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bison 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 24-Dec-2016 18:32:28
#21 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 822
From: N-Space

@kolla

Quote:
Where is OpenWRT? Where is OpenEmbedded?

I am not familiar with these. If you are, perhaps you could run free -m on them and post the results for comparison.

Quote:
WherAll those distros you list are for x86 systems that typically have plenty of RAM, so they do not focus on low memory footprint.

Tiny Core does in fact focus on a low memory footprint, as do Raspbian and Lubuntu to a lesser extent. The others do not, but ... that is beside the point. A few posts up you said:

Quote:
Linux is as bloated as you make it.

These results demonstrate that this is true.

Last edited by bison on 24-Dec-2016 at 06:33 PM.

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kolla 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 24-Dec-2016 22:31:53
#22 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 606
From: Trondheim, Norway

@bison

For example...

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Beans 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 25-Dec-2016 4:08:52
#23 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 251
From: Bear Delaware USA

@bison

Quote:
...this is true


And...its still pretty bloated, when its as boated as you make it.
I think I must have been jaded by operating systems you could place entirely on one floppy, because an OS that would require multiples of those JUST to hold the kernel still seems ridiculous.

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bison 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 25-Dec-2016 5:32:09
#24 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 822
From: N-Space

@kolla

I'm not sure how to interpret those numbers; the -m switch doesn't seem to be working. If that is Kb, then those are indeed very low memory usage numbers.

Update: I tested Tiny Core without an X Server, and it uses about 40 Mb RAM. Not as low as OpenWRT, but still pretty good. One thing is certain: whatever is causing Fedora 25 to use 526 Mb RAM, it's not the Linux kernel.

Last edited by bison on 25-Dec-2016 at 05:46 AM.

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kolla 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 25-Dec-2016 12:46:30
#25 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 606
From: Trondheim, Norway

@bison

This is busybox free, so in deed the -m is ignored, and it shows kilobytes.

OpenWRT is defacto standard distro for everything routers, wifi controllers etc. based on Linux. Right now I am on holidays, but at home I have systems, commercial products, with only 16MB of RAM running Linux. One thing that typically eats quite a lot of RAM is glibc, since it most often is buildt to support a whole range of ABIs. The are however many other libcs to pick from, like uclibc, musl libc, the openbsd libc (which Android uses btw), but they often require that you build everything against just them, not providing the multiple levels of compatibility that glibc provides.

Last edited by kolla on 25-Dec-2016 at 12:50 PM.

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kolla 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 25-Dec-2016 12:54:32
#26 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 606
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Beans

How about AmigaOS? It has 512KB in ROM before you even insert a floppy, and just workbench.library is like 130KB now, it quickly builds up to more than a floppy, and you won't even be able to set up a software RAID or get online :)

Last edited by kolla on 25-Dec-2016 at 12:54 PM.

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bison 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 29-Dec-2016 16:38:33
#27 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 822
From: N-Space

@Beans

Since you seem to be interested in small micro-kernel based operating systems, perhaps you should give Minix 3 a spin. It's been a while since I lasted tried it, but it was interesting, if not particularly useful, do to a lack of application software. They've since ported Net-BSD userland, so maybe it's more useful now.

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kolla 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 29-Dec-2016 20:30:52
#28 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 606
From: Trondheim, Norway

And there is always Hurd :)

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Raffaele 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 30-Dec-2016 10:58:20
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1722
From: Naples, Italy

@ne_one

Quote:

ne_one wrote:
Recently there has been a fair bit of discussion about various Un*x derivatives and how they intersect with potential next generation Amiga platforms.

But, despite the pedigree and involvement of noted Amiga developer Matt Dillon, Dragonfly BSD is rarely mentioned.



Do anyone ever considered BeOS-Haiku pure Microkernel and tried analyzing how many memory it consumes as minimal requirements and/or after loading major drivers requested by a standard desktop machine as of today standards? (Remember that in BeOS drivers are quite normal drivers loaded at necessity request, as it happens in Amigaland, as microkernels do not bloat themselves incorporating drivers in their core kernel)

Last edited by Raffaele on 30-Dec-2016 at 11:01 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 30-Dec-2016 at 10:59 AM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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bison 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 12-Jan-2017 16:07:54
#30 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 822
From: N-Space

@kolla

Quote:
One thing that typically eats quite a lot of RAM is glibc, since it most often is buildt to support a whole range of ABIs. The are however many other libcs to pick from, like uclibc, musl libc, the openbsd libc (which Android uses btw), but they often require that you build everything against just them, not providing the multiple levels of compatibility that glibc provides.

Well, in the spirit of inquiry I downloaded two versions of Void Linux, one with glibc and the other with musl libc. They are otherwise identical, as far as I know. They both use lxqt.

The glibc version uses ~165 Mb RAM on a cold boot, while the musl libc version uses ~140 Mb.

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kolla 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 12-Jan-2017 21:44:00
#31 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 606
From: Trondheim, Norway

@bison

Put up a vhost with virtual box or whatever, and see how low you can go. UNIX like systems enjoy using RAM if it is available, for all kinds of cache. Also, disable tmpfs such as /dev and /tmp, and keep them on disk instead, and mount file systems sync to make it similar to Amiga :)

And oh - Qt, there goes your RAM, lol :) When it comes to userland, compilation flags also matter, you can optimise for speed, or you can optimise for size, for example. If the system has very slow I/O, optimising for size can also increase all over performance.

Last edited by kolla on 13-Jan-2017 at 02:59 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 12-Jan-2017 at 09:48 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 12-Jan-2017 at 09:46 PM.

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Beans 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 13-Jan-2017 12:20:09
#32 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 251
From: Bear Delaware USA

@bison

Sorry for the delay in responding.
I don't think Dr. Tanenbaum ever intended Minix to be anything but a teaching tool about OS construction.
But there are functional microkernel OS'.
As I have mentioned before, MorphOS is one, and I guess I'll have to take a look at Haiku since my friends keep mentioning it.

However, when I started using microkernel based operating systems ram was expensive and address space was limited.
These days ram is cheap and cpus have an absurd address range.
So some of my concerns are no longer that important.
OS reliability and kernel protection are still valid reasons to promote this type of structure.

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bison 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 15-Jan-2017 1:14:04
#33 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 822
From: N-Space

@kolla

Quote:
And oh - Qt, there goes your RAM, lol :)

Yes, using something like twm instead of lxqt would probably cut memory usage in half. Of course then I' be stuck using twm.

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bison 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 15-Jan-2017 1:22:06
#34 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 822
From: N-Space

@Beans

Quote:
Sorry for the delay in responding.

There's no hurry over here.

Quote:
I don't think Dr. Tanenbaum ever intended Minix to be anything but a teaching tool about OS construction.

That was the case for many years, but with MINIX 3 the goals have been expanded to create a fault-tolerant system for embedded use, while still keeping it simple enough for educational use. It uses a "reincarnation server" that pings device drivers, and if one of them falls over it restarts it without restarting the entire system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX_3

http://www.minix3.org/docs/jorrit-herder/asci06.pdf

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Beans 
Re: DragonFly BSD
Posted on 15-Jan-2017 16:05:26
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 251
From: Bear Delaware USA

@bison

Thanks, I will take a look at it.

A link to www.minix3.org would have been useful.

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