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      /  PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
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wawa 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 20-Apr-2017 13:43:30
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5726
From: Unknown

@billt

Quote:
I want modern, highg end capability, 68k doesnt offer that.


68k offers legacy, x86/64 offers up to date performance, ppc doesnt offer any of both..

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billt 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 20-Apr-2017 14:10:16
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3023
From: Maryland, USA

@wawa

Quote:

68k offers legacy, x86/64 offers up to date performance, ppc doesnt offer any of both.


OS4 runs on neither 68k nor x64... For the time being, neither 68k nor x84 offer anything modern or advanced for AmigaOS. 68k isn't modern of course, and x86 is simply irrelevant for now.

I do run 68k stuff on ppc...

I also run ppc stuff on ppc...

Last edited by billt on 20-Apr-2017 at 02:27 PM.

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wawa 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 20-Apr-2017 15:04:06
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5726
From: Unknown

@billt

Quote:
OS4 runs on neither 68k nor x64


an os is only as relevant as software it runs. if there is no unique software to speak of there is no reason to buy any expensive dedicated hardware. except you have fetish to run that just for the sake of it, but then it is rather irrenlevant how advanced or performant it is, as this serves no practical purpose anyway. genuine amiga wins here hands down. it runs amiga os and its unique applications all fine.

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billt 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 20-Apr-2017 18:47:12
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3023
From: Maryland, USA

@wawa

If you don't want to run OS4 or OS4 software, or do development thereof, then it's irrelevant.

I personally do not agree that OS4 or its platforms are irrelevant for me. To each his own.

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Amigo1 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 20-Apr-2017 18:56:21
#65 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1388
From: Cork Ireland

@billt

Quote:

billt wrote:
@wawa

If you don't want to run OS4 or OS4 software, or do development thereof, then it's irrelevant.

I personally do not agree that OS4 or its platforms are irrelevant for me. To each his own.


with a slightly different wording I was going to write the same.

I like AmigaOS 4.x much more than OS3.x . To each his own.

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tlosm 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 21-Apr-2017 0:24:01
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@billt

15w for core probably

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billt 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 21-Apr-2017 15:07:56
#67 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3023
From: Maryland, USA

@tlosm

Quote:
15w for core probably


Remember that the t4240 Dome microserver is said to run 27W 1V core voltage with all 12 cores loaded.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39203&forum=33&start=120&viewmode=flat&order=0#754410

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tlosm 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 21-Apr-2017 16:44:07
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@billt

can be, but what make me thinking is can a e6500 make less hot than a e5500? because the e5500 need a big fan on it for stay fresh when all cores are working.

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Hammer 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 21-Apr-2017 18:55:29
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@billt

Quote:

billt wrote:
@wawa

Quote:

68k offers legacy, x86/64 offers up to date performance, ppc doesnt offer any of both.


OS4 runs on neither 68k nor x64... For the time being, neither 68k nor x84 offer anything modern or advanced for AmigaOS. 68k isn't modern of course, and x86 is simply irrelevant for now.

I do run 68k stuff on ppc...

I also run ppc stuff on ppc...

I do run 68K and PPC with Amiga Forever/WinUAE + AOS4 PowerPC on Intel Core i7-4790K at 4.5 Ghz.

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billt 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 21-Apr-2017 19:08:45
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3023
From: Maryland, USA

@tlosm


http://www.nxp.com/assets/documents/data/en/brochures/P2P3P5APPBRF.pdf
Quote:
Manufactured in 45 nm process technology, the P5040, P5021, P5020 and P5010 devices...

Quote:
With frequencies scaling to 2.4 GHz, the P5040 delivers an impressive 28,800 DMIPs in 25 watts typical power.


The very worst case TDP I've found for t4240 watts (cores + logic) is 55W. That would fit into a performance laptop, like some gaming laptops have hotter CPUs than that.
http://www.nxp.com/files-static/training_pdf/FTF/2012/americas/WBNR_FTF12_NET_F0027.pdf


http://events.fortiss.org/fileadmin/uploads/events/James_Freescale_QorIQ_Aerospace_Defense_20151013.pdf
T4240 Details
Typical Power 28-36W
(That ain't bad...)


http://www.nxp.com/assets/documents/data/en/product-briefs/T2080PB.pdf
Quote:
A top-speed bin T4240 dissipates approximately 2x the power dissipation of the P4080; however, the T4240 increases computing performance by ~4x, yielding a 2x improvement in DMIPs per watt.

And if one used a t4240 in a laptop, there's a lot of peripherals/logic that likely won't get used. And can cut back on cores used per CPU demand at the time, or drop to t4160 or t4080.


https://www.nxp.com/webapp/Download?colCode=T2080&Parent_nodeId=1339184091400722256375&Parent_pageType=product&Parent_nodeId=1339184091400722256375&Parent_pageType=product
Each e6500 core at 1.8GHz is about 1 watt

https://www.nxp.com/webapp/Download?colCode=P5040&Parent_nodeId=1335211155430699170860&Parent_pageType=product&Parent_nodeId=1335211155430699170860&Parent_pageType=product
Each e5500 core at 1.8GHz 13W / "core group", but I have not found what that "core group" term actually means.


It's frustrating that one cannot easily find a direct comparison of cip vs chip or core vs core wattage...

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edponpon 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 21-Apr-2017 19:14:38
#71 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2007
Posts: 281
From: USA, The World Police

I'm kinda surprised OS 4.X hasn't been seriously considered for Raspberry PI 3 and on. This little system has plenty of power for the OS and wouldn't be a risk for anyone to invest in, seeing how cheap it is. Now I know, someone out there is already going to point out "Emulating" Amiga on the Raspberry PI 3. I've considered that too, but I'm talking about having the OS on the MicroSD and having all new software specifically developed for this platform. Many people don't want to break the bank to buy an expensive hobbyist computer. I think we'd (Amiga community) have way more members and support if the OS and hardware were matched together just right. Just my 2 cents though. What do you guys think?

Ed



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Rob 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 21-Apr-2017 19:42:32
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5588
From: S.Wales

@edponpon

Quote:
I'm kinda surprised OS 4.X hasn't been seriously considered for Raspberry PI 3 and on.


Lack of resources.

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tlosm 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 21-Apr-2017 21:57:00
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@billt

probably they means core and cache ... and is in line for what is know on e5500 15w for core . 30w for 20 2ghz and more than double for the 40.
good if the e6500 is less hot.

Last edited by tlosm on 21-Apr-2017 at 09:57 PM.

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I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
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iggy 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 22-Apr-2017 14:38:12
#74 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@Hammer

Quote:
I do run 68K and PPC with Amiga Forever/WinUAE + AOS4 PowerPC on Intel Core i7-4790K at 4.5 Ghz.


How's that working out for you, using a eight thread 4.5 GHz cpu to run an emulation of an old, slow Amiga PPC card?
Somehow I can't see that outperforming an X5000, which would also have better video card support.

68K apps would fly though.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 24-Apr-2017 18:07:03
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3315
From: Unknown

@billt

Very interesting material.

Have you find any eventual PPC roadmap from nxp (now qualcomm)?

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billt 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 24-Apr-2017 18:44:13
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3023
From: Maryland, USA

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:
Have you find any eventual PPC roadmap from nxp (now qualcomm)?



I'm not aware of anything new being said. Last I spoke with Freescale/NXP was just as NXP purchased Freescale. I doubt Qualcomm bought NXP for hte PPC stuff...

http://www.nxp.com/assets/documents/data/en/supporting-information/QorIQ-Layerscape-Webinar.pdf
This roadmap is now basically past-tense, as it looked to 2016 as the future.


https://freescale.jiveon.com/docs/DOC-330317
Looks more recent and has NXP logos on it. Talks mostly of ARM, includes PPC on a few pages, and the roadmap does have a vague hint of some "next generation" green blob at top-right for PPC (with current products listed at left side), but doesn't actually say anything. I certainly wouldn't mind if AmigaOS moved on to ARM64, or even to x64.

Your guess is as good as mine.

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iggy 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 24-Apr-2017 20:08:39
#77 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:
Have you find any eventual PPC roadmap from nxp...


I don't think there are plans to go further.
Even before NXP bought Freescale, Freescale reps were encouraging customers to migrate to ARM (just ask Bill Buck) and the Qorlq line (which most e5500 and e6500 cored processors belong to) was migrating to ARM based devices.

PowerPC has been relegated to embedded, controller, and communications applications for some time now, even if the current PPCs we've focused on can be used for desktop and laptop applications (although they DO have too many NICs).

IBM now embeds PPCs in Power8 cpus as thermal and power monitors and controllers.

While the T2080 based laptop project is still moving forward (although the first funding drive for schematics has been pushed back to mid-May), I think we need to consider our options.

Current PPC cpus and cores will still be with us for several years (as Freescale has commitments to existing users), but we need to plan ahead.

Power8 and 9 ARE an option, IF a low enough cost board can be designed.
The Talos design from Raptor engineering is available for license and could be scaled down to lower price and make it better suited to eight core cpus.
Raptor's last price quotes were idiotically high for the proposed run of that board.
If it can't be done for $2K or less, there isn't much point in it for our market.

BUT, the advantage would be that as they are bi-endian, these processors WILL run our NG software.
AND, it WOULD attract buyers from outside of our community (the Linux community has been looking for a truly open platform for some time).

Then there is ARM and X64.
At one time I was an advocate of moving to ARM, but it still doesn't offer the power or flexibility of an X64 system.
AND the decision has been made to move MorphOS to X64.

Outside of AROS, no one is focusing on Amiga/ARM applications, so this could give OS4/OS4.2/OS5 a relatively exclusive niche.

However, X64 does seem to make the most sense, in the long run.

For me (and YES, I know I repeat this all the time), I'm quite happy with our current developments.

A QorlQ based AmigaOne is finally available (for those of you that don't know, this was the cpu line originally favored by Varisys when they were first contracted)
The P5020 based X5000 is quite nice (would be better if we had gpu assisted video decoding), and I look forward to buying a P5040 based variant.

AND, we will do what we can to get the T2080 based laptop built (if we can get the funding for Acube's assistance, that will help legitimize that project).

SO, while I'm sure I'll get some flamingly negative responses to this post, we're actually in a pretty good place.
New 68K hardware is being produced, new PPC hardware is being produced, THREE NG OS' continue to be developed, new software is being introduced and old software is being updated, AND the Amiga trademark appears to have be freed from its long time bondage to AInc.

Not bad for a "dead" platform.
As the FIRST multimedia PC, it deserves our continued attention.

Last edited by iggy on 24-Apr-2017 at 08:11 PM.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 25-Apr-2017 6:58:09
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3315
From: Unknown

@iggy

Great analysis.

+1

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iggy 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 25-Apr-2017 10:14:36
#79 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@AmigaBlitter

Thanks, way too long winded though.
But I was getting the impression that those rabid for the push to X64 didn't think that the rest of us were paying attention.
Our evolution has been slow (its a damned small market), BUT it is occurring.

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cgutjahr 
Re: PPC 5020, 5040... OS4.1, 4.2 ... and after?
Posted on 25-Apr-2017 13:39:08
#80 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 826
From: Unknown

@iggy
Quote:

IF a low enough cost board can be designed.

The second somebody needs to "design a board", you'll end up with massive delays, high prices, distribution and production problems - i.e. the situation we already have. There's no need to have custom hardware, so let's not have custom hardware please.

Designing your own boards is stupid, period. Pick one that will hopefully be available in big numbers for as many years as possible and support that.

The actual CPU you're using is the smaller problem. It shouldn't be PPC, for obvious reasons - but what you pick is only important for a small percentage of your OS developers and nobody else.

Quote:

Then there is ARM and X64.

The problem with ARM is the lack of desktop-worthy motherboards that are actually available for more than a year. All those SBC/pi clone manufacturers release a new revision every other year.

Quote:

Outside of AROS, no one is focusing on Amiga/ARM applications

Inside of AROS, only Papara is "focusing" on ARM, no? And that's only true if you define "focussing" as "is running AROS hosted on ARM Linux".

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