more since larger disks need bigger buffers and device drivers for things like video cards and USB mice and keyboards are a lot more complex than anything on a plain A1200, but that's just a ton of memory.

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