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TRIPOS 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 0:34:55
#21 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 830
From: Unknown

@tonyw

From the comments of Olaf Barthel, I'd say he for one disagrees. So do I. And so do many others. Like Individual Computers, the Apollo/Vampire people, etc. And the millions of people that were touched by CBM 8-bit machined, that were touched by the Amiga, etc. We are many who would appreciate a secured future for the machines, the documentation, the operating systems, etc. The platforms. The culture. I'd say we are potentially hundreds of thousands. Even though not all are aware of it at the moment. But the moment their children's school would present an option to learn computers from a well set up C64 or Amiga based education environment (in contrast to some brain-dead "drag n' drop" iPad app), they would wake up and cheer. Or when suddenly the option to run C64 or Amiga stuff on their "Smart-TV" suddenly materializes.

I understand that you personally view "OS4" as some kind of peak of Amiga, where all the attention is supposed to be. Probably much because you are so involved in it. Maybe you can't see that in comparison, those touched by AmigaOne/OS4 counts in the hundreds period. Which I suppose puts your "what's the point" attitude in a whole different perspective, especially since OS4 is so tied to a dead-end CPU architecture, etc. A not particular wild guess would be that the UAE PowerUP emulation did more for the OS4 user base than all the AmigaOne computer sales combined. UAE may become the most relevant platform for OS4 in a close future. And as pointed out in the presentations, it's kind of cool how the same AmigaForever can run everything from the first Commodore version of the OS, to the latest OS4.

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TRIPOS 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 0:36:25
#22 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 830
From: Unknown

@Senex

Quote:

Senex wrote:
@TRIPOS

Thank you for the hard work of transcribing those speeches, I've pointed our readers to it.


Thank you!

Certainly not everyone involved in the Amiga today can say they have been here from the beginning, shaking hands with Jay Miner, Dave Haynie, etc back in the days, contributed, made business with David Pleasance, Petro Tyschtschenko, etc. But Michael Battilana can, and for more than 20 years, he and Cloanto has proven their true, unconditional love for the platform. Not by talking about it, but by persistent, long-term action. Everyone who has been around will testify on this.

Cloanto getting the Commodore/Amiga Copyrights was the best possible outcome. Their true love for the platform is proven. They want it to live. Forever. And their persistent actions over the last two decades of actually securing the platforms longevity is admirable. A proof of love. Nobody else has done what they have done for Amiga platform longevity. Nobody else is doing that work. It's basically them or no-one, that's the cold truth.

And now the copyright holder wants to discuss various possible futures! Including putting some of the IP in a foundation, maybe open sourcing it, etc. The things many of us hasn't even dared to dream about, might now actually happen!

This needs to be highlighted, it needs to be discussed. Not just here, everywhere. So again, thanks for your help spreading the word!

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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 0:48:25
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@Rob

Quote:
It certainly was as a gaming platform in Europe


That is unfortunate, since the platform is capable of so much more than video games.
And thanks to piracy, video games were not a particularly profitable venture for those trying to sell to the Amiga market.

In any case, my interest is not now, nor has it ever been, video games.

And Amiga, as it exists now, may not be an ideal platform for today's game.
Legacy hardware lacks the 3D and texture functions needed for good game support, and NG hardware isn't as powerful as a modern X64 platform (although it is somewhat comparable in performance to ARM).
So, outside of a certain 'retro' appeal to our gaming, what do we have?

Well, we still have a fairly light, compact OS.
We aren't completely converted to 'the dark side' (aka Intel).
Its an alternate platform that in some incarnations can still be used for 'modern' computing duties (I use Odyssey daily for web browsing).

@ Trixie

Thanks, I caught on pretty early (a few threads ago) that Tripos seemed a little fixated on certain legacy issues.
Honestly, I'm SO over the 'if we just tweaked 3.X this way...' argument.
OS 3.X is just what I run legacy software under, when I'm not running it under an NG OS.
And frankly, primary thanks to the endeavors of the Apollo team, I may not even need to use it for that as my hardware continues to improve.

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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 1:01:22
#24 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@TRIPOS

Quote:
...personally, I'd go as far as saying the C64 (Vic20 before that) and the Amiga defined me


Curious. I was never that impressed with other Commodore hardware. Certainly not the Vic20, which has a perfectly horrible display. The sprite capability and SID chips in the C64 helped to redeem it, but its still had that low rent 6502 derived cpu.

I guess, since my interests predate those systems, you could say my experience was defined more by Motorola, then any one computer manufacturer.

So, by the time the Amiga was introduced, I was already a big fan of the 68000 cpu.
And except for the Mac, I explored a lot of hardware based on that cpu.
The Amiga's chipset certainly added to the 68K experience, but the fact that it was fixed and received only limited upgrades also help spell the system's demise.

It was pretty painful watching the PC market adopt the multimedia features that made the Amiga stand out, while the Amiga itself evolved very little.
So frankly, this company you seem to revere, is the same one I would blame for putting the final nails in the coffin that Apple helped build.
Commodore obviously had no clue how to build sucessors to popular computer platforms.

Last edited by iggy on 18-Jul-2017 at 01:03 AM.

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ne_one 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 1:57:35
#25 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 735
From: Unknown

@tonyw

Quote:

But what would be gained by releasing 25 year-old sources? As has already been pointed out, their API has been known for years and of what use is a bunch of 68k assembler code or old C code? This is code that doesn't need to be maintained - it works and no one would reuse any part of it to write new code. Nothing would be gained.


The relative value is irrelevant.

Even as a symbolic gesture, open-sourcing 3.1 would attract considerable interest. Keeping it closed offers absolutely no options.

And I suspect at least a couple of camps would be especially interested in taking a closer look at a genuine, sanctioned release.

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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 2:19:58
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@ne_one

Quote:
And I suspect at least a couple of camps would be especially interested in taking a closer look at a genuine, sanctioned release.


Really? Why?
Because the info is already out there if you want an 'unsanctioned' look.
And at this point, it might be of benefit to the AROS 68K team, but other NG projects have progressed beyond it (I'm not sure it was all that useful in the construction of OS4 in any case).

Sure, if it was opened, you'd have no further need for AROS 68K, but it doesn't really affect anything else.

That's where legacy fanatics make a crucial mistake, OS 3.X is just a starting point for NG, a base to expand from.

Exactly replicating it isn't necessary. Not anymore than replicating earlier versions of Windows in later versions was a necessity. NT based OS' don't waste a lot of resources trying to duplicate 95-ME functionality. And 95 up wasn't that great at maintaining 3.1 compatibility.
And MacOS? Heh, even worse. OS 8, 9, 10? Not really compatible at all.

So other 'camps' would find AmigaOS source code interesting? I actually doubt that.

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ferrels 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 2:23:16
#27 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona

@ne_one

Quote:
Even as a symbolic gesture, open-sourcing 3.1 would attract considerable interest. Keeping it closed offers absolutely no options.


Considerable interest from whom? Certainly not from anyone doing modern OS development. And what "options" are you referring to?

Opensourcing OS3 is about as big a dead-end as opensourcing GEOS for the C64.

Last edited by ferrels on 18-Jul-2017 at 06:22 AM.

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Overflow 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 6:23:46
#28 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1409
From: Norway

@ferrels

Dead-end argument is a bit flat in a retro/hobby OS community. I find daily use using Vampire and AOS, but I have no illusions about the future of the OS or platform.
That said; opensource MIGHT make it easier for developers both using pure legacy hardware and socalled NG legacy to work on the same OS, towards same standards.

Or we just diverge towards AROS instead. I assume its the lack of opensource/progress on the AOS side that makes the Apollo Team push for AROS as a real alternative option for its hardware platform.

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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 9:17:49
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@Overflow

Quote:
I assume its the lack of opensource/progress on the AOS side that makes the Apollo Team push for AROS


I don't really think that is the reason...lack of 'opensource/progress'.
Rather, I think they just aren't that hung up on the Amiga trademark.

And the key to SF's post isn't the term 'dead-end', its the term 'modern'.
If you follow his posts, he'd be the last person to suggest that an Amiga related OS was going to return as a mainstream operating system.

Quote:
opensource MIGHT make it easier for developers both using pure legacy hardware and socalled NG legacy to work on the same OS, towards same standards


Unlikely. The creators of AROS have spent so much time recreating the OS, do you really think they'd just want to scrap it in favor of adopting old AmigaOS code? OS4 coders already have complete access to OS3 source. MorphOS coders are only interested in 3.1 API compatibility.

And what, pray tell, is 'pure' legacy hardware? Amiga was evolving toward a totally new hardware base when the company went bankrupt. Hardware changes/evolves as do operating systems. 'Pure'? I'm not interested in someone's idea of 'pure', I want better.

And frankly, I'm not sure why you guys keep insisting that its vital that AmigaOS be open sourced, like there is some magic hidden in that old code.

But you keep your 'faith', and I'll just enjoy the hobby.

Last edited by iggy on 18-Jul-2017 at 09:32 AM.
Last edited by iggy on 18-Jul-2017 at 09:31 AM.
Last edited by iggy on 18-Jul-2017 at 09:20 AM.

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BigD 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 10:26:33
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4114
From: UK

@iggy

Windows 7 and OS X Snow Leopard / El Capitan were probably the height of the old OS model. The three represent Classic (non-phone tech/guff) Windows on desktop, Old pure OS X for desktop and OS X reskinned as iOS and streamlined for desktop respectively.

Since DirectX is a big part of gaming on the PeeCee gamers have to upgrade to the nightmare that is Windows 8. OS X has less (read next to zero) grpahics API updates and Metal API has sucked upto now on desktop so why bother upgrading unless you need new hardware (with no ports, drives or expandability)?

AmigaOS is lucky to be alive and will limp on as long as we support it. It's not really comparable to mainstream OSes unless it finds a productive niche outside of this 'hobby'.

Last edited by BigD on 18-Jul-2017 at 10:28 AM.

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kolla 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 11:02:49
#31 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 688
From: Trondheim, Norway

Amiga OS 3.1 is de-facto open source - those who want the source have it, or know where to get it. Very few, if any, are interested in any further "official" development since that means being entangled with legal mess and whatnot.

Last edited by kolla on 18-Jul-2017 at 11:06 AM.

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Minuous 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 11:49:09
#32 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Oct-2004
Posts: 314
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS:

You're joking, surely. Cloanto sell a freeware emulator, a crippled version of OS3.5, and a broken version of KS3.1. That's about it. They have made it clear many times that they will never open source anything. I don't see what is so wonderful about them I'm afraid.

Last edited by Minuous on 18-Jul-2017 at 11:49 AM.

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IridiumFX 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 12:08:42
#33 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2017
Posts: 15
From: London, UK

@iggy

That's exactly what I wanted to avoid. Another thread full of personal opinions that have been stated, expressed, confronted and repeated over and over again.

I an not attacking you. I simply learned to understand which kind of posts tend to originate streams of needless words.

I personally like to fiddle with three of the 4 flavors. Never had time to buy/install MorphOS on the purposely purchased MacMini, but I may do in the future. But that's a hobby. A renewed way of "playing". And I personally came to like all of them so far.

If the AmigaOS was open source would it matter? Maybe.
I have a few ideas, but I don't want to fill another useless wishlist.


@Hypex
Sorry in advance, it was so funny, I had to do this.
Behold ...

In the beginning Commodore created the Lorraine and the Exec. Now the breadboard was formless and empty, cables were over the surface of the desk, and the management of Commodore was hovering over the diagrams.
And Commodore said, “Let there be code,” and there was code. Commodore saw the code and it was good, and he separated the ROM from the Disk. Commodore called the ROM “Kickstart” and the Disk he called “workbench.” And there was Hardware, and there was Software - the first Amiga.

Sorry, sorry again

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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 13:24:51
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@IridiumFX

No problem, I never interpreted your post as an attack.
And I'm not interested in fomenting dissension myself.

I've used all the 'flavors' you've mentioned except for OS4 myself, and will probably get to that eventually.
I don't have a problem with all four being supported.

Its just this weird argument that other 'camps' will benefit if AmigaOS is open sourced.

Don't get me wrong, I think it should have been by now.
Or at least be freely available, after all, do you see people paying for Win 3.1 or Win 95/98 these days?
I don't think its going to happen, as its generating revenue as an IP for a corporation, so...

But really, there is no 'magic' in that code.
The API was fully documented, and has been recreated in three different NG OS'.
About the only benefit to open sourcing for those operating systems would be the possible free inclusion of AmigaOS for emulation (which can already be done with OS4 if Hyperion cares to).

But the code itself isn't particularly useful outside of the utility it has in itself.

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Daedalus 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 14:35:32
#35 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1594
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote:

About the only benefit to open sourcing for those operating systems would be the possible free inclusion of AmigaOS for emulation (which can already be done with OS4 if Hyperion cares to).

That's already the case - OS4.1FE already ships with a full 3.1 setup for emulation purposes.

Quote:
But the code itself isn't particularly useful outside of the utility it has in itself.

Yep. But for some people this is a religious war to be waged against Amiga Inc/A-EON/Cloanto/Hyperion/The Man, therefore reasoning is out the window. And some other people hold the delusion that open source == magical success, after all, Linux is open source and look at it go. Again, reasoning is pointless against such beliefs. It could be argued that the code hasn't even been that useful for many years, since much of the core components have been replaced since, either through OS 3.5/3.9, or the myriad of patches and replacement modules that litter many a startup-sequence. There are replacement or heavily modified device drivers, handlers, filesystems, shells, exec libraries, datatypes, maths libraries, CPU libraries, icon libraries, DOS libraries, graphics libraries... Why do people still want the original code when they've spent the past 20 years replacing it all?

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amigang 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 15:09:59
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1358
From: Cheshire, England

Tripos it like you forget that Aros exists, the community got board of waiting for an open source AmigaOS so created it own, Aros, true it would be nice to see amigaos open sourced just to see what came out of it, but i dont know if it would really improve the current market, because well we already go an open source OS for Amga, it Aros!

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AmigaNG, YouTube, Software

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ferrels 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 17:04:11
#37 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona

@Overflow



Quote:
Dead-end argument is a bit flat in a retro/hobby OS community. I find daily use using Vampire and AOS, but I have no illusions about the future of the OS or platform. That said; opensource MIGHT make it easier for developers both using pure legacy hardware and socalled NG legacy to work on the same OS, towards same standards. Or we just diverge towards AROS instead. I assume its the lack of opensource/progress on the AOS side that makes the Apollo Team push for AROS as a real alternative option for its hardware platform.


OK, since you obviously missed the question or decided to just side-step it entirely, I'll ask it again. Considerable interest from whom? The number of classic Amiga hobbyists who MAY even want to look at the source aren't "considerable" in size by any means, let alone would many of them be expected to do anything with said source code if it was open sourced. The hobbyists with those skills have already looked at the code that was leaked some time ago and either made some custom ROM mods, reverse engineered what they needed, or stated that the code was essentially useless to them.

So again, where would this considerable interest that ne_one refers to come from? The code has already proven itself a dead-end, just as releasing the source code to GEOS for C64 hobbyists is a dead end. Nothing to be gained here, so move along.....

Last edited by ferrels on 18-Jul-2017 at 05:11 PM.

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Overflow 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 19:01:12
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1409
From: Norway

@ferrels

If you read my post I said "might", cause today its more hassle from a legal point of view than its worth (which isnt much Ill grant you that). Like kolla said, the sources are out there for those that feel like developing them futher, but you are basically taking your chances that noone will react.

If AOS3.x is opensourced, that issue is gone. Thats all. Doesnt mean the Apollo Team will care, but Ive read IRC chats where they just shake their heads over the mess called AOS, so it takes what COULD be some updating to a cold dead "cant be arsed".

Considerable intrest? I guess for me and many others that enjoy the OS for nostalgic reasons, and possible better utilization from Vampire hardware foundation.
And contrary to what Iggy seems to think, I dont operate from a faith based belief in the OS. It was just the first real OS I was exposed to, and as such feel attached to it. I enjoy it.
I know that whatever AOS can do, Wintel can do better. I have no illusion about that. Doesnt stop me from enjoying it, AND hoping the retro hobby can have restrictions lifted that prevent people from developing futher.
Again, I have no knowledge of anyone sitting at the edge of their seats waiting to develop the second it goes open source. But give the community that option and see what it leads to.

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kolla 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 19:42:02
#39 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 688
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Minuous

Quote:

Minuous wrote:
Cloanto sell a freeware emulator


Which they have sponsored development of, and participated in development of, for more than two decades now. You are in no position to criticize them for this, you are not Toni.

Quote:
a crippled version of OS3.5


First of all OS3.5 _is_ crippled.
Secondly, it is more like 3.9 on all accounts that really count, they put together what was possible without infringing the rights of the individuals who own the code they wrote for 3.9.

Quote:

and a broken version of KS3.1.


KS3.1 was already broken, they tried to rectify the most bleeding annoying flaws, and stumbled in their first attempts - no big deal, they corrected their mistakes. It's limited what they can accomplish without (legal) access to sources and dedicated developers.

Quote:
That's about it.


No, that is actually not "it", they offer so much more, but of course not everyone is interested in everything.

Quote:
They have made it clear many times that they will never open source anything.


Really? You have examples? Since it is something they have made clear so many times, you should not struggle, right? There is plenty of code in all the UAE incarnations that originate from Cloanto, and unlike many others, they offer source code for all open source used in their products, in coherence with the respective licenses.

https://www.amigaforever.com/sourcecode/

Does it bother you that they make money from open source? Newsflash - so does everyone in the IT industry, maybe you should suck it up and get off the grid.

And, bottom line, Cloanto are on record, many times, saying that they would like to see all classic Amiga OS (or Workbench, if you prefer) open sourced, it's something they have tried to help happening many times, sadly without much success. Read and listen to some interviews with them, for example the one Amicast did.

Quote:

I don't see what is so wonderful about them I'm afraid.


Then perhaps something is wrong with your eye sight.

Last edited by kolla on 18-Jul-2017 at 07:43 PM.

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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 19:59:27
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@kolla

Perhaps something is wrong with your sense of reality, because its still a proprietary OS, and open sourcing it is not a complex endeavor, unless of course you have a profit motive for not doing it.

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