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      /  Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
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Leo 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 9-Jan-2017 15:56:05
#41 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1558
From: Unknown

@Hypex: Yes, VGA does 640x480x16c, I was reacting to this:

Quote:

It says that Mac had 640x480 in 256 colours; VGA standard it sounds.

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Raffaele 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 10-Jan-2017 12:41:00
#42 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1797
From: Naples, Italy

@Hypex

To answer you the first question it is all related to the fact Macintoshes handle all pixels perfectly square on their monitors and on dedicated monitors while best part of Amiga resolutions present rectangular pixels to better match television standards. Only 640*512 on Amiga presents square pixels and it was unusable at those times as it was flickering (not by Amiga fault, but it was TV CRT dependant)...
Macintosh had also best drivers not only for common printers but also for Laser and Linotypes.

Fact that Mac has perfect pixels, and best drivers made Apple machine since the beginning the best choice for magazines, newspapers and typographers and fit their photo retouching needing...

Any further speculations I read on this thread is nonsense, ignorance or nostalgia.

We lost powerful niche professional printing market that made Macintosh survive, as long as Commodore was not enough quick releasing AGA on A3000 and AAA on A1200 and A4000 that featured plenty of square pixels resolutions.

Amiga had also 1024*768 in 16 colors and 640*480 x 256 colors from 24 bit palette since 1989 with Graphic Card from Texas Instruments chip made at Lowell University equipping A2500 Amix Unix machines but it was never released AmigaOS driver for this card neither this card was sold on the market separately from Amix A2500.

Too much occasions we lost on Amiga!!!!!

This fact gave enormous difference as competitors profitted greatly upon Amiga faults. Sad but true.

@Others

Yes Photoshop is a pain in the ass for drawing, and it is almost unusable in general, but it has the best powerful colors, levels, and light handling I ever seen on any photo retouching software, it is perfectly integrated with professional printers drivers so in the end, that makes it perfect choice for typography purposes.
It becames de facto standard for drawing only in recent times so lots of features for drawing are really, really recent and they are an ugly mess to deal with.

@Deluxe Paint lovers

Yes Deluxe Paint featuring layers, color levels and some other minor features it had been became the best paint program ever existed.

If you want to try a perfect Windows clone of DP on steroids (including key shortcuts), just download free version of PD Pro (former Project Dogwaffle)...

You can download elder 1.2 version or newer 8.5 version for free.

It handles even direct cutted brushes (even if only rectangular if I remember well) but if you joke a little refining contour areas of brush and experimenting a lot with transparencies of background and on/off colors of background of the brush, you can make almost perfect blob-like brushes as in Amiga...

Last edited by Raffaele on 10-Jan-2017 at 12:45 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 10-Jan-2017 14:35:32
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8693
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Raffaele

Yes it is true Amiga was made for TV. Perhaps that was the downfall. As a home computer it was expensive but you shouldn't plug an expensive computer into a TV! Which I did. The portable TV in my room.

Perhaps the Amiga needed to come as a complete unit with monitor. Either AIO case package or all in the box.

Interlace was a problem but I think AmigaOS could have had anti-alias or softening routines to dampen the effect. The problem was that TVs were made for real images where you didn't notice the flicker but the Amiga GUI was a fake image that showed the flaws. Of course what it needed at the start was a VGA like scan rate monitor to display as progressive.

It did get us into the video market for a short while.

I think AGA was too close to ECS in some areas and in other areas not far away enough but that's another story.

The Amix sounnds interesting. A real amix.

It's a shame Commodore didn't bring the Amiga chipset up to that point. Perhaps the first Amiga graphic card was a sign that the hardware was being left behind. I take it that chipset was chunky? Amiga really needed progressive chunky modes for the pro market.

A few people think the Amiga chipset should have been dumped in favor of VGA or simple chunky CLUT instead of AGA. But this would have been a step back as well, with no copper and reduced on screen colours. As an add on yes but not replacement.

When I see information like you provided on the TMS34010 I wonder if the Amiga was actually revolutionary at all. I mean that device came out in '86 and already provided a 256 palette of 24-bit. Not only that but a GPU that puts the copper and blitter to shame working like an actual CPU. Except for the copper raster effects.

Last edited by Hypex on 10-Jan-2017 at 02:41 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 10-Jan-2017 15:13:56
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5086
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Amiga was in the late days to expensive. I remember buying A4000/30 with if I remember right 4 MB RAM, graphic card and muiltiscan monitor for 2000 DM (1993 or 1994 cannot remember) but for that money you already got a similar or even better equipped PC with much more software. And for professional use there were alternatives like Mac. I think Commodore never knew what to do with Amiga.

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BigD 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 10-Jan-2017 16:21:38
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4116
From: UK

@Hypex

Quote:

When I see information like you provided on the TMS34010 I wonder if the Amiga was actually revolutionary at all. I mean that device came out in '86 and already provided a 256 palette of 24-bit. Not only that but a GPU that puts the copper and blitter to shame working like an actual CPU. Except for the copper raster effects.


TMS34010 What an awesome chip for 1985/86! Stuff 'Ranger' graphics we needed one of these added to the ECS/AGA machines!

It was used in these Amiga boards the first of which was used for Virtual Reality systems!

Amiga Rambrandt Board

Amiga Report review of A2410 Tiga Graphics Board

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 10-Jan-2017 17:29:33
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10707
From: Norway

@Hypex

Quote:
A few people think the Amiga chipset should have been dumped in favor of VGA or simple chunky CLUT instead of AGA. But this would have been a step back as well, with no copper and reduced on screen colours. As an add on yes but not replacement.


I think be possible to combine copper with chunky.
Cooper only changes the color / palate at a given position.

If an 8 bit color value is stored in 8 bytes of 1 bit (AGA), or if the 8 bit color are located in 1 byte of 8bits (VGA). Should make a lot difference.

Nevertheless, who cares now days when we have Pixel shades and gaga bytes of ram on graphics cards?

8 bit graphics looks like a old news paper, compared to ARGB graphics.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jan-2017 at 07:35 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jan-2017 at 05:36 PM.

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m0lebrain 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 10-Jan-2017 17:37:27
#47 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Apr-2004
Posts: 340
From: South Western PA

@Hypex

Amiga was focusing on desktop video production (amiga vision, video toaster, etc...) which it had done quite well, considering the hardware specs.

Early 90s in college, I used my Amiga 1200 to make my images, and then i would go over to a Mac Performa to add some photoshop flair...

If any of you are interested (though I've shared this before), here is a link to what i was working on in early 90s. Still cracks me up that my stuff is still there. HEHE

http://aminet.net/package/pix/misc/samauriAGA

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TheDungeonDelver 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 10-Jan-2017 18:07:05
#48 ]
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Joined: 17-Apr-2004
Posts: 812
From: Unknown

I have a question that is sort of parallel to this conversation: does anyone here know the USD cost of an A2500, back in '87, when the 2000 series was released?

A Macintosh II, with color display, cost around $5k ($11k today, with inflation). I'm just curious what the price point for a similarly specced 2000 (020, 2mb RAM, 20mb HD) ran.


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Hypex 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 12-Jan-2017 15:02:12
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8693
From: Greensborough, Australia

@OlafS25

It's true. What was barely more than a bigbox A1200 was almost four times the A1200 price for a so called professional machine that lacked full 24-bit graphics or even 16-bit audio. Over here it really was the Amiga A$4000.

Last edited by Hypex on 12-Jan-2017 at 03:02 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 12-Jan-2017 15:17:08
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8693
From: Greensborough, Australia

@BigD

Quote:
What an awesome chip for 1985/86! Stuff 'Ranger' graphics we needed one of these added to the ECS/AGA machines


I know right!

Third time I'm shocked today.

That review only concentrate on 256 colours. No mention on 24-bit screen modes. Could the software even use it to it's potential?

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Hypex 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 12-Jan-2017 15:29:15
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8693
From: Greensborough, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I think be possible to combine copper with chunky.


I agree. ECS would have been better if it was something like a TMS34010 added to the chips and controlled by the copper. Including being able drag screens down.

By the time AGA should have been here being tied to a third party chip might not have been a good idea. So they really needed to have this functionality inside the chipset. Although I wonder if the lowly CPUs Commodore put in the Amigas could have handled a 24-bit framebuffer.

But it's amazing to think how soon the Amiga fell behind when 24-bit technology was already available soon after it's release. We like to think of the Amiga chipset as being a great revolution but chips like these make the Amiga revolution look small by comparison that somehow captured the public with smoke and mirrors to dazzle them.

Quote:
Nevertheless, who cares now days when we have Pixel shades and gaga bytes of ram on graphics cards


Well now it doesn't matter anymore. Except on modern Amiga accelerators that include a custom SuperAGA chipset. But it mattered back then. Amiga should have won the 24-bit race but it already lost before it entered the starting line.

Another shocker.

Last edited by Hypex on 12-Jan-2017 at 03:35 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 12-Jan-2017 15:31:02
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8693
From: Greensborough, Australia

@m0lebrain

Does that explain the hires NTSC 24-bit mode? Those blue eyes are bulging. And your sword flash hurts my eyes.

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m0lebrain 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 12-Jan-2017 17:24:18
#53 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Apr-2004
Posts: 340
From: South Western PA

@Hypex

hey, be nice to my newly found 24 bits and lens flares! HEHE

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Rob 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 12-Jan-2017 18:45:06
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5578
From: S.Wales

@TheDungeonDelver

Quote:
I have a question that is sort of parallel to this conversation: does anyone here know the USD cost of an A2500, back in '87, when the 2000 series was released?

A Macintosh II, with color display, cost around $5k ($11k today, with inflation). I'm just curious what the price point for a similarly specced 2000 (020, 2mb RAM, 20mb HD) ran.


Doesn't seem like the A2500 was released until 1988.

I have a copy of Amiga Format that celebrated 10 years of Amiga and had loads of info about the past. According to that an A2620 cost £2000 but the US price may have been considerably lower and there would have been a saving associated with buying it as part of a complete system.

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kolla 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 12-Jan-2017 22:28:33
#55 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 688
From: Trondheim, Norway

I am really just here to mention Paintshop Pro, it was that one program on that weirdo operating system that I could be somewhat creative in. I wish PPaint could flat out steal the animation feautures of Deluxe Paint as well, the "Move Box" was brilliantly intuitive and easy to use, so I still use it. And make it possible to move the "toolbox" to the right edge of the screen please (maybe it is?) Was PPaint made with a left handed user in mind, or was that decided just to be different from DPaint, I wonder. Btw, let us not forget Brilliance, TV-paint, XiPaint, DigiPaint, OpalPaint etc the list of paint programs for Amiga was quite impressive for the time :)

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Hypex 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 13-Jan-2017 11:04:27
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8693
From: Greensborough, Australia

@kolla

I think what would have helped is not the toolbox in any position but off screen to one edge and brought into view by pushing the mouse on that edge to which it would slide into view. Then you could click what you want and when the mouser moved away so did the toolbox.

I found any toolbox over the screen obstructed the view and got in the way of my editing. A least it could be hidden.

I liked the way MS Paint worked by scaling the image to fit the edit area which I thought was neat even it did distort the image and require close up editing for exact precision.

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Seiya 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 13-Jan-2017 12:16:48
#57 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2006
Posts: 1373
From: Italia

on Amiga there are some big software that could be compared with Photoshop.
A part ImageFX and Photogenics i don't remember other similar titles, but i'm sure there are

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 13-Jan-2017 16:45:15
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10707
From: Norway

@Seiya

ImageFX is more a FX program, pretty tiny compared to PhotoShop.
TVPaint is was a really good photo editing / true color image editing program at one time.

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Hypex 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 14-Jan-2017 11:51:14
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8693
From: Greensborough, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Comparing ImageFX with PhotoShop, would that be from the same time period? Either way would be understandable.

Last edited by Hypex on 14-Jan-2017 at 11:52 AM.

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mike 
Re: Photoshop on the Amiga: What happened?
Posted on 18-Jan-2017 21:19:01
#60 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2007
Posts: 406
From: Alpha Centauri

@Hypex
You got your wish it seems. Now get to work! I wanna see an Amiga version before the the end of the day!

http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/adobe-photoshop-source-code/


Some interesting history:

"Display was the name of the image-editing program developed by John and Thomas Knoll, before they renamed it Photoshop in 1988. This is the original disk containing Display."
https://www.facebook.com/computerhistory/photos/a.391737715815.176843.132738745815/10154954834880816/?type=3

"That first version of Photoshop was written primarily in Pascal for the Apple Macintosh, with some machine language for the underlying Motorola 68000 microprocessor where execution efficiency was important. It wasn’t the effort of a huge team. Thomas said, “For version 1, I was the only engineer, and for version 2, we had two engineers.” While Thomas worked on the base application program, John wrote many of the image-processing plug-ins."

Last edited by mike on 18-Jan-2017 at 09:23 PM.

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