@bison

i never counted the lines of code, but aros is admiteddly a pretty complex project that offers huge number of features. what else have you expected? ;)

however aros is pretty simple to set up and build automatically. as you may have seen on the page i linked to, you simply need to check for and install a number of rather obvious packages, checkout the source, configure, specifying your target and few options you may neednd make.

aros source is assembled from separate modules, such as individual programs or binaries, so you can then make or update these modules individually simply invoking
make $(module name to be found in an appropriate mmake file)

working on and immediately testing specific parts of code is really simple then, especially for an experienced programmer (im not one of them).

currently im researching the option of debugging aros 68k with appropriate gdb, which alas works for me only with kickstart symbols atm, on x86 it works flawlessly and very comfortably for all the code.

Last edited by wawa on 18-Dec-2016 at 08:26 PM.

@bison

Quote:

What's the deal with that?

I'd be equally interested in knowing why.

Was this stipulation part of some agreement with Amiga Inc.?

And also unrelated, has the AROS team ever head any dialogue with Cloanto about collaborating?

From a technical standpoint, I appreciate that white room reverse-engineering may be desirable but we're a bit beyond protecting IP at this stage.

@nikosidis

for most still active amiga users 68k (or better 3.X) is the only amiga, because of that vampire is a relative success in amiga terms. Aros 68k running good on Vampire would potentially multiply the aros user base. I know that parts of the aros devs (expecially some of the aros distribution maintainers) have a negative attitude regarding 68k but the reality is that NG (the same is true for MorphOS, AmigaOS and AROS) never lifted off in the last 10-12 years, most software is 68k and will stay so. For me 68k is the only chance to get back some activity, of course as a niche platform not as competition to mainstream. Wawa is doing a lot there so do not bash him.

@OlafS25&wawa

Seems there was a bit of confusion. Unless I'm mistaken Nikolaos was addressing beams, not wawa. That's how I interpreted it at least.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 19-Dec-2016 at 11:31 AM.

@fishy_fis

no offence taken. no matter, who is addressed, i thought the subject deserves some general comment, exactly in order, not to stir the pot. i value nikolaos engagement, remember his general attitude and neither actually intend nor expect to change it.

@pavlor

Agreed, OS4 closely resembles OS3.1, more so than other NG OS'.
And both OS4 and MorphOS do a better job of running some 68K binaries with resorting to UAE.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

I was not addressing anyone. I just read some comments about why inklude Amiga in topic in AROS thread etc.
I think that had little to do with the thread in general and seamed to me as negative. No offence if I took it the wrong way. I think we can just leave that discussion closed.

As far as Amiga goes we all know it went bankrupt long time ago. After that some picked up the name and most failed until Hyperion too over and decided to make OS4 PPC.
As we know all this resulted in 3 different flavours.
Sure the PPC route was the wrong direction, but it is easy to be hindsight.
My point is that AROS or MorphOS is no less Amiga than OS4. From what I heard AROS and MorphOS
is more compatible API level than OS4 for whatever that matters. We have mostly the same apps. running anyway.

We had joined efforts that resulted in both Odyssey web-browser and DOpus megellan.

I wanted to show in the video how far AROS has come and a laptop that is great to run it.
The response been great and I hope AROS will live. I'm not a developer but I made many things happen to make AROS better. You are the only one that can make the difference.
Personaly I don't care if it runs on potatos or is called Flaminga as long as it works and feels like an Amiga. If I'm going to use a OS today it must be a nice web-browser and it must feel fast and reliable.
AROS has come a long way but is still far from perfect. MorphOS is the most advanced of the 3 alternatives but the wrong arcitecture or supported hardware is what stops me from using it.
In 2016 I don't like to use anything other than a laptop. On top of that it needs to be fast.

Last edited by nikosidis on 19-Dec-2016 at 01:43 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 19-Dec-2016 at 01:31 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 19-Dec-2016 at 01:30 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 19-Dec-2016 at 01:18 PM.

@nikosidis

+1

I think we ought to call it "Pancakes" myself, but I'm glad that since I favor MorphOS (and to a lesser extent AROS) that I don't have to worry about the naming BS.
After all, the last real version of AmigaOS was 3.1.
Everything after that is a third party development.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@nikosidis
Quote:

MorphOS is the most advanced of the 3 alternatives but the wrong arcitecture or supported hardware is what stops me from using it. In 2016 I don't like to use anything other than a laptop.

I'm not following AROS closely. Does AROS now really support laptops now? I mean, running it on a laptop vs. supporting it are two different things.

For example, MorphOS has specific support for some laptops. That includes power management (battery readings, and lowering the CPU clock when running from battery, or when the computer is idle, managing fans, etc), touch pad support including gestures and multitouch, LCD brightness settings, various laptop-specific sensors, and a few other bits.

So, does AROS support these on any laptop these days? (Just asking, because I might wanna buy, if you can point me to one.)

_________________
MorphOS, classic Amiga, demoscene, and stuff
"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

@Chain-Q

If I'm not mistaken, AROS was running on laptops before MorphOS was.

Although I'm pleased with the support MorphOS has for Apple G4 laptops.
I have a 1.42 GHz iBook, and I've purchased a couple of 1.67 Hi-res PowerBooks for friends in Europe and these are reasonably fast (even when compared to my current X64 based laptop and tablet hardware), and feature R300 derived gpus that work quite well.

Portable computing is one area where OS4 has not caught up to the rest of the NG community.

UNLESS you're going to dredge up WinUAE again, and that is a crippled solution better suited for testing whether not not you like the OS enough to invest in better hardware.

Last edited by Beans on 19-Dec-2016 at 03:41 PM.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Beans
Running? No doubt. Since x86 based laptops are still just stock x86 hardware, even if you don't support their specialities. But see above what I've said about running vs. supporting a laptop.

_________________
MorphOS, classic Amiga, demoscene, and stuff
"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

@Chain-Q

Well, I doubt they have power management enabled yet, that took awhile under MorphOS, while AROS could potentially support a wider range of platforms.
And what do you expect from an open platform?
They are one step ahead of proprietary OS4.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Chain-Q

Sadly all you said about power management etc. is not implemented but I know it's been worked on.
To me theese things are not realy that important but for some it could. To me a laptop first and foremost are about being portable.

There are many things that can be improved in AROS but in the end it is a very nice and enjoyable system now running on fast hardware.

Last edited by nikosidis on 19-Dec-2016 at 04:50 PM.

@nikosidis

A lot can change for a computer architecture in a few years. When they went for PowerPC, the architecture was alive and well. POWER is still doing very good on the server side (but that will not be any help for A-EON in the short term).

Pinning all horses on x86 might also be a big mistake. Hyperion really has no choice but to keep going with PPC, and so far this has only resulted in one overpriced CPU choice thanks to Apple spiking the PASemi CPU's price. The NXP chips don't have the same problem.

@WolfpackN64

The biggest problem with relying on NXP is that they aren't devoting anything to further development of their PPC cores, so while the existing products should be available for some time, new cpus are unlikely to be released.
And outside of PowerPC, we could consider the latest Power ISA, Power8, but that line has nothing really suited for the desktop market - its too f'ing expensive.

So, while I'll buy an X5000, I'm looking forward to a shift to X64.
I'll keep the PPC system indefinitely, but...

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Beans

Shifting OS4 from PPC towards x86 will be very difficult. You're dealing with a very un-portable OS and Hyperion already seems to be stretched keeping the OS updated.

The largest problem with POWER is that that the CPU dies are massive (and thus very expensive. Honestly, I think they have a better shot waiting for a cut-down POWER CPU then to try to port the entire thing towards x86.

I think AROS will be the clear x86 route in the future, OS4 will probably have to follow the Power ISA for now.

@WolfpackN64

Possibly, but I've been in contact with Trevor, and doesn't appear to be particularly interested in Power8 (at least not yet), and unlike Power4, which spawned desktop processors like the PowerPC, Power8 so far has been geared completely toward servers.
Also, there can be no doubt that PowerPC is dying a prolonged death.
I would like to see the proposed e6500 based laptop produced.
And I'll buy a P5040 based X5000, but long term , the outlook for this ISA remaining viable is bleak.

And while I'm not familiar with the internal structure of OS4, MorphOS does not appear to present significant hurdles in an ISA switch.
The kernel will have to be rewritten, probably with an X64 assembler.
But its a microkernel, so its is compact and relatively small.
And the rest of the code should recompile once the endian issues are addressed.
Its not that impossible an option.

Last edited by Beans on 19-Dec-2016 at 06:53 PM.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Beans

Funny that you mention it, I help as a translator for the laptop project :)
PowerPC itself is dying, that's for sure. But OpenPOWER has many partners, since embedded Power CPU's are still often used for military applications, it's not said no-one will ever produce one again and the POWER ISA will probably live on since IBM is putting all it's weight behind it.

If I'm not mistaken, MorphOS' kernel works a bit differently than both Exec and ExecSG. It might have been developed with more portability in mind.

@WolfpackN64

Yes, MorphOS' kernel is quite a bit different, and while I'm not sure that portability was one of the intentions, it's size and structure will make it easier.

And I look forward to working with you guys on the laptop project, I've already submitted some info on things I think I could help with.

I'm hoping that one of the smaller Power8/9 consortium members (possibly one of the Chinese companies) will try to adapt the ISA to other applications.
I just wrote off Raptor Engineering's Raptor project, the price has progressively grown, and apparently they have been working without IBM's knowledge or assistance (which is just plain stupid).
Also, their pricing for full systems (about $18K) is pretty much in line with what Tyan commands for their hardware (which is way too far away from what could be commanded in the desktop market).

As to the remaining uses of PowerPC, IBM still promotes the 470 for embedded application, but NXP is focused on ARM cpus, and Applied Micro is probably going to be liquidated (and beyond that would probably have refocused on ARM as well).

So unless IBM or one of its Power consortium partners decides to broaden the applications for Power8/9...

In any case, I'll have my (possibly) last PPC system, hopefully we can do something with the laptop project, and there is always an outside possibility that the Power ISA may migrate downward.

BUT, I also ready to move to X64, and will be keeping my eye on AMD's gpu developments and their cpu developments like Zen and the Ryzen processor.

Last edited by Beans on 19-Dec-2016 at 07:44 PM.

_________________
Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Beans
Quote:

MorphOS does not appear to present significant hurdles in an ISA switch.

An ISA switch is always bigger hurdle to users than developers. The compiler will hide most of the details. Even if you have larger chunks of assembly in your source, you can just hack together something quickly so you can proceed further and then return later to implement it properly, after the whole system is up. My personal guess is to boot to Workbench or Ambient in any other ISA than PPC is not further away than a few man-weeks of work. Of course, without polishing or bugfixing, or making it anywhere near release-ready. But even this is only true if you can ignore backwards compatibility. Doing the ISA switch and keeping binary-only userland software working - that's the harder part. (AROS has this Janus-thing, IIRC, but last time I tried it wasn't too convincing. Too many rough edges.)
Quote:

The kernel will have to be rewritten, probably with an X64 assembler.

Hopefully, probably not. No one should write kernels in assembly in 2016.

_________________
MorphOS, classic Amiga, demoscene, and stuff
"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)