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      /  APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
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ferrels 
APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 22-Jun-2017 16:40:33
#1 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 922
From: Arizona

APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING

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pavlor 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 22-Jun-2017 16:56:12
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Another useless feature, when users are waiting for FPU.

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ferrels 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 22-Jun-2017 17:01:37
#3 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 922
From: Arizona

@pavlor

You must live in a cave to believe that hyper-threading is a useless feature. It's about as useless as running OS4 on current multi-core PPC CPU's.

AROS x86 has made some huge strides of late and supports SMP so I expect that the 68K version will support hyper-threading at some point.

OS4 users were promised SMP about 10 years ago as well as several other features that never came to fruition.

Gunnar has stated several times that the Apollo team has a functional FPU for the Vampire but it needs further testing. He's delivered everything he's promised so I expect that the FPU will be released when the testing has finished.

Last edited by ferrels on 23-Jun-2017 at 07:04 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 22-Jun-2017 at 05:03 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 22-Jun-2017 17:24:28
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Quote:
It's about as useless as running OS4 on current PPC CPU's.


Well, these CPUs at least have FPU and run 68k software faster than Vampire...


I was maybe too harsh on Gunnar et co, but I don´t see much use for multiple sloooooow CPU cores. SMP can help with video playback, but current "68080" would be too weak for common media files even with more cores. Raytracing software like Blender of course benefit from SMP, but FPU would bring much greater performance. Same for newer 3D games (taking aside lack of 3D accelleration).

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kolla 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 22-Jun-2017 17:24:47
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

Great for Apollo Core, but does it have anything to do with Vampire? And especially, will it ever be available for the currently Vampire cards?

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kolla 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 22-Jun-2017 17:32:36
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ferrels

Testing is not the issue, he wants code. He wants new software that is programmed for his new and "modern" FPU. He wants a "killer app". But very few (if any) are interested in writing some application solely for his FPU.


http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=5931

[QUOTE]
We absolutely do NOT need help to test the FPU.
We are perfectly able to do this on our own.

 
We look for someone interested in helping to write a new high end FPU application - which shows that FPU performance can be pushed to new limits.
 
The core calculation routines in this application need to be written in ASM.[/QUOTE]

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bennymee 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 22-Jun-2017 17:40:25
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 696
From: Netherlands

@ferrels

It would be more interested in how much speed could be gained or which compiler is used to enable hypertreading on 68080, then reading 1 anti OS4 comment here and one in the Apollo forum....

Last edited by bennymee on 22-Jun-2017 at 05:40 PM.

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ferrels 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 22-Jun-2017 17:43:52
#8 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 922
From: Arizona

@kolla


I think Gunnar is trying to avoid another FPU debacle like the one connected to the A1222. It still doesn't have FPU support either. At least OS4 users out there are not whining about it constantly but that's probably because almost no one has been able to get their hands on an A1222.

Last edited by ferrels on 22-Jun-2017 at 06:35 PM.

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ferrels 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 22-Jun-2017 17:46:18
#9 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 922
From: Arizona

@bennymee

Quote:
It would be more interested in how much speed could be gained or which compiler is used to enable hypertreading on 68080, then reading 1 anti OS4 comment here and one in the Apollo forum....


Then I suggest you contact Gunnar and ask him about the speed gains rather than complaining that I'm somehow an OS4 hater.

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utri007 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 22-Jun-2017 18:24:47
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Aug-2003
Posts: 1074
From: United States of Europe

@ferrels

Majority of software is made 1985 - 2000, so most important feature is compatibility with previous CPUs. That is not what they are doing now. But as said it is hobby Project and they do what they want to do.



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smf 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 23-Jun-2017 7:26:27
#11 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Mar-2003
Posts: 333
From: Växjö, Sweden

I'm with pavlor here. It's a pain in the ass that i can not move files from my 060 systems to my vampire systems an expect them to work..

I'm usually not complaining much and is quite happy when something is happening atleast but i really want that fpu before i even install the new vampire i have ordered(my 3rd vampire) and this useless feature must steal time from working on the fpu.

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tlosm 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 23-Jun-2017 8:19:36
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

can some one explain how it is possible?
will be more fpga or the fpga will emulate more cpu/thread inside?
if dual thread used at seme time will be one the thread 50% slower of the main sigle one?


Last edited by tlosm on 23-Jun-2017 at 08:19 AM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 23-Jun-2017 8:27:47
#13 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1204
From: Unknown

@smf

Seems Gunnar has completely lost it now. The Apollo, being a "68k" CPU (in FPGA nonetheless), can never be about speed in a contemporary context, at most it will be a souped-up fun-gadget for some 68k retro fans to run 68k Amiga applications a bit faster. But not having a 68k compatible FPU goes completely against this purpose, and introducing features only usable in heavy CPU-load contexts (such as rendering etc) where the Apollo will never be used anyway is a complete waste of time. Especially so since the Amiga per design is single thread, single CPU, etc, in other words, this is not compatible with Amiga!

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wawa 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 23-Jun-2017 8:36:06
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@tlosm
same as with smp. when cpu switches from one to two cores, each of them works at a half of speed.

Last edited by wawa on 23-Jun-2017 at 08:36 AM.

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wawa 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 23-Jun-2017 8:43:00
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Quote:
Amiga per design is single thread


are you sure? i think there are threaded programs on 68k already. thing is the threads are being executed in a row on a single cpu. for instance a browser where gui and engine run in dedicated threads or sdl ports detatching a thread for audio. however threads are not tasks, so i dont know what is being aimed at here.

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tlosm 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 23-Jun-2017 8:43:37
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@wawa

Thanks for the info now im less confused and can sleep well

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A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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eder 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 23-Jun-2017 8:52:27
#17 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 280
From: Unknown

@ferrels

But havent most aros developers left?
Isent aros mostlys abandoned ref to latest News.

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nikosidis 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 23-Jun-2017 9:07:55
#18 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@eder

Aros is in no way as dead as amiga ppc or morphs. Still active developers and since open source will always be possible to pick up for anybody that wants to work on it.

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RodTerl 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 23-Jun-2017 9:33:27
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 6-Sep-2004
Posts: 589
From: Rossendale

@nikosidis

Aint Hyperthreading just Intels copyrighted term to enable x86 to do half decent Enforced Preemptive Multitasking anyway?

As in, Sure amiga is single threaded, but you get a 100% use stuck piece of code, and when its run time slot expires, Exec freezes its state, and flushes the CPU and loads in the next waiting code?

I thought Hyperthreading was a method to use Side Registers, like the Z80 Cpu, just to avoid flushing the caches if they cant treat the cache like Ram and have more than one set of code, data in it at a time?

Cache is Serial Ram?

then again, Whats this with Stack Pages on the 68000 where instead of going through the stack LIFO style, you can flick the stack page by page, and slip out a whole page of saved data, Out Of Order that they were loaded into the Stack?

Will they implement the latest single word loop accelerator structure for threading, or do they already have that from the 68010?

A 64 bit integer unit is 4 Billion times more accurate than a 32 bit, which should be good enough to hit Mars in itself, and your screen isnt even 16 bit pixels wide yet, where does this FPU requirement come, or is there just that much build up of cumulative error in current math algorithm implementation?

For modern media, implement an FFT logic block and call it. Most video only needs 16 blocks of 64 bits wide for a standard 8*8 by 8 bits per channel macroblock en/decode? Same with SHA 256?

Or if you want to handle heavy processing, do it Amiga style. plug in a parralel accessed dedicated block of hardware. just how many GPUs can be initialised off a single 680x0 if they pass data between themselves without further CPU intervention?

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iggy 
Re: APOLLO 68080 Now With HYPER-THREADING
Posted on 23-Jun-2017 12:43:52
#20 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@wawa

Quote:
when cpu switches from one to two cores, each of them works at a half of speed


What?!

Gee, that would mean dual core cpus are no more powerful than a single core cpu, quads no more powerful than duals, etc.
Pure genius!
And intensely stupid.

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