@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

the interesting part about is that Directory Opus 4 it is open source, yet no one has worked on it, for many years, just open sourcing thing does not guaranty, any continued development.

dopus (or rather a fork of dopus if you will) is actively maintained here:

https://trac.aros.org/trac/browser/AROS/trunk/contrib/dopus

last (cosmetic) commits as old as few months.

must admit though, i mostly use the genuine 68k version i have at hand, even on aros, propably because its faster to simply copy it over than build it anew.

Last edited by wawa on 21-Jul-2017 at 10:14 AM.
Last edited by wawa on 21-Jul-2017 at 10:12 AM.

@Hans

Quote:

In reality, Sourceforge, Github, and others are littered with projects that were open-sourced and then left stagnant.

everything gets stagnant eventually. developoing something for the sake of it doesnt make any sense. whats worth, is to have opportunity to do it and the sources or documentation, at least as reference.

any of these "stagnant" projects as you call them, is in a better position than amiga sources we are here talking of, being stagnant, practically abandoned, yet locked away. im certain you have taken advantage of open references in your work on os4 contributions and i suspect more developers might jump in if what they would not have to sign some non disclousure contracts. just saying, but i dont really want to convince you to ideas you simply might not like.

@wawa

Altho Dopus isnt required to run hardware, like AOS (OSs in general). So with new hardware (Vampire in particular) there is vested insentive to add features/tweak the OS to utilize the hardware features.
Dopus doesnt have that same demand. It does what it is intended to do. Room for improvements? Ofcourse.

@NutsAboutAmiga

is open source always better

no

is closed source always better

no

finally you always need someone or a group of people who care and invest time, be it for fun or because of commercial interests. For "Commercial interests" the platform is too small so finally it is mainly fun, even when you look at closed source commercial developments. Open source at least offers a chance for development, too many amiga software is closed and sources are lost or at least not open and developers long left. Open source is neither evil nor the solution for everything.

@IridiumFX

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Sorry in advance, it was so funny, I had to do this. Behold ...

And it was very good. Classic.

@kolla

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I have not seen that yet, from a quick glance, those binaries are still there.

Well no.

Open sourcing OS sounds like nice idea, but OS development needs a little bit more than mere ability to recompile source code.

@OlafS25

I got this e-mail a few days ago, it looks like Bounty source is looking for some who willing to work two to fore hours a week for free.

I sure they can find some one that lacks work experience that make take it on, but I doubt anyone that qualifies to there demands is going to jump on that chance.

Quote:

Bountysource is looking to bring new core contributors to the team. This is a great opportunity for someone to take the reigns on an amazing project and help make a difference within the open-source community. Before you get worried, please be assured that Bountysource isn’t going anywhere. I (rappo) will continue to lead and administrate Bountysource. Warren will step aside as lead developer as soon a new core member can take his place. Warren will stay on to provide occasional technical expertise, as well as handle some of the behind-the-scenes business-y stuff with me. Your role as a core developer We’re looking for someone who has a strong background in Rails, Postgresql, and Angular.js. Some of the initial tasks include: Review PRs, encourage community development Merge, test, and deploy code changes Work with our volunteer SRE to move to a new host (details to come soon, but we’re working on a sponsorship!) Investigate and fix any high priority bugs You will, of course, also have the opportunity to build out new features and run experiments, should you be interested. There is no shortage of cool things to do. Expectations While we anticipate there’s almost zero work required for maintenance and hotfixing, we would ask that anyone who is applying to be a core member please be able to give 2-4 hours a week in order to make this meaningful. It goes without saying, but this is not a paid position, you will be joining our open source team. You may have the opportunity to earn bounties (placed by either Bountysource or anyone in the community) or a cut of the Salt campaign, but this should not be an expectation. I'm in! Let's talk… Great! First thing to do, if you haven't yet, is get Bountysource.com up and running locally: GitHub Documentation (take notes, we could always use improved docs!) Next, browse our open issues and pending pull requests, and show us what you got. It could be reviewing a PR, submitting a PR, or just being able to speak intelligently to us about our code. Finally, fill out this quick (I promise it's quick and there’s no login required!) Google Form to officially "apply" to join the team. …Or Become a Backer If you want to help out financially instead of through code, we appreciate any and all contributions to our fundraising campaign: https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/bountysource Chat with us #bountysource on Freenode IRC bountysource.slack.com Thanks, The Bountysource Team

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jul-2017 at 04:57 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jul-2017 at 04:56 PM.

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@kolla
@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @Hans ... Secondly - no. The vast majority of "successful" open source projects (if we define that as software that is being maintained and used) is stuff you have barely heard about, mostly developed by individuals and/or very small groups, sometimes as funded projects and sometimes not. Software often has a lifespan in which is it relevant, before something else comes along that does it better. That doesn't mean the old sources are useless, as they still function as reference, documentation and simply history.

I guess you have a different definition of success than I do. I've tried to use some of those open-source projects you're talking about... and they inspired me to buy commercial equivalents. Looking at the open-source software that I use regularly they all have the financial backing and support of companies/organisations. That covers Firefox, Linux, Silverstripe, Wordpress, etc.


@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote: @Hans Quote: In reality, Sourceforge, Github, and others are littered with projects that were open-sourced and then left stagnant. everything gets stagnant eventually. developoing something for the sake of it doesnt make any sense. whats worth, is to have opportunity to do it and the sources or documentation, at least as reference.

Maybe I should have used the word abandoned. Remember Feelin and FryingPan? Both were actively developed, and that pretty much ceased the moment they were open-sourced. I remember seeing other projects have a similar fate, although I can't remember which ones any more. When these were open sourced, I got the impression that the authors hoped that others would come along to help. Nobody did...

Bear in mind that I'm interested in bringing AmigaOS up to modern standards, and that's NOT going to happen with a few people tinkering on free source-code in their spare time.

If you can find a way to open-source AmigaOS** with a solid business model to fund development despite the source being freely available, then I'd be all for it. Blindly open-sourcing and hoping for the best can actually kill a project. Quoting Olaf25:
Quote:

is open source always better no is closed source always better no

Hans

** By this I mean the latest version of the OS, i.e., 4.x. I don't see the 3.1 sources as useful.

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@ferrels

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So enlighten us as to what you think a classic software developer would use the code for since you keep asserting that there are "options" to be exercised and some joyful reunification that needs to occur.

Evidently I'll have to clarify once again as you're fixated on an outcome.

No one has claimed that interest - considerable, marginal or otherwise is going to yield anything of value or send people out into the streets in jubilation.

When something proprietary is offered legitimately and freely it provides potential. Nothing more.

But that alone is something.

@ne_one

Quote:

Evidently I'll have to clarify once again as you're fixated on an outcome. No one has claimed that interest - considerable, marginal or otherwise is going to yield anything of value or send people out into the streets in jubilation. When something proprietary is offered legitimately and freely it provides potential. Nothing more. But that alone is something.

You obviously don't get it. You have to own code or be the author of the code before you can open source it, and currently no one owns OS3 and it's a costly and lengthy legal venture to determine a clear owner. OS3 has been derelict for years with several parties claiming ownership. You continue to sidestep or ignore the questions posed to you, or maybe you just have a reading comprehension problem, so I'll ask the questions again. You keep advocating for a release of proprietary code but you can't even identify who owns said proprietary code. So who is going to initiate this "official" OS3 source code release that you keep advocating? And again, what is this "potential" that you keep talking about? The entire discussion of open sourcing OS3 is pointless for 2 reasons, one, because there is no clear copyright holder and two, because the code was leaked years ago and was the basis for the BoingBag releases and other projects.

My questions will continue to go unanswered by you because you don't have a clue as to who owns OS3 and there are no potential benefits for "officially" releasing the code as it's already been leaked in the wild many years ago. You can download the code and check it out yourself. Just do a Google search for the torrent with the following filename: "amiga os source code 3.1.tar.bz2" and you can enjoy the "potential" you keep harping about.

Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jul-2017 at 10:03 PM.
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@Hans

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Remember Feelin and FryingPan?

feelin is good for nothing. no single software uses it. its fine if its open source though.

frying pan is maintained as contribution in aros source. i have some patches to make it work on 68k again, not ready though. i dont have that option with closed source. if it had become part of os4 it would practically be locked away.

Quote:

Bear in mind that I'm interested in bringing AmigaOS up to modern standards, and that's NOT going to haphas pen with a few people tinkering on free source-code in their spare time.

really? and the numerous os4 developers are employed full time on this very task working behind the scenes? results just around the corner?

let me remind you that aros for instance has usb stack that has been open sourced by the genuine developer, which is actively maintained, apparently still better than the one delivered with os4. aros has gallium and initial implementation of smp, which is public. on os4 people are only talking and dreaming of things like that. so, im a noob, but maybe open source isnt just as bad..

@wawa

Well most of it has been done not compliantly unfunded.

https://www.power2people.org/projects/overview/

But generally its under funded, your lucky having gotten what you have I think.
sure there are some developers who do things because they wont it, not because of money.

That's great they don't need the money and have the time all the better.

But I think if your going to do really demanding stuff like TCP/IP stack update, or the office package or anything like that you need to pay for it, a few bucks wont help.

Besides what happens when the bounty is over and who is going to continue it. keep it up to date, maintain it.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jul-2017 at 06:08 PM.

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@pavlor

Yes, I found that after I posted, but iffparse.library is far from the only thing from the source code release... leak... that ended up in BB3+4.

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@Hans

Quote:

I guess you have a different definition of success than I do. I've tried to use some of those open-source projects you're talking about... and they inspired me to buy commercial equivalents. Looking at the open-source software that I use regularly they all have the financial backing and support of companies/organisations. That covers Firefox, Linux, Silverstripe, Wordpress, etc.

I am sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but your Linux distro is littered with abandoned software, open source projects that have not seen any activity in years, sometimes decades.

Quote:

Maybe I should have used the word abandoned. Remember Feelin and FryingPan? Both were actively developed, and that pretty much ceased the moment they were open-sourced.

Feelin was trying to solve a problem that wasn't there, by creating new problems.

FryingPan simply stopped being relevant. I have as much use for FryingPan as I have for MakeCD that I bought many, many years ago - none. CDs and DVDs are simply not relevant anymore, the author realised and decided to release the sources of his software. Nice gesture, but not much more.

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I remember seeing other projects have a similar fate, although I can't remember which ones any more. When these were open sourced, I got the impression that the authors hoped that others would come along to help. Nobody did...

Poseidon? DOpus Magellan?

Lately I have been looking for the original sources of Poseidon 4.5 and earlier, as I cannot get asixeth.class to work reliably with my Deneb controller. I also would like to recreate the sources of 4.2, since it worked just fine with Poseidon 4.2, and I would like to see the diff of asixeth.class between 4.2 and 4.4 and figure out where it went wrong.

Sadly, I think that is rather tricky to do, since AFAIK the source code release of Poseidon was done in typical Amiga fashion - it had to be bought out (close to 4000 euros) and AFAIK, instead of a revisioned repo, it was just an archive with the current sources.

Quote:

Bear in mind that I'm interested in bringing AmigaOS up to modern standards, and that's NOT going to happen with a few people tinkering on free source-code in their spare time.

That is not going to happen no matter what you do with it, it's an operating system that is tied and locked to the past. As is all the software built for it. The only way forward would be to do what Apple did in the transition from OS9 to OSX - abandon the past and create a future based on proven, modern, flexible and scalable technologies.

Quote:

If you can find a way to open-source AmigaOS** with a solid business model to fund development despite the source being freely available, then I'd be all for it. Blindly open-sourcing and hoping for the best can actually kill a project.

A solid business model will _NEVER EVER_ exist for AmigaOS - closed source or open source has nothing to do with that.

Sadly, in Amiga land, open sourcing is something that most often is done by authors just as they abandon their projects, rather when they start projects.

Last edited by kolla on 22-Jul-2017 at 07:20 PM.

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@Rob

Quote:

OS4.x 68k could be a possibility. The 3.1 Exec and backports of 4.1 components and libraries that aren't tied to ExecSG would bring 68k Amiga OS up to a level beyond 3.9.

The closest to this is the OS4 programs compiled as 68K in order for OS4 to boot off an actual Amiga.

But on the whole a OS4.x 68K is unlikely because the point of OS4 PPC was to move over to a new faster CPU.

If OS4 is slow on a real Amiga then it will be even slower on a real 68K. Even on a faster virtual 68K it would still be too slow for real world use.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

the interesting part about is that Directory Opus 4 it is open source, yet no one has worked on it, for many years, just open sourcing thing does not guaranty, any continued development.

It had a bug in the search that annoyed me for many years. I'm sure someone fixed in but I could never find a clear version to download. I found PPC soon enough but for years have struggled to find a 68K version to the point I gave up looking for it. So my A4000 is still waiting for DOpus to be updated.

DOpus is also interesting as it's one of the first programs I ran on AROS. And that was scarey. So here I was in front of this AROS PC, which was essentially an AmigaOS clone on x86, running DOpus. It looked exactly the same and acted like it as well.

That is the power of open source and portability. AROS cloned a closed source OS to be portable. Then an open source program for original OS was tweaked to compile for it. It was very close.

Last edited by Hypex on 23-Jul-2017 at 03:56 PM.

@Hypex

If you say port over 4.0 features then that, might be more doable, then 4.1 features,
4.1 we have composition that depends on modern hardware,
we have Radeon HD drivers, the is not even PCIe lot on old Amiga, so where do plug that.

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@Hypex

We noticed more and more is how old and dated DOpus is, thing like category tiles in list is fixed, so if long filenames you can't read the full name, no way to filter or sort by date, things like that. I think run into issues as well with long names, copying stuff from usb-sick.

I also been playing with idea of supporting UTF8 filenames, yes know nothing else does, but I noticed that files compressed on other operating system did have the names in lha file in UTF8 format, so I think kind make sense.

It be not to hard to add full UTF8 support to Scalos and Opus5, and so on.
(my UTF8.library has similar named functions as the ones in the OS, only difference is bullet fonts, instead of disk fonts)

Maybe it be idea, to identify the filesystem on device, to determine the correct encoding.

OFS = ASCII
FFS = ASCII
SFS = ASCII
SFS2 = UTF8
NTFS = UTF8
ex2 = UTF8
FAT32 = UTF8

and so on.

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@wawa & kolla

Don't have much time to spare, so just a few quick comments

Quote:

kolla wrote: I am sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but your Linux distro is littered with abandoned software, open source projects that have not seen any activity in years, sometimes decades.

So the machine is cluttered with software that I likely don't use... I pretty much only use Linux for web-servers, and the software I'm interested in is fully functional and actively maintained.

Quote:

wawa wrote: @Hans Quote: [quote]Bear in mind that I'm interested in bringing AmigaOS up to modern standards, and that's NOT going to haphas pen with a few people tinkering on free source-code in their spare time. really? and the numerous os4 developers are employed full time on this very task working behind the scenes? results just around the corner?

What do you think I've been doing the last few years? Writing Radeon HD drivers for relatively recent cards and creating Warp3D Nova. None of that would have been possible without A-EON taking on these projects as commercial undertakings. Without that my contribution to AmigaOS would likely be almost zero, as I also need to earn money to buy food. I literally wouldn't have the time to be able to contribute. So that would be one developer fewer.

To be clear, I'm in no way suggesting that open-source is bad. I just think that the decision to open-source a project you want to be actively developed should be better thought out than "well, if the source is open then hopefully some developers will work on it... for free... in their spare time."

Quote:

kolla wrote: Sadly, in Amiga land, open sourcing is something that most often is done by authors just as they abandon their projects, rather when they start projects.

And if AmigaOS' source were opened tomorrow, it would likely mean that it too is being abandoned.

Hans

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@Hans

Good point. Open sourcing does not automatically mean future improvement.

@everyone here

This discussion about the possible future would never ever get to any point unless the companies involved into remaining Amiga relics stop fighting each other. This discussion about the possible future won't bring any result unless people will stop dreaming and will finally get real.

First. To survive, a platform needs basically two things: money and popularity.

Money are needed for marketing (gaining popularity) and surviving (let coders do they work feeding their families), so who has the money should, in the beginning, start investing them. Money are not enough to sustain the traditional development chain? We need either to find more money, or a different development model, or - definitely - both. So maybe creating an Amiga fund raising campaign with common people and actual companies contributing would be a starting point.

Second. Owning of the sources.

Years after years, it's getting even more and more difficult to keep track of who has what. Cloanto has the copyrights but it actually OWNs the code? What rights exactly belong to Hyperion? And is Amiga Inc still alive? What does it own yet? Once this will be cleared, AmigaOS sources will need a full review to clean it from software licensed from third parties by Commodore. These parts can't be freely open sourced for the simple reason they are someone else's property, and should be separed from the sources.

Third. Open sourcing everything possible.

Once the code has been reviewed and cleaned off, it must be brought to a usable shape. This crazy work has already been done - IIRC - before works on AmigaOS 4 actually started. This explains why collaboration from Hyperion would be important. Once the code has been brought to a usable shape (this means compilable by current development tools), it should be released under a suitable license. IMHO, AROS team has the right one, since it's good for both developers and companies interested in using the code.

Fourth. Giving AROS "the name" and merging sources.

AROS is already open source and has already got godzillions of enhancements over the original Amiga OS. All this unvaluable work, son of 20 years of hard work, is incredibly precious and must not be wasted. AROS should be allowed to use the 'Amiga' name in some form, and code coming from AROS and AmigaOS should be reviewed and merged, keeping the most advanced solution. The resulting code should be portable and easy to mantain, in order not to be stuck to a limited set of processor architectures.

Fifth. The Common Amiga Open System

Some separed entities should exist: the community, the Amiga IP association, the Amiga fund, and hardware vendors. The community would continue developing the OS independently, the Amiga IP association would review and eventually sell licenses to hardware vendors in order to sell new 'Amiga' branded products, while the no-profit Amiga fund should find money to help coders, pay bounties, in a few words be sure contributing coders won't starve.

Sixth. Setting new goals

Once we'll have all of this running, coders AND companies should set some goals for evoluition. It's clear our API is ancient and many OS structures would need a complete overhaul to become 'modern'. But once we'll have a clearer idea of who can make what, who'll pay, and what's the available budget, agreeing on a roadmap and getting to a shared result should be much easier.



That's all, obviously, strictly IMHO.