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BigD 
Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 15-Dec-2016 12:37:09
#1 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3674
From: UK

BBC: Three Parent Babies given the all clear

We've probably all seen the horrific images of mutilated and deformed Ellen Ripley clones in Alien Resurrection but we probably all assumed that the dignity of human life would be respected in the UK and that genetic manipulation of humans would remain in the pages of comic books. However, it seems the UK is keen to throw common sense out the window and embark on another society wide experiment (like same sex marriage) this time mixing genetic material from 'three parents' to form an embryo.

While people argue that the mitochondrial element is purely an energy source for the cells and carries no discernible traits from the '2nd mother' it is evident that this is another step towards designer babies! While on one hand people expound the theory of evolution and tout 'survival of the fittest' they on the other hand experiment with genetics. By encouraging people that carry genetic problems to agree to this 'Frankenstein' practice rather than encouraging them to adopt, they risk the contamination of the human genome with artificial human instigated alteration. This in my view is the epitome of selfishness on the parents part. There is no way for sure we will now the outcome of this risk until it is too late.

No other country is as liberal with protection and legislation on this issue. Rather than encourage people to adopt more children and pushing for a reduction of the nearly 200,000 abortions in the UK every year, we instead concoct ever more elaborate and expensive ways of allowing 'risky' category parents to still have children while murdering healthy children in the womb. It is a society gone mad and other than our increase in technological knowledge we are morally comparable to the last days of Rome!

This procedure does nothing for those already suffering with mitochondrial disease. All it does is allow rich parents who are hoodwinked by the medical establishment to again hand over their eggs and sperm to allow ever more experimentation on sacred human life in the test tube (as per IVF). This is a license to destroy human life as well as create 'perfected' individuals (eugenics?). Many healthy embryos are harvested for their mitochondria and many embryos are destroyed in the trial and error nature of this research and procedure. A dark day for Britain masquerading as progress

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 4-Feb-2017 23:00:05
#2 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3674
From: UK

@BigD

New Scientist: World's First 3 Parent Baby Born

Quote:
Neither method has been approved in the US, so Zhang went to Mexico instead, where he says “there are no rules”. He is adamant that he made the right choice. “To save lives is the ethical thing to do,” he says.


Quote: Dr Ian Malcolm, character from Jurassic Park 1993

Quote:
Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.


The genie is now well and truely out of the bottle! And to think the world's gone mad about Trump's behaviour! The UK has already legalised this immoral embryo destroying procedure and I don't see anyone taking to the streets to protest against this!

I blame the media for completely controlling the agenda on what's is and what isn't newsworthy. Trump is a democratically elected President who is attempting to govern the US as a CEO (hence the attitude) rather than a politically correct career politician. The real evil in the world is coming from our own apathetic MPs with no grasp of right or wrong and are just self serving 'yes men' wanting to further their own careers.

Rather than the NHS wasting more money on 'helping' people have babies at the expense of the general tax payer (and unlucky 'harvested' embryos) we should be streamlining the service so that it is conomically feasible going forwards. If we didn't abort 200,000 babies a year we wouldn't need IVF or this mitochodrial embryo harvesting to artificially impregnate people with genetic problems as people could adopt the children society currently murders. In addition we'd be less reliant on immigration because we wouldn't be killing our own citizens by the 100,000s every year!

The world's gone mad and it's not Trump and Brexit that is the issue.

Last edited by BigD on 04-Feb-2017 at 11:06 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 5-Feb-2017 20:26:32
#3 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1172
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD
The "Three parent baby" is purely a means of eradicating faulty DNA and enabling parents to have a healthy child, not cloning, or genetic manipulation to engineer some kind of superhuman. Also note that in the bible, abortion is not classed as "murder", and in fact its use is condoned as a form of fidelity test. Or do you know nothing about the religion that you want to impose and make compulsory throughout the world.
Be advised that your vile cult of death has aleady had its opportunity to show its true colours whren it held the reins of power throughout Europe. That period of history was called "The Dark Ages"
What *evidence* do you have to set your imaginary friend up as any different than Anoia, Benzeiten, Cronus, Dionysus, Eros, Freya, Geb, Hera, Isis, Jupiter, Kephri Loki, Marduk, Nemesis, Osiris, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Ra, Saturn, Tengri, Uller, Vesta, Wadjet, Xanthe, Yakshini, or Zeus.
There are over 1100 different religions, and your preferred religion, Christianity, is subdivided into over 42,000 different denominations, persuasions, movements, communities, schisms, sects, orders and cults. Many of them involved in violent disputes with other "Christians". This very disunity among followers is the best possible indication that there is not a single grain of truth in the entire stinking cesspit of religious ideology.

“Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.” Christopher Hitchens. How religion poisons everything.

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 5-Feb-2017 22:10:27
#4 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3674
From: UK

@Nimrod

We live in a fallen world where it is impossible to 'eradicate' faulty DNA. The best we can hope for is to screen prospective parents and 'advise' them to adopt if there is a high propability of genetic problems. Throwing money at eugenics programs like this mitochondria transfer is not the solution. It is unproven science that will have far reaching and unpredictable effects on the human genome going forwards. We are all too aware of the risks of GM crops and yet don't bat an eyelid when scientists try and mix genetic material from 3 parents destroying human embryos along the way and passing it off as the common good!

With regards to your comments about the pointless pursuit of man-made religion; it's a good thing that Jesus despised religion isn't it? Either people believe Jesus was the Messiah and hence God on earth in human form taking the punishment for our sins via his death on the cross or they don't. It's that simple! Believers and non-believers. I suspect half the people in the Church of England don't believe in the resurrection so why do they bother with all the religious observance rubbish? Absolutely pointless, they may as well spend their Sundays watching the football or down the working men's club if they are not actually going to take Jesus' teachings seriously! What a living faith in Jesus does give you is some moral direction and a sense of the sanctity of life which is severly lacking in the UK's society today. This is probably because people like Dawkins use pseudo/armchair fake-science to convince the uncritical that we 'evolved' from ameoba when the signs of creative design are all too obvious.

Religion is pointless and simply an exercise in man trying to reach God through his own efforts when the only way is through Jesus or not at all.

Fanatical atheism and the idolising of man's power to manipulate human biology and philosophise away the decision to destroy human life at whim would also class as a form of idol worship or religion!

The Romans had similar depraved views on infanticide, abortion and the lack of value placed on human life and their civilisation imploded. Perhaps we should learn from history and avoid repeating the same mistakes again rather than assume we are the pinnacle of all human civilisation and charge on regardless because we think we know what we're doing. Either that or we assume some rogue doctors in Mexico or the Life Centre, Newcastle can be left to meddle to their hearts content because human embryos are a limitless chemistry set which demand to be mutalated, spliced and ultimately murdered so that life can get better for the rich few!

Last edited by BigD on 05-Feb-2017 at 10:15 PM.

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A1200 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 5-Feb-2017 22:31:37
#5 ]
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Joined: 5-May-2003
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From: Westhall, UK

@BigD

BigD you were doing so well at behaving like a normal person. Please don't spoil it by bringing back religious zealotism to the forum. Cheers.

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 0:15:10
#6 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3674
From: UK

@A1200

Being a Christian is perfectly normal as is caring for the unborn as they can't stand up for themselves can they? I have to put up with the hypocritical banaclava wearing liberals and deluded anti-democracy feminists fuming about Trump's aggressive undiplomatic politics so the least you can do is stop your patronising tone and think about some other less than savoury things going on in the world. Please accept that some people have a different world view than your own even in secular post modern Britain (which still has mostly Biblically informed laws, thank God)!

Last edited by BigD on 06-Feb-2017 at 12:51 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 06-Feb-2017 at 12:17 AM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 22:53:27
#7 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2010
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From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD
Thankfully Britain does not have biblical laws. People are no longer burned at the stake as witches, nor is slavery legal. In fact the time period in which biblical laws and religion were enforced in Britain (and the rest of Europe was called "The Dark Ages" a time when people lived in squalor while bishops decked themselves in gold and grew fat. A time when prayer was deemed the best remedy for illnesses.
Also your comment about Atheism being a religion demonstrates both your ignorance of what Atheism is and your blatant dishonesty.
There are more than 1100 different religions, all but one of which you disbelieve. I disbelieve just one more than you do.
Can you cite any proof that your chosen religion is any more true than Zoroastrianism? You criticize the "less than savoury things in the world, and yet the most unsavoury is the negative influence of religion, including the Christ-stain religion.
One might be asked "How can you prove that a god does not exist?" One can only reply that it is scarcely necessary to disprove what has never been proved. - David A. Spitz[quote]

And don't get all holier than thou about abortion. The bible not only fails to prohibit it, the bible gives specific instructions on how to induce an abortion as a fidelity test of a pregnant woman, in a similar manner to the old test for witchcraft. (Numbers 5:11-31)

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 7-Feb-2017 0:18:08
#8 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3674
From: UK

@Nimrod

I'll keep this brief as what you seem to be describing is the effects of the corruption of the Holy Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic Church both of which deviated considerably from the teachings of the Bible and the Early Church.

The Biblical basis of our laws stems from the Magna Carta and continues to this day with the Queen being defender of the faith i.e. Christianty. Daily prayers (Christian) are mandatory in CofE schools and many councils. Our method of law and the many statutes that it is built on come from the Bible. Selflessness and sacrifice is central to what we view as honourable in our culture primarily due to Jesus' example. In many cultures survival of the fittest, saving face and dog eat dog societal norms are far more prevelant.

In my view, the dogma of unquestioning atheism/evolution brings about a severe disconnect with how that 'belief system' suggests we should act (in evolution, the strong should survive and the weak should die). However, it does a lot to explain why human life is considered both supremely important as far as the atheist's OWN life goes, i.e. there's no hope on death so live at all costs, and yet completely undervalued when they are talking about the unborn, i.e. they're nothing more than the protoplasm/pond scum organisms that humanity is suggested to have evolved from so harvest them for all their worth!

In regards to Numbers 5:11-31 your understanding of the passage is incorrect and based on a mistranslation contained within the NIV version of the Bible. It is the only version to translate Hebrew for 'to rot', or 'waste away', נֹפֶ֥לֶת (nō·p̄e·leṯ) as miscarriage. It is translated elsewhere in the NIV as 'to fall down' indicating scholary weakness in this version. Compare the versions below:

English Standard Version
May this water that brings the curse pass into your bowels and make your womb swell and your thigh fall away.

King James Bible
And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot:

None of 18 other translations use miscarriage as the translation for נֹפֶ֥לֶת (nō·p̄e·leṯ) in this passage.

In general, I'm sorry you're unable to see Jesus' rebukes against sadducees and pharisees as a fact that a living faith in Jesus is incompatible with man-made 'religion'. I have less interest in the world religions than you do and I prefer to study to find the truth and there is very little to be contained in either the atheistic religious texts of the God Delusion (it certainly is more hyperbole than proper science) or historical studies of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church of medieval Europe. Fair play if you like studying that time period as I have had opportunity to but quite frankly if you'd like to know more about my motivation then you'd be better off reading Mark's Gospel (nice and short and to the point).

In closing, the unborn deserve our protection against these sick opportunist rogue scientists and the crooked UK MPs that enable them. Embryos are not bacteria in Petri dishes to be destroyed and toyed with for dubious eugenics style outcomes.

I'm sorry you don't think the weakest members of our society need protecting (the unborn) but in all honesty I wouldn't expect anyone holding up the theory of evolution as fact to think any different Without the Bible and teachings on the sanctity of life I guess they're just another resource for man to abuse and plunder for selfish gain?

Last edited by BigD on 07-Feb-2017 at 12:29 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 07-Feb-2017 at 12:27 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 07-Feb-2017 at 12:23 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 07-Feb-2017 at 12:20 AM.

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Rob 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 9-Feb-2017 6:10:48
#9 ]
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Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5411
From: S.Wales

@BigD

Quote:
In my view, the dogma of unquestioning atheism/evolution brings about a severe disconnect with how that 'belief system' suggests we should act (in evolution, the strong should survive and the weak should die)


Surely by definition atheism is the opposite of unquestioning faith.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 9-Feb-2017 17:55:27
#10 ]
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Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@All

Well I see that some things never change.

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 9-Feb-2017 18:40:13
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3674
From: UK

@fairlanefastback

Yeah they do. Experimenting on humans used to be something that was considered a Nazi policy and outlawed as 'eugenics' but now it's endorsed by the UK government!

@Rob
Secularism has brought with it unquestioning atheists who sign up to whatever Dawkins, Darwin or Hawkins write down without actually reading it themselves or questioning their theories! I'd say this is the new 'dark ages' where people are too busy Tweeting about Trump to notice the dangerous cultural disintegration around them. But as long as the hipsters in New York, London and L.A. get internet access and fancy coffee I guess life wil carry on

@Thread
I guess it's just easier for liberals to be 'above' all this talk of faith in Jesus and morality, disengage from the actual arguments and label their opposition as fanatics. That's not progress that's true bigotry and inequality at play right there plus lazy pseudo-intellectuality (all the things the 'enlightened' are supposed to hate)!

Here is the UK's true liberal/secular post-1960s legacy = dead babies, mutilated embryos, rich immoral biochemists and ambivalent politicians caught napping!

Alien Resurrection type genetic experimentation and disposal of embyos like waste products has already happened, next stop saviour siblings, designer babies, humans birthed to provide replacement organs, infanticide and euthanasia. Sick eugenics ideals maskerading as impressive progress and caring science/medicine


Alien Resurrection (1997) - Clones of Ripley

... and if you still think everything is great with 'civilised' European liberal states and think America and Trump are the main problem in the world then read this chilling story:

Telegraph: Doctor asked the family to hold down an elderly woman while she fought not to be euthanised (Dr cleared of wrong doing)

Last edited by BigD on 09-Feb-2017 at 10:36 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 09-Feb-2017 at 10:26 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 09-Feb-2017 at 06:41 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 12-Feb-2017 14:39:57
#12 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1172
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD

The "Defender of the Faith" that HM the Q uses was first bestowed on Henry VIII by his holiness Pope Leo X To the best of my knowledge Pope Leo was one of those Catholics you disparage so much.
Incidentally selflessness and sacrifice are not something unique to Christian cultures, in fact while Christians have proved to be excellent at talking the talk, they are sadly lacking when it comes to walking the walk. hence the comment by Mohandas K. Gandhi (Hindu) 'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Your ignorance of ancient Aramaic euphemisms is appalling in someone seeking to advance biblical apologetics. The use of "thigh" to mean the uterus and its contents is as well known as the use of "feet" so signify the visible genitalia. Hence the reason Ruth uncovered the feet of Boaz to express her desire for him, and in Isaiah 7:20 the king of the Assyrians having the "hair of his feet" shaved. Basically Isaiah claimed that the Assyrian king would be humiliated and turned into a little boy by the might of the Jewish messiah.

I will ask again what evidence you have that distinguishes your belief in your chosen invisible magic skyfairy from belief in the invisible magic skyfairies of the more than 1100 different and disparate religions that exist in this world. Why should I treat your plagiarised myths and legends any differently than I treat the gods of Ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, or the Norse and Germanic gods such as Tiw, Odin, Thor and Frigg whose names remain as over half of the days of the week.
What makes any quote from the "Wholly Babble" any more relevant than the line "Only Ahura-Mazda is worthy of worship" taken from the Avestas of Zoroastrianism.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 12-Feb-2017 15:02:36
#13 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1172
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD
Atheism and evolution are two entirely separate and disconnected matters. Atheism is the recognition that there is as little evidence that one randomly selected religion is real as there is that any other randomly selected religion is. and your chosen religion is not exempted from that recognition
How to become an Atheist in 3 easy steps
1. Pick any god other than your own.
2. Create a full list of valid reasons why you don't believe in it without referring to your own religion.
3. Apply this same list of valid reasons to your own chosen deity.

The scientific theory of evolution by natural selection is a scientifically validated explanation of biodiversity. Nothing more, nothing less. The original hypothesis withstood the rigours of testing to become a full scientific theory more than one hundred and fifty years ago, and the subsequent century and a half of continued testing has led to the theory being revised slightly by the addition of knowledge from the sciences of genetics, molecular biology and the ability of scientists to "read" the information held in the DNA of every cell in your body. DNA which proves your common ancestry with Apes

Also note that the phrase "Survival of the fittest" indicates that among any given sample that which is the least badly adapted will have the better chance of reproducing. It does not mean strongest, or most ruthless. In fact species that co-operate improve their chances of survival over the more ruthless individualistic types. A mother who either eats her own young or dies as a result of overproducing young does not perpetuae the species. One who either puts herself at risk to protect her existing young, or limits overproduction improves the prospects for her young to thrive.

Your ideal of persistent and continual overproduction matches that of a yeast cell. A brewer will fill his vat with everything a single yeast cell could possibly wish for and then adds the yeast with an injunction to go forth, be fruitful. Multiply and fill the vat. The yeast does so until it dies, drowned in its own waste product (Alcohol) Are you smarter than a yeast cell? Apparently not.

P.S. We already tried to live by biblical rules. The period in history is called The Dark Ages

Last edited by Nimrod on 12-Feb-2017 at 03:06 PM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 12-Feb-2017 at 03:05 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 13-Feb-2017 2:27:27
#14 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3674
From: UK

@Nimrod

Quote:
and your chosen religion is not exempted from that recognition


The fact that you consider a faith in Jesus Christ as just a "chosen religion" does not match up with history and I remind you of your homework to read Mark's gospel (they'll be a test ).

Jesus' life is historically assured as is his death. From studying historical accounts (read Frank Morrison's - Who Moved the Stone if you'd rather study from an atheist's point of view of Jesus' life) your only option is to deduce from what Jesus said he was either;

1) The Son of God, the Messish, God on earth sent by his Father to make a way for man to be atoned for their sins by sacrificial death on the cross (i.e. exactly what he claimed to be).

2) A madman.

3) The Antichrist

He cannot be just a learned teacher like the 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter' personality of Ghandi or Mohammed. Jesus' life was miraculous and it was sacrificial for humanity to give us a way of escape from the sins that would damn us to hell.

Quote:
The scientific theory of evolution by natural selection is a scientifically validated explanation of biodiversity.


Yes, Finches beaks have been seen to change shape as the scarcity of food varies on the Galapagos. That does not mean that natural selection somehow proves evolution (changes in species to the point they can no longer reproduce with their fellow 'finches') or that that is the logical conclusion! Poor pseudo science like the belief that natural selection proves the THEORY of evolution is a 'belief system' and is leading us into a period of unquestioning and ignorance. Atheists are swallowing poorly written tripe like The God Delusion without properly reading it or the counter argument; The Dawkins Delusion by Alister McGrath (far more concise and less 'deluded'/angry).

Quote:
DNA which proves your common ancestry with Apes


Are you for real?! The commonality of our DNA with apes simply indicates that we are made out of very similar building blocks. We have 40% of our DNA in common with a mushroom so was your great great great to the power of 80 grandfather therefore a tree fungus? The fact that we are made of very similar 'genetic lego' and are able to have conscious thought and abilities far beyond the animals we govern on planet earth is nothing short of a miracle and points to a creator. You see commanality and see an common ancestor, I see commonality and see a common creator! A creator who cares about his creation and would see experimentation, murder and genetic abuse as a method of population control or improving our society as deeply shocking and heart breaking.

Our society sees human embryos as a commodity like a common cold bateri in a Petri dish, just as worthy of incineration or experimentation and all you want to do is debate medieval history where the Roman Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire persecuted Christians until the Reformation brought actual Biblical scholarship to the fore again and allowed the common man to study the Bible for himself. The Huguenots were one of the only groups of Christians left in a small enclave of Europe following years of persecution by 'organised human centred RELIGION' and power grabbing from the corrupted church who ended up worshipping Mary on the same level as Jesus! If that doesn't sound like a corruption to you then I'd suggest medieval history is not for you.

Last edited by BigD on 13-Feb-2017 at 02:34 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 13-Feb-2017 at 02:30 AM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 13-Feb-2017 13:51:10
#15 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1172
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD If the existence of your pantomime's principal boy is so "historically assured" how come there is no record of either him or the events reported in the "Wholly babble" made by any contemporary or near contemporary historical source. Philo of Alexandria was living in Jerusalem during the time Pilate was Preafect and yet he makes no mention of any three hour period of darkness, nor any earthquake causing damage to the temple of Herod and especially no zombie apocalypse with corpses wandering around the markets before inviting themselves to tea and biscuits with their former acquaintances.
Likewise no mention of any army of 5,000 assembling then dispersing exists in any military record made by the Roman army.
Also whover wrote the "Gospel of Mark" knew nothing of the geography of Galilee and even less about Jewish law. As a result of this I offer the fourth and most likely explanation of the stories about "Jesus" that is the best explanation. The entire thing is a work of fiction, just like the Book of Mormon

Did you know that while relious apologists are still trying to disprove the original hypotheses of Charles Darwin, scientists have been testing and refining his theories. Hillier et.al found the exact position in human chromosome 2 where the telomere to reverse telomere splice joined simian chromosome2p to simian chromosome 2q. They also found the deactivated centromere in exactly the right location, out of more than 242,000,000 base pairs. That is a little bit closer that your 40% mushroom comment.

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 13-Feb-2017 22:04:27
#16 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3674
From: UK

@Nimrod

I've already suggested that you read Frank Morrison's Who Moved the Stone and if you actually want answers to your 'history related' question I really do strongly recommend that you read it.

I also suggest you give Mark's gospel another go but with a more open mind.

Quote:
Did you know that while relious apologists are still trying to disprove the original hypotheses of Charles Darwin, scientists have been testing and refining his theories.


Rubbish, they just build assumptions on top of assumptions and draw false conclusions and try and use science to back up their atheistic world view. There is no evidence of a species jump and every evidence of mutation and degrading of DNA over generations (not impovements creating higher level animals other than small natural selection factors). There are more genetic abnormalities in the human genome as generations pass not less. Our world is fallen and that has affected genetics itself and the health of our DNA passed down to our children. Mutations create weakness and cancer not progress and stronger individuals.

All this is completely off topic however and without a more considerate and higher view of human life the weak will always be attacked and undermined for the good of the rich and even more so in your 'enlightened' Britain! Equality does not apply to the unborn but who cares as those poor Mexicans might have to pay for a wall and Trump has bad hair! Get your priorities right (the way we treat the unborn) and stop hiding behind lazy scientists who are biased and blinded to any other theories other than those that back up an atheistic world view!

Last edited by BigD on 13-Feb-2017 at 10:07 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 13-Feb-2017 22:21:13
#17 ]
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@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
Hillier et.al found the exact position in human chromosome 2 where the telomere to reverse telomere splice joined simian chromosome2p to simian chromosome 2q. They also found the deactivated centromere in exactly the right location, out of more than 242,000,000 base pairs. That is a little bit closer that your 40% mushroom comment.


Sounds like they started from the premise 'how did we 'evolve' 23 chromosones rather than 24 in Simians and then tried to concoct science to back up an evolutionary jump! Reverse science then

From: Nothing But Science
Quote:
As it happens, human chromosome 2 shows strong evidence of being two fused chromosomes.


Evidence not proof. It is a sign of a desperate scientist trying to back up the theory of evolution with something tangable!

Again from: Nothing But Science
Quote:
In other words, he is saying that if two ancestral primates had offspring with the fused chromosome, then that offspring would have 23 chromosomes whereas the rest of the population still had 24. Mating between the two could not occur as a result, thus the fused chromosome could never make it beyond a single generation. The most obvious solution to this problem is that several members of a population experienced a fusion event. It could have been a completely chance event, or it could have been due to a particular mutation that had spread down the line.


Wow, have we observed a fused chromosone in apes in nature? Yet we are supposed to believe that several occured in one generation from some sort of 'ordered mutation' kickstarting a new species! If that isn't a faith position I don't know what is. You've got strong 'faith' than me if you believe that flimsy hypothesis!

Maybe you would advocate that we should try and unfuse the chromosones of a few helpless human fetuses to aid this endeavour. If it doesn't work I guess there's no harm done. Heaven forbid they should actually be allowed to be born normally putting a drain on the Earth's resources

Last edited by BigD on 13-Feb-2017 at 10:24 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 22:46:53
#18 ]
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@BigD
First on the "history".
In Matthew's nativity myth it clearly states that Jesus was "a young child" during the reign of Herod the Great. Herod died in 4BC, and was succeeded by his sons, with each inheriting a portion of Herods kingdoms. Archelaus ruled in Judaea and Samaria, Antipas got Galilee and the east bank of the Jordan, while Philip got the Golan heights. Archelaus made such a poor job of ruling that he was deposed by Augustus Caesar in AD6 and Judaea with Samaria came under direct Roman rule under Publius Sulpicius Quirinius. Only then did Judaea and Samara (but not Galilee, east Jordan or Golan) become liable for Roman census and taxation.
According to Luke's legend Jesus was still "in utero" at this time, ten years after the supposed exile in Egypt. Did he crawl back up his mothers (See You Next Tuesday) to hide from Herod? Or did the two authors make up the birth stories to "flesh out" the sparse narrative offered by Mark sometime around the fall of Jerusalem in AD70

Concerning Marks lack of knowledge of the geography of Galilee, he has Jesus take a casual morning stroll from Tyre to Sidon and then on to Tiberias for a spot of fishing and a quick stroll across the lake. Unfortunately this is a total of eighty miles of rough road, including doubling back on yourself because the only road from Sidon to Tiberias led back through Tyre.
Furthermore whoever wrote the drivel called "The gospel of Mark" knew nothing of Jewish law.
Mark 10
12 "And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery."
Any Jew living in first century Galilee would know that women were no more than property. No Jewish woman had the right or the power to divorce her husband any more than a slave had the right to sell its owner. Only Roman women had the right to divorce, and it was the Herodian kings secular and Romanised lifestyles that irritated the Jews of the first century, just as secularism is seen by you as something to be eradicated by methods enjoyed by Christians throughout history.

As for your lies about science Darwin set out on his voyage specifically looking for evidence that would prove William Paley's "Watchmaker" hypothesis to be true. He believed in the creation myths as recounted in the bible and was a devout Christian theologian who intended to eventually settle as a rector. However the more he looked at the evidence that he had acquired the more he realised that it didn't support his preconceptions but instead pointed away from the need for a guiding intelligence.
In science if the evidence does not match the hypothesis you adjust the hypothesis. Only religion seeks to hide, distort twist or destroy evidence that doesn't match the preconceived conclusion.

Mutation is a change in DNA, not a degradation nor an improvement, just a change. If the environment hasn't changed then the change in the mutated young is unlikely to offer a significant advantage over its non-mutated siblings. However in a changing environment the mutated offspring may well have the advantage. In order to understand this fully you would need to have been educated in critical thinking rather than indoctrinated in a set of mutually contradictory myths and legends.

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Nimrod 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 15-Feb-2017 23:19:38
#19 ]
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From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD
Quote:
Sounds like they started from the premise 'how did we 'evolve' 23 chromosones rather than 24 in Simians
I have no doubt that there was a certain amount of truth in your statement, but you need to understand something about what science is.
In the human cell there are 23 chromosome pairs and 22 of them very closely match 22 of the 24 Simian chromosome pairs. The Simian has two short chromosomes and the human has one chromosome that is the same length as the two Simian chromosomes so it is entirely feasible that Hillier would have thought "Does this explain the different number of chromosomes?"
Not only has the Human genome been fully sequenced, but so has the Gorilla genome, the Chimpanzee genome, the Bonobo genome, the Orang-Utan genome, and the genomes of Neanderthal and Denisovan bones found in archaeological excavations.
The "splice" found at exactly the correct location together with the correct "deactivated" centromere at exactly the right location in a chain of almost a quarter of a billion base pairs. That is not a coincidence.
Neither is it "concocted".

Quote:
Wow, have we observed a fused chromosome in apes in nature?
Yes. You see one every time you look into a mirror, and so do I.
The mutation occurred just once in a small group and did not immediately cause speciation, just as the near neighbours in ring species are still interfertile. The one "ape-like ancestor with a spliced chromosome pair would have produced young with the same mutation, just as the first human with blood group A, the first human with blood group B, the first blonde human and the first human with blue eyes.

You say that evidence is not proof, and certainly if I flip a coin and it shows heads it is not proof that the coin has two "heads". If however I flip the coin 242,000,000 times and every time shows heads I think the coin would be somewhat suspect.

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BigD 
Re: Three Parent Babies given the all clear in the UK
Posted on 23-Mar-2017 19:08:57
#20 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
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From: UK

@Nimrod

Quote:
The one "ape-like ancestor with a spliced chromosome pair would have produced young with the same mutation, just as the first human with blood group A, the first human with blood group B, the first blonde human and the first human with blue eyes.


That is a ridiculous example. What I meant of course was where are the examples of modern apes being born with fused chromosomes today? This mutation must have happened multiple times in the past (if at all ) in order that there be two 'evolved' apes to reproduce with one another. Just because Simian's have two shorter chromosomes and we have one long one in addition to the 22 we have in common doesn't not mean we have observed the 'actual' fusion of the two shorter chromosomes in nature. Where are the 'new' evolved humans walking out of the jungle having been born from two Chimps? There is NO actual proof of evolution only of natural selection. No new species has been observed as evolving in nature to the point where it can't reproduce with the same species as its parents. This pseudo science is conjecture that comes from people wanting to join fictitious dot to dots that aren't there and aren't provable.

Quote:
but you need to understand something about what science is.


You are out of line there. As previously divulged I have a Geology degree and am studying for a Masters. I'm perfectly aware of what science is and accepting the theory of evolution as proven fact definitely isn't science!! While we're on the subject neither is measuring the brain cavity of different Simians, comparing it to the larger brain cavity of a human and then deducing we evolved from them!! That is how human evolution was presented to us at University by some 'quack' and passed off as science too!!

It's a complete joke when unobserved earth 'HISTORY' is passed off as pure science rather than what it actually is; HISTORY informed by scientific theory. Natural history carries all the baggage of 'HISTORY' including the implications of interpretation, primary/secondary sources and weighing the evidence, etc. It is not provable in the same way that the scientific method can be used to 'prove' the laws of Physics for example. Your world view (a faith position in itself) informs your BELIEF that we MUST have evolved from Simians whereas my faith position informs my BELIEF (often supported by science) that God created us in His image. No provable true provable science (rather than over-egged theory) dispels the TRUTHS written in the Bible including Genesis.

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