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g01df1sh 
Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 2-Feb-2017 21:17:29
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1777
From: UK

Hi all

Apple is doing things the amiga way with custom chips. Only taken them 15-20 years lol

https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/01/apple-custom-arm-chip-for-future-macs/

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BigD 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 3-Feb-2017 0:23:52
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@g01df1sh

Quote:
Apple is doing things the amiga way with custom chips. Only taken them 15-20 years lol


So it's an Arm chip to power the touch bar on MacBook Pros in the short term and a battery saving 'power nap' mode in the medium term? To have any sort of masses not the classes discrete GPU in a MacBook Pro would be more reminiscent of the Amiga. The fact that you can play Doom on the touch bar doesn't count as major innovation (although it's funny as hell )

Doom on a MacBook Pro touch bar

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asymetrix 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 3-Feb-2017 2:09:47
#3 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 868
From: United Kingdom

@thread

There are a few Amiga niceties that are being recognized :

AMD hardware access to GPU hitting the metal - GPUOpen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0oBFeFUG4w

DemoCoding & 256 colour palette cycling animation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcJ1Jvtef0 8 Bit & '8 Bitish' Graphics-Outside the Box

http://www.effectgames.com/demos/canvascycle/

Amiga could have created optimized animation formats, effects and palette cycling drawing and gradients in GUI.

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agami 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 3-Feb-2017 5:25:43
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@g01df1sh

I was going to pretty much post the exact same observation. I can see them adding more and more custom silicon in order to differentiate themselves. That's what I would to if I had chip designers on the payroll.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 8:38:48
#5 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1204
From: Unknown

@BigD

The chips Apple has used for a couple of years now in iPhone and iPad is very similar to Intel Core i7 in design and has delivered desktop performance for a very long time now, if you by "desktop performance" mean the couple of years old machines most people are using. But this on a battery powered, passively cooled environment like a phone. I am perfectly convinced that Apple, if they wanted, could easily and rapidly make a proper desktop/laptop CPU out of their ARM design, to run actively cooled at high frequencies. They probably have this in some lab already for evaluation.

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Hypex 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 9:08:41
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@TRIPOS

Yes. They call it it iPad.

Perhaps in future that will become a DeskPad or LapPad. Or even NotePad. A lot of people have given up on conventional computers and just use an iPad. Yes Samsung and other brands produce pads but I've hardly seen a non-iPad the last few years.

I couldn't do it. A computer you can't download an OS ISO on to write to USB or CD to fix a broken notebook is useless in my experience. But somehow Apple have made such a computer popular. Does anyone do anything on computers these days except browse and open apps? It can't even play DVDs.

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Amigo1 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 12:09:11
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1582
From: the Clouds

@asymetrix

Can PPaint do colorcycling or was it only DPaints ability?

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TRIPOS 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 12:25:34
#8 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1204
From: Unknown

@Hypex

My point was that Apple's ARM designs has been desktop class for years already, though obviously underclocked to be used in passively cooled, battery powered handheld devices.

The chips could most certainly be used in laptops and desktops instead of Intel's, if only such a political decision would be made. (Looking back in history, I'd say enough time has passed since the latest platform migration, maybe time for another soon? )


Quote:
It can't even play DVDs.


OMG! Did you just make a reference to an... optical media?

Well, sometimes I forget this is a retro forum...

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BigD 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 12:50:57
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@TRIPOS

Quote:
OMG! Did you just make a reference to an... optical media?


Apple dropped the ball on their dealing with optical media. My last workplace needed an external Blu-Ray burner for the Macs to archive video and free up harddrive/server space. If you watch any design company on The Apprentice they have extrernal optical drives and I've upgraded my MacBook Pro Superdrive with a Panasonic Blu-Ray burner for backup, films and home movie burning. The Cloud and YouTube are not suitable for ALL video/file storage especially after all the hacking incidence that have been occuring!

Why buy a new MacBook Pro with less ports, no Blu-Ray, no removable battery, no MagSafe? For a Touch Bar and £300 more for the privilege? Get lost Apple, if a Blu-Ray drive is useful for customers then offer it as an option or lose the customers!

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TRIPOS 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 14:40:30
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1204
From: Unknown

@BigD



Apple didn't "drop the ball" on anything, virtually no-one is using optical media today, that's why pretty much everyone (not just Apple) stopped selling machines with it! It's like Floppies! Dead (and rightly so)! So do yourself a favor and get yourself a nice NAS for your archives, it's cheaper, safer, so much faster and soooo much more convenient. It's probably better for the environment as well!

You can't expect computer manufacturers to generally include things not needed nor wanted by customers, just because you want it, you understand that, right? If you persist in using optical media, then having an external one is a perfect compromise. I see no problem whatsoever in that, and frankly I don't understand your complaints.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 14:40:39
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1204
From: Unknown

@BigD



Apple didn't "drop the ball" on anything, virtually no-one is using optical media today, that's why pretty much everyone (not just Apple) stopped selling machines with it! It's like Floppies! Dead (and rightly so)! So do yourself a favor and get yourself a nice NAS for your archives, it's cheaper, safer, so much faster and soooo much more convenient. It's probably better for the environment as well!

You can't expect computer manufacturers to generally include things not needed nor wanted by customers, just because you want it, you understand that, right? If you persist in using optical media, then having an external one is a perfect compromise. I see no problem whatsoever in that, and frankly I don't understand your complaints.

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Hypex 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 14:59:54
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Amigo1

It can do animation so it should be able to. It was like an OS friendly clone of DPaint. Well it was similar anyway and works on OS4.

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Leo 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 15:02:17
#13 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

Can PPaint do colorcycling or was it only DPaints ability?

Color cycling is specific to palette (= 8bit/-) video modes, it is not specific to deluxe paint (or the Amiga).

Last edited by Leo on 07-Feb-2017 at 03:52 PM.

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Leo 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 15:07:56
#14 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

PC (& Macs) have been doing things the Amiga way for years.

Since DirectX most graphic operations are offloaded on the graphics card.

Even user interfaces are now entirely handled by the GPU.

Now they are offloading things on ARM cores to reduce battery usage & avoid waking up x86 cores: that's what they do with the T1 chip that powers the touchbar, and they are planning to go even further with new chips that may access the main RAM.

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Hypex 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 15:11:54
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@TRIPOS

Quote:
My point was that Apple's ARM designs has been desktop class for years already, though obviously underclocked to be used in passively cooled, battery powered handheld devices.


I've heard of 8 core 2Ghz ARM CPUs. So does that mean they could do 4Ghz?

And it was said PPC was stuck on the 500Mhz ceiling. Intel have been stuck on 4GHz for years. When are they going to surpass it with real Ghz?

Quote:
The chips could most certainly be used in laptops and desktops instead of Intel's, if only such a political decision would be made.


A friend brought this up some time back. Two of their major devices already use customised ARM. And this places control back in their hands to an extent.

But they are already established on Intel as it stands. They would need to dump all this (again) to support a new CPU. Include an emulator and add another CPU to the uniiversal binary format. Then a few years later dump the emulator.

iOS already run on ARM so would they then migrate OSX to iOS? Then dump OSX? OR create an iOSX?

Quote:
OMG! Did you just make a reference to an... optical media? )


Yeah but.. no but.. yeah but... And then Vicki tried to stick this DVD in her iPad and it wouldn't work then she tried a Blu Ray and hooking it up to the HD TV and then...

(Loose refererence to Little Britian. )

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Amigo1 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 19:36:54
#16 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1582
From: the Clouds

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

Can PPaint do colorcycling or was it only DPaints ability?

Color cycling is specific to palette 8bit video modes, it is not specific to deluxe paint (or the Amiga).


Yes but does PPaint have the functions to do that? I remember DPaint had a menu to where you can set the range for the cycling and so on, I was not able to find it in PPaint. But maybe it's just me not knowing how to use the App. Is someone using PPaint and knows how to do color cycling there?

Last edited by Amigo1 on 06-Feb-2017 at 07:38 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 6-Feb-2017 20:04:46
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@TRIPOS

Quote:
You can't expect computer manufacturers to generally include things not needed nor wanted by customers, just because you want it, you understand that, right? If you persist in using optical media, then having an external one is a perfect compromise. I see no problem whatsoever in that, and frankly I don't understand your complaints.


They did drop the ball in the sense they've increased their prices for less features and less ergonomic solutions. They pride theselves on sleek form factor over specification with thin machines with rubbish GPUs. If you try and actually 'do' anything creative with a Mac involving burning or syncing or actually using a USB-C port, your desk or lap is quickly a mess of dongles external devices and is just a 'mess'! Apple suck and they've sucked since Jobs passed away. Yes he hated Blu-Ray too but at least users like myself could remove the Superdrive and add one ourselves. Therefore, my 'obsolete' Mac laptop is neat, has lots of ports, no dongles, a removable battery to save the machine from a water spill, a Magsafe to save the machine from trips and an internal Blu-Ray burner. Why would I trade it in for an 'upgraded' laptop with less features but with a mm less aluminium shaved off the bottom?

As I previously demonstrated these features are wanted as my previous work place needed a burner, I need a burner, video editors most probably need a burner and external optical drives look apalling and mess up the sleek asethetic that Apple products are supposed to be about. If I want to archive multiple DVD images I'll put them on a Blu-Ray, if I want to give some home video to a family member I'll send them a DVD. The internet is too slow/insecure for such things and NAS is overkill for archiving multi GB ISO images.

They have dropped the ball because they lost me as a customer and my old workplace are unlikely to buy Macs again because they messed up Final Cut Pro too. Everyone creative in video will be using PCs with Adobe Premiere and there is no reason to own a 'touch bar' MacBook Pro unless you want to impress people in Star Bucks! Apple suck and they've never been more about style over substance than they are right now. if Mac sales become insignificant compared to iPhones and iPads (and they probably already are) then it's their own fault because their new 'Pro' machines are not fit for purpose! I expect Mac machines to become casual web browsing machines and nothing more. You can shove your car hire/Uber/bad mobile games/Hive Smart Thermostat/Smart Phone apps where the sun don't shine and get back to making a creative computer please Apple.

A custom ARM chip to improve the sleep mode battery life isn't going to change my mind

Last edited by BigD on 06-Feb-2017 at 08:19 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 06-Feb-2017 at 08:16 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 06-Feb-2017 at 08:10 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 7-Feb-2017 2:53:34
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@TRIPOS

Also.

Quote:
Apple didn't "drop the ball" on anything, virtually no-one is using optical media today, that's why pretty much everyone (not just Apple) stopped selling machines with it!


They still sell DVDs in shops even though Bluray should have made them obsolete. And a modern PC would have a BLu ray drive. As well as USB ports.

So a movie buff wants to play a movie on his new Mac. "No that won't work. It doesn't have a drive. It's like an Amiga, You can't play those movies on it."

They still sell CDs. They should have been replaced by SACD. But instead inferior mp3s and iTunes took over. Not because they are superior to CD (which is dated quality against studio quality), and probably not because physical items take up space, but because every one is a bunch of pirates and thinks of internet files as free.

But a main problem that doesn't go away is backups. Mechanical drives cannot be trusted. And I would trust SSD drives less. Optical media lasts well in storage. Cloud storage, on whatever medium it uses, is likely only run at an average USB2 transfer speed on the fastest expensive internet.

A friend in my club thinks tape backups are the way to go. Best solution but don't compress your files. Yeah, can't buy that at your local compuiter shop. So that's as useless as a computer you can't plug a drive into.

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Massi 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 7-Feb-2017 14:43:59
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 627
From: Rome, Italy

@All

I guess many engineers started at Apple sooner or later after Commodore Amiga, not a big surprise.

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WolfpackN64 
Re: Apple doing things the amiga way
Posted on 7-Feb-2017 23:25:54
#20 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Oct-2016
Posts: 300
From: Unknown

@g01df1sh

The Apple IIGS had a costum made graphics chip in 1986, so technically, it only took them one year to do something similar.

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