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BigD 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 21:23:44
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4077
From: UK

@iggy

If the most efficient way of preserving the Classic OS is to follow Cloanto's commercial strategy rather than let's say Hyperion's legal strategy then I say good luck to them. There must be a ridiculous amount of red tape to wade through in regards to open sourcing an OS thst they only have a licence to SELL!

Last edited by BigD on 18-Jul-2017 at 09:24 PM.

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ferrels 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 21:24:44
#42 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona

@Overflow


Quote:
If you read my post I said "might", cause today its more hassle from a legal point of view than its worth (which isnt much Ill grant you that). Like kolla said, the sources are out there for those that feel like developing them futher, but you are basically taking your chances that noone will react. If AOS3.x is opensourced, that issue is gone. Thats all. Doesnt mean the Apollo Team will care, but Ive read IRC chats where they just shake their heads over the mess called AOS, so it takes what COULD be some updating to a cold dead "cant be arsed". Considerable intrest? I guess for me and many others that enjoy the OS for nostalgic reasons, and possible better utilization from Vampire hardware foundation. And contrary to what Iggy seems to think, I dont operate from a faith based belief in the OS. It was just the first real OS I was exposed to, and as such feel attached to it. I enjoy it. I know that whatever AOS can do, Wintel can do better. I have no illusion about that. Doesnt stop me from enjoying it, AND hoping the retro hobby can have restrictions lifted that prevent people from developing futher. Again, I have no knowledge of anyone sitting at the edge of their seats waiting to develop the second it goes open source. But give the community that option and see what it leads to.


Yeah, I guess it boils down to one's definition of "considerable". My definition is certainly different from ne_one's definition. But regardless if iOS3 is open sourced or not, it isn't going to impede or help the Amiga hobby community. The source was leaked long ago and the folks who were able to take advantage of this leak have already done so. And the Vampire community can opt to use AROS, the AfA project http://amidevcpp.amiga-world.de/afaupload.php, or vanilla OS3. Currently the only restrictions that I see are self-imposed by those who are afraid of a law suit. There's no clear copyright holder to OS3 so until that's cleared up, which party could even lodge a legal complaint regarding OS3's use or misuse? In the mean time, most users, hobbyists and classic developers will continue to do what they've done for years which is to carry on doing what they're doing even though it's a gray area under the law.

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kolla 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 21:37:51
#43 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 685
From: Trondheim, Norway

@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote:
@kolla

Perhaps something is wrong with your sense of reality, because its still a proprietary OS, and open sourcing it is not a complex endeavor, unless of course you have a profit motive for not doing it.


The problem is that despite of having gained the rights to copy and distribute the OS, Cloanto do not hold legal rights to the source code, and hence are in no position to officially open source it on their own. That's pretty much what the whole hoopla is about.

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TRIPOS 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 22:44:03
#44 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 816
From: Unknown

@Minuous

Quote:

Minuous wrote:
@TRIPOS:

You're joking, surely. Cloanto sell a freeware emulator, a crippled version of OS3.5, and a broken version of KS3.1. That's about it. They have made it clear many times that they will never open source anything. I don't see what is so wonderful about them I'm afraid.


In 1997 Cloanto set out on a new course, a new mission: to make a long-term commitment of preserving the Amiga platform. The 15th of November this year will actually be a 20-year anniversary for this (maybe this will be celebrated/highlighted somehow?).

Since then they have worked tirelessly, and against some rather heavy actions from misguided individuals (including bomb threats obviously ), to secure the Amiga future. In parallel to several owners, some which said "The Amiga is dead, long live the Amiga" only to proclaim something completely unrelated as the Amiga's future, they worked on securing the ROM's, the operating systems, the documentation, commercials, etc. They created a package that every true Amiga lover ought to have, a compilation of all the essential historical materials. They made tools for platform independent preservation to help all those thousands enthusiasts around the world saving the history of the platform. And not just for the Amiga, for the Commodore 8-bit systems as well. They have been working to set up a longevity infra structure, with the Internet Archive, they are cataloguing and preserving tens of thousands of titles. UAE wouldn't have been what it is without them. Who would even think about submitting PETSCII to Unicode? They have spent 20 years doing heavy-lifting for the sake of the platform. They have now collected all Commodore copyrighted materials under one umbrella. It (the rights) would probably have been scattered by the wind otherwise, but instead they have managed to clean up the entire Copyright chain, everything is covered and crystal clear now from a legal perspective.

They are essentially now the owners of Amiga. And unlike any other previous owner of the property in the history, they are now considering "handing over certain assets to a foundation or similar entity [...] to better make it prosper during our lifetimes".

And you piss all over it.

Other "AW.net heroes" constantly doing this as soon as they get the chance is "pavlor" and "NutsAboutAmiga".

This kind of belittling is actually very sad. Made by a sad bunch of people.

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TRIPOS 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 22:46:24
#45 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 816
From: Unknown

@kolla

Quote:
kolla wrote:
Amiga OS 3.1 is de-facto open source - those who want the source have it, or know where to get it. Very few, if any, are interested in any further "official" development since that means being entangled with legal mess and whatnot.


You do realize that what you are talking about here, is nothing but piracy? Just because the leaked sources are out there, doesn't mean it isn't copyrighted and proprietary, protected by law? Anyone who has looked at the sources are "contaminated" by them in a copyright-law manner, and any OS project they work on from thereafter gets contaminated as well, a smash ball for anyone wanting to raise IP pollution accusations.

Taking away "the legal mess is" can be one possible future that this thread can discuss, don't you realize that? Doesn't have to be open source either IMHO, it could still be closed source but for example owned and controlled by a foundation but with a very open approach to everyone wanting to create new projects based on the Amiga IP, and making it easier for anyone wanting to get involved, to get involved.


Quote:
kolla also wrote:

There is also the Vampire branches of 3.x, a blend of 3.1 and 3.9 kickstart, and dedicated exec.library (and who knows what else) very much like Cloanto's kickstarts.


I am actually kind of baffled by the rather "liberal" views on copyrighted Amiga property you have been showing in the above two posts.

And you never answered me in that other thread: Are the Vampire team, selling more than 4000+ units at €300 a piece (thus having a turnover of more than €1.2 MILLIONS) really shipping them with these unofficial ROM's based on copyrighted property owned by others?

Don't you agree it would be better if they could move away from any black zone, or gray zone or whatever, into a crisp white zone where they could use and contribute to the Amiga IP in a fully legal manner? Maybe even being able to call it "Amiga" for real, as an officially endorsed new Amiga model?

That's the kind of stuff I am talking about. That's the kind of stuff I presume Cloanto is talking about.

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TRIPOS 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 22:47:08
#46 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 816
From: Unknown

@Daedalus

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:
That's already the case - OS4.1FE already ships with a full 3.1 setup for emulation purposes.


...and MorphOS 3.9 shipped with lots of stuff (code and graphics) copyrighted by Tokai. But then he decided to go home and take his ball with him (delaying MorphOS 3.10 quite a bit), and Hyperion's parallel-released Workbench 3.1 was pulled from market and Hyperion also revoked the license for the accompanying Kickstart ROM.

I think it's important to understand who owns the underlying IP that everything else rests on, and that these are dynamic times. Some balls have been thrown up in the air, and this thread is about discussing where we want those balls to land.

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TRIPOS 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 22:47:21
#47 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 816
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Well, the owners of the Amiga is considering "handing over certain assets to a foundation or similar entity [...] to better make it prosper during our lifetimes".

And so many of you say: "We don't want it. What's the point? Move on..."

And why such a hang-up on "Open Source"? It's merely a possibility, not the main issue!



To reconnect to the topic of this thread, a future I am dreaming of, is:

The "Checkmark Branch" copyrights (Cloanto) and the "Boing Ball Branch" copyrights (Cloanto + Olaf Barthel) are both brought into one single foundation (BTW, sorry "Trixie", but you failed in providing alternative names for them ). This would clear up the last bits of "legal mess". After all, the Boing Ball Branch depends on (and can never be separated from) the Checkmark Branch. The Checkmark Branch can live on (as a preservationist asset) forever in it's current state, but the Boing Ball Branch (as an evolutionist asset) can not legally survive without the Checkmark Branch. It would truly be a shame if that would be lost.

Cloanto would contribute with the copyrights (and possibly trademark licenses, etc), Olsen would contribute with the source code tree he has been governing.

Such a foundation would then become a single entity controlling both the preservationist Commodore 3.1 copyrights, as well as the evolutionist 3.1 work from Olaf Barthel that is the foundation of any further, post-Commodore development of any OS effort based on those sources (including OS4).

As a foundation, it would ultimately be governed by a set of fixed statues, that should have a focus on 1) Eternal Longevity of the platform, 2) Easy Accessability of the platform, 3) Preservation of the platform, 4) Evolution of the platform, and 5) an inclusive, appreciative and allowing attitude towards alternatives in the platform (read: MorphOS, AROS, etc).

It would have a Board consisting of at least Michael Battilana and Olaf Barthel, but preferably by a certain number of other community dignitaries as well (Jens Schönfeld? Christoph Gutjahr? Etc?) to achieve some dynamics. The chairs should of course have substitutes in place, in case of death or illness.

As a foundation it would have it's own economy, and any licensing money (or whatever source of income) should build up and accumulate internally, not for generating profit for anyone, but for working towards supporting of the fixed statues defining the foundation.

Developers/publishers like Hyperion could be awarded a license (for OS4, which is based on the "Boing Ball Branch"). Hardware and system builders like Individual Computers and the Apollo/Vampire team could be awarded licenses for use/distribution and adaptation. Licenses should be easily accessible for any entity acting in accordance to the foundations defining statues (including "alternative OS's", should they want to)

All problems solved, all wounds can be healed!

I'd also like to see a similar empowering approach to any Commodore 8-bit efforts that's going on, including Individual Computer's various C64 reloaded efforts, the newly announced "Ultimate-64", etc.

That's what I would like to see!

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TRIPOS 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 23:01:15
#48 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 816
From: Unknown

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote:
@kolla

Perhaps something is wrong with your sense of reality, because its still a proprietary OS, and open sourcing it is not a complex endeavor, unless of course you have a profit motive for not doing it.


The problem is that despite of having gained the rights to copy and distribute the OS, Cloanto do not hold legal rights to the source code, and hence are in no position to officially open source it on their own. That's pretty much what the whole hoopla is about.


They claim (and I believe them, copyright detective work has been their core business for 20 years) to have the copyrights of "everything Commodore".

If you by "the source code" mean the "Boing Ball Branch", then you are correct. But the thing is that the "Boing Ball Branch" is forever intertwined with Cloanto's "Checkmark Branch" copyrights, thus kind of locking the Boing Ball Branch down (and any and all OS's based on those sources, like OS4).

That's why I think the idea of a joint foundation is such an attractive way forward.

But if you by "the source code" mean the "Checkmark Branch", then I believe Cloanto have the copyrights covered in full (the entire copyright chain is cleaned according to Michaels presentation above), thus they can do whatever they want with it. They could probably do it right this instant, should they desire.

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Overflow 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 23:06:46
#49 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1385
From: Norway

@TRIPOS

Ive purchased several versions of Cloanto's Amiga Forever, 3 AOS 3.1, one 3.9 and one AOS4FE.
And I suspect alot of us has been equally supportive, without it giving us anything but the fuzzy feeling of supporting our remaining vedors.

But watching the shitshow called AOS just produces apathy to the whole thing, regarding rights or whatnot.

Ive read threads like this for years, and there is no actual progress.

THAT aside, thanks for compiling the long list of info.

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TRIPOS 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 23:28:38
#50 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 816
From: Unknown

@Overflow

Quote:

Overflow wrote:
@TRIPOS

Ive read threads like this for years, and there is no actual progress.


The difference this time, is that things has been put on the edge now. Action has been provoked, some things has coincided. The dice is rolling, so to say.


Quote:
THAT aside, thanks for compiling the long list of info.


Thanks!

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number6 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 23:48:55
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9802
From: In the village

@TRIPOS

Why not post a link to your AW thread on eab, where you would surely get more people inspired to write to Mike?

#6

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gregthecanuck 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 18-Jul-2017 23:59:48
#52 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 772
From: Vancouver, Canada

@TRIPOS

The situation with OS3.1 source is definitely interesting!

Taken from the perspective of new/upcoming 68K-based platforms (i.e. Vampire and whatever Jens has cooking)...

There are going to be new hardware capabilities that need supporting. For example the Vampire needs an updated Exec and numerous other updates to the OS. This is currently being handled by patching the relevant libraries.

In the longer run there are going to be higher-end 68K changes coming (new MMU, DMA support, hyper-threaded CPU...) that may require more low-level changes to the OS.

So to my mind, here's the rub... Do we wait for OS3.x to become open-sourced and work from that?

Or do we support AROS which has the benefit of already being ported to other platforms. For example rudimentary multi-core support has been introduced into AROS. How long (if ever) would it take for that kind of support to make it into OS3.1/3.x?

Perhaps open-sourcing OS3.1 should just be a way of providing a source code 'reference'? Relevant portions could be ported over to AROS and save time on that end reinventing the wheel? i.e. certain libraries, devices, etc...

Perhaps open-sourcing OS3.1 could be useful for patching for 'classic' systems which could include rolling in all the 3.5/3.9 updates, but still would be a 'classic' 68K platform?

That would then lead to the possibility of AROS becoming the 'next-gen' 68K platform?


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ne_one 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 19-Jul-2017 3:37:10
#53 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 731
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Quote:

Considerable interest from whom? Certainly not from anyone doing modern OS development. And what "options" are you referring to?


Interest... that doesn't imply leveraging it as the foundation of anything.

It's pretty simple: release the code officially and allow people to do what they want with it. If that amounts to nothing it's still exercising an option.

The overriding spirit is to encourage dialogue and to help unify a fractured community.

Quid pro quo.

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ne_one 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 19-Jul-2017 3:53:20
#54 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 731
From: Unknown

@iggy

Quote:

So other 'camps' would find AmigaOS source code interesting? I actually doubt that.


Open-sourcing 3.x isn't about the value proposition that it brings - and it's certainly not about denying the opportunity.

There is no CBA behind this. Open it up and move on to next step in detente.

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ferrels 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 19-Jul-2017 5:43:23
#55 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona

@ne_one

Quote:
Interest... that doesn't imply leveraging it as the foundation of anything. It's pretty simple: release the code officially and allow people to do what they want with it. If that amounts to nothing it's still exercising an option. The overriding spirit is to encourage dialogue and to help unify a fractured community. Quid pro quo.


The cat is out of the bag. The source was leaked/released years ago. People are doing and have already done what they want with it. And they have done so for years without any real fear of prosecution since there's no clear copyright holder to the source code.

So who do you propose should make an "official" release of derelict source code? And there isn't any party who is willing to take on the legal fees to be granted the copyrights to the code because the return on investment simply isn't worth it, especially in light of the fact that the code is already in the wild. There's nothing to be gained by an "official" release which hasn't already been done.

So enlighten us as to what you think a classic software developer would use the code for since you keep asserting that there are "options" to be exercised and some joyful reunification that needs to occur.

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Rob 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 19-Jul-2017 20:23:33
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5565
From: S.Wales

@TRIPOS

Quote:
A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures


The thread title is about possible futures rather than one possible future. The topic is obviously about 68k Amiga OS but only open sourcing has been discussed so far. Perhaps we could explore the idea of further commercial development.

There are a number of possibilities here.

OS4.x 68k could be a possibility. The 3.1 Exec and backports of 4.1 components and libraries that aren't tied to ExecSG would bring 68k Amiga OS up to a level beyond 3.9.
Plus side. Hyperion's contract and settlement with Amiga Inc appears to allows them to do this.
Minus side. The pace of putting it altogether could be slow and could further slow the pace of Amiga OS PPC development, although the possibility of some revenue for developers might be a motivator.

Cloanto could release something more substantial but do they have much to offer of 3.1. In another thread you said that their 3.x release was on par with 3.9 but I haven't tried it for years when it was little more than 3.1 with some addons. Also what are they actually allowed to release outside of emulation, are they bound by similar conditions to Amiga Inc?

A-EON are working on a 68k version of their enhancer package which includes new libraries, classed and other components, some of which are also part of OS4.x. They could partner with Hyperion or Cloanto to bring out a new 3.1 based OS release that includes all this software as standard. The could thing here is that the software is already in development and will be released. A-EON are also willing to make a real investment to push software development further and faster.

I think this approach is more likely to yield advancement of 68k Amiga OS faster than any open source effort which could be very successful but is equally likely to deliver nothing at all.

Please feel free to further discuss or dispute anything in this post.

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tonyw 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 0:17:41
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3097
From: Sydney (of course)

@TRIPOS

I find myself agreeing with you more often these days. One of us is slipping

I won't comment on Olaf's opinions. I read a lot of them on the OS4 developers' ML, where they are private. However, I agree with you that Olaf (seems to) consider the continuation of the 68K legacy important.

If, as you say, the PPC is a "dead-end CPU", then we, the OS4 team, are prepared for the inevitable death of that hardware by writing (mainly) hardware-agnostic code (these days). The same can not be said for the 68K Classic environment, where a much larger proportion of the running code is written in 68K assembler.

I would have thought that the future of 68K-based hardware is much less certain that that of PPC-based hardware.

Last edited by tonyw on 20-Jul-2017 at 12:18 AM.

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Zylesea 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 0:18:12
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2023
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@gregthecanuck

Quote:

gregthecanuck wrote:
@TRIPOS

The situation with OS3.1 source is definitely interesting!

Taken from the perspective of new/upcoming 68K-based platforms (i.e. Vampire and whatever Jens has cooking)...

There are going to be new hardware capabilities that need supporting. For example the Vampire needs an updated Exec and numerous other updates to the OS. This is currently being handled by patching the relevant libraries.

In the longer run there are going to be higher-end 68K changes coming (new MMU, DMA support, hyper-threaded CPU...) that may require more low-level changes to the OS.

So to my mind, here's the rub... Do we wait for OS3.x to become open-sourced and work from that?

Or do we support AROS which has the benefit of already being ported to other platforms. For example rudimentary multi-core support has been introduced into AROS. How long (if ever) would it take for that kind of support to make it into OS3.1/3.x?

Perhaps open-sourcing OS3.1 should just be a way of providing a source code 'reference'? Relevant portions could be ported over to AROS and save time on that end reinventing the wheel? i.e. certain libraries, devices, etc...

Perhaps open-sourcing OS3.1 could be useful for patching for 'classic' systems which could include rolling in all the 3.5/3.9 updates, but still would be a 'classic' 68K platform?

That would then lead to the possibility of AROS becoming the 'next-gen' 68K platform?




I think open sourcing AmigaOS will help future developement of the 68k branch. Eventually a lot from AROS could get merged into AOS.
As of now I think AfA OS is a good thing for 68k. Original AmigaOS heavily patched with AROS parts (unfortunately it uses rather outdated AROS parts). But it's a bit dirty, its patch work. With an open sourced AmigOS this could get merged at source level.

But if old AmigaOS will not get open sourced, a pure AROS approachis obiously the way forward.

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Rob 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 0:36:11
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5565
From: S.Wales

@tonyw

Quote:
If, as you say, the PPC is a "dead-end CPU", then we, the OS4 team, are prepared for the inevitable death of that hardware by writing (mainly) hardware-agnostic code (these days). The same can not be said for the 68K Classic environment, where a much larger proportion of the running code is written in 68K assembler.


CPU power is limited on 68k so it makes more sense to use assembly to wring every last bit of performance when necessary. I used to play console games via emulation on my A1200 and i quickly found that the emulators written in assembly ran at full speed and often faster if you had that option while the C ports from other platforms were mostly incapable of being usable even on an 060. That is why tight optimised code is coveted over portability on that platform.

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gregthecanuck 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 7:08:40
#60 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 772
From: Vancouver, Canada

@Zylesea

The ball is in whoever's hands the whole OS3.1 source code sits in. Take too much longer and it will just become irrelevant. AROS is more advanced in some areas and less advanced in others.

More patience....

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