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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
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TrevorDick 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 1:33:08
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2004
Posts: 2636
From: Wellington

@iggy

Quote:
And this has to be the first time I've seen a public statement from Trevor that made me feel like doing a face palm.


An that's why I usually don't usually comment in public because there is always the possibility of statements being misunderstood, especially when English is not everyone's first language.

No one has been asked to pay twice for the RadeonHD graphics drivers or the updates (unless they are used on multiple systems...just Like MorphOS licences, though that is really a totally unrelated topic). I suppose the RadeonHD version included in the ES package should have been called something different as it's mainly related to Warp3D Nova improvements.

A-EON has always had a discounted upgrade path for its software. I think this issue is possible more about the lack of a response but as this is the first time I've heard about this issue I will have to reserve judgement.

Anyone is free to contact me directly through contact(at)a-eon.com and they will get a response.

TrevorD

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iggy 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 1:51:31
#22 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@TrevorDick

Trevor, I gathered this was a misinterpretation.
So my apologies.
And yes, the comparison with MorphOS isn't particularly fair.
I think paying Hans de Ruiter makes imminent sense.

He is incredibly talented, and I've benefited by is online OpenGL tutorials immensely.
Besides, we've exchanged PMs and I just like the guy.

Having this work financed has helped accelerate development and provided superior performing video subsystems.

I DO think that airing all this on a forum is unfortunate, as you and Matt have always made yourselves available (far more so than would ever occur in a larger market).
SO, IF the poster had made a patient, polite inquiry...

As I've stated in my posts, you and your distributors have gone out of their way to reduce the impact that the cost of these developments have on new buyers.
If existing users want to upgrade, sure they will incur a cost.
There appears to be a misunderstanding here of how that is handled.

SO, my big mouth will bow out of this, a little less gracefully than if I'd just STFU.

Edit - I did find this part confusing "Keeping everything under the carpet is what makes America great again".
Hey, how'd we get invited to the bashing party?
We earn enough flack on our own than you very much (and to the best of my knowledge Aeon is a British enterprise).

Last edited by iggy on 25-Jul-2017 at 02:10 AM.
Last edited by iggy on 25-Jul-2017 at 01:52 AM.

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TrevorDick 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 2:36:06
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2004
Posts: 2636
From: Wellington

@iggy

Quote:
" what makes America great again"


Wait to you see the photos from A-EON DevCon 2 thanks to Steven Solie's little present!

My visit report will be in the next edition of AmigaFuture Magazine.

TrevorD

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number6 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 2:39:38
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9889
From: In the village

@TrevorDick

Quote:
4. Hans de Ruiter is under almost full time contract to A-EON to continuously work on and develop the AmigaOS graphics system.


I hope people understand what a departure that is from the AmigaOne partners' and Amiga Inc.'s methodology for "taking care of developers."
I'll be discreet and not link to the unpaid developers threads....

Not to take away from your DevCon2 report, but I'm sure people would also like a writeup of what occurred at the Hyperion yearly meeting in Belgium 1 week after DevCon2. I wonder who drew the short straw on doing THAT writeup?

#6

Last edited by number6 on 25-Jul-2017 at 02:48 AM.

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Raziel 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 6:34:10
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2004
Posts: 2429
From: A haunted Castle somewhere in the Bavarian Mountains

@K-L

Quote:

And would you pay for un updated Radeon HD driver (without the Enhace Software Pack)?

Yes, of course, because development needs funding and if it's an integral part of the system it needs to be supported.

But...

First, selling this integral part as a full standalone version first (Paying customer)
and then
second, putting this standalone version into two different packages of Enhancer (where the PLUS version seems to be the ONLY one bound to get further free updates and the STANDARD version doesn't)
and then
thrid, selling this package again (even with "discount") is low.

Especially because it wasn't communicated anywhere when those Enhancer hit the stores.

The same situation is with CANDI.
Not an integral part, but the same way i probably have to go there.

I bought the full version when it became avaialable.
There was a free update which consisted of two new themes.

My bug reports vanished to somewhere, even being a crash/freeze.

Then they put CANDI into Enhancer.
The next updates one could only get if paid a second time for Enhancer.

And i probably have to pay for the PLUS edition again to get further updates (maybe even the fix for my crash/freeze).

So, same story.

The only thing that was communicated was that buying Enhancer will get me free updates to the stuff inside, no word about the need to have to buy PLUS to REALLY get free updates.


@AmigaKit

Well, this was a learning process...i'll never buy anything from AmigaKit again when it reaches the stores...maybe i get the stuff when they sort out their business plan, maybe i'll buy it second-hand, but probably not.


Hope you can deal with having one customer less...



@TrevorDick

Hi Bessie, i'm Moorray

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lylehaze 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 7:19:02
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1108
From: On the Florida - Georgia border.

@TrevorDick

Quote:
put a bell around my neck and call me Bessie .....

If I had the Sketchblock skills, you could count on it.

After reading my post back, I think perhaps I should not post so soon after getting home from work. I try to be a bit more positive. Some days it's not easy.

I do not speak on behalf of anyone but me. Some times I am just a grumpy old man. I'm working on that.


I recently took the time to visit a vintage computer festival in the Atlanta area. I saw some amazing bits of history. I saw a Tandy model 1, level 2 computer that literally brought a tear to my eye (my first computer). I saw all the classic and vintage stuff you might imagine. And I knew that I'm not really in to _using_ vintage computers.

Then I think about my Amigas. My first A1000, pushing 320x200 through a little 12" color TV. Swapping floppies to get it booted up and ready to run. Hand-built MIDI interfaces and borrowed synthesizers so I could get enough voices to make some music. Eventually saving up enough to get a 10 Meg hard drive.

Those days were great, but I have no interest in going back to those days.

I'm writing this now on a solid cherry keyboard, graphics at 1920x1080 on a 37" television.
There are no "Commodore" branded devices nearby.
I've got high res, full color, fast (enough) ethernet, standard case, power supplies and cables, and performance that is really quite satisfying. Hard drives, flash drives, USB MIDI gear all around me. It all just works. and I didn't even have to file two pins off a DB-25 connector to make it fit.

This took a lot of work by a lot of talented people. AmigaOS and NG Amigas are my choice, and I support them because I want to see them continue to grow.

It's 3AM and I'm going back to bed.

Goodnight, Bessie.

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broadblues 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 11:22:26
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4132
From: Portsmouth England

@Raziel

Quote:


The only thing that was communicated was that buying Enhancer will get me free updates to the stuff inside, no word about the need to have to buy PLUS to REALLY get free updates.



But this isn't the case though is it? The Standard version has had all the same updates for common enhancer components as the Plus version, and the it has had seperate updates to the radeon 1.x series of driver.


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Spectre660 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 11:42:14
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3569
From: Unknown

@broadblues

I think that the solution could be to incorporate and upgrade function from Standard Enhancer to the plus version. The basic difference in the price between the two is about US$11.05 .

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eliyahu 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 13:42:32
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1729
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@thread

while i can't speak for others, i can explain my confusion over the product offering path A-EON has taken in this case, since i've also been effected by this to some degree. over time i've purchased radeon HD v1, which was replaced with radeon HD v2. no biggie, companies charge for major updates.

but then radeon HD got wrapped into enhancer and the updates to the radeon HD v2 branch dried up. so in order to get updates to a driver, one now has to purchase a large bundle of software, some of which a person might not want. OK, again, fair enough. except that A-EON *still* offers radeon HD v1 and v2 for sale outside of enhancer and doesn't say that if you want the most recent version, or updates, you need to buy enhancer.

another instance of this: i purchased multiviewer. then it was wrapped into enhancer, so to get updates, again, same story. now i need enhancer. multiedit, same story. both of which are, again, still being offered separately, but which do not receive updates.

and then there's CANDI, which i purchased, too. and is now in enhancer. but that got an update that the enhancer version *didn't.* it's all terribly confusing.

it would be great if the enhancer components that are sold discreetly also got the same updates as the enhancer versions. or that only the enhancer versions receive updates and it's noted that if you buy components separately, updates aren't included. but it just needs to be consistent. because purchasing something and then having to purchase it yet again along with stuff you may or may not want just to get updates, well, it isn't ideal.

i get developers need to be paid, and i'm happy with what i have. i just think people having to pay three times, including for software they may not want, just for 2D graphics driver updates is a bit dear when you look at it from the outside.

-- eliyahu

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kolla 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 14:38:22
#30 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 689
From: Trondheim, Norway

@eliyahu

There's an old saying in Tennessee, I know it's in Texas, it's probably in Tennessee, that says... uhm...

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iggy 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 15:05:02
#31 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@kolla

?...says what?

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broadblues 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 15:15:16
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4132
From: Portsmouth England

@eliyahu

Quote:

it would be great if the enhancer components that are sold discreetly also got the same updates as the enhancer versions.


I would tend to agree with this. Version numbers should be adjusted (and advertised) to make it clear when the enhancer version is sigificant upgrade, and so there might be an updates ceiling for either version.

Thinking of MultiViewer in particular here:

The seperatly sold version is the 1,x version (as far as I understand) and the Enhancer version is the 2.x version with thumbnailing, now exif support and quite a few more extra features.

Both versions got the critical fix for the memory trash when displaying text datatype and other non pictures.

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pavlor 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 15:19:58
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8486
From: Unknown

@Raziel

I somewhat share your point of view. This is bad marketing policy on the A-Eon side, they should charge for major updates (like compositing video, new 3D drivers), not for minor ones. I never got why drivers are exclusively in software bundle with other applications. However, I understand money is needed for further development.

Quote:
My bug reports vanished to somewhere, even being a crash/freeze.


Well, similar story... PPaint still isn´t useable in WinUAE/OS4, but at least it is not part of the Enhancer package.

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amigakit 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 15:23:19
#34 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2164
From: www.amigakit.com

@eliyahu

Quote:
i just think people having to pay three times


RadeonHD v1.0 driver was released four years ago in 2013. It was subsequently updated seven times to version 1.7 and offered as a FREE upgrade to those that paid for the v1 driver and to those that had the driver free with the AmigaOne X1000 system.

RadeonHD v2.4 was released a year later in 2014 (three years ago). It yielded six updates to v2.10, once again FREE for those that paid for the updated driver. Existing users of the v1 driver had a very small upgrade price to pay to update to v2.x from v1.x and received a years worth of free updates to v2.10 released in 2015.

All these free upgrades were of course released to users above and beyond what was advertised or promised in marketing, news releases or in the product specification. I think this is more than fair given the amount of updates were provided over the years for free to registered users. Free software development of course cannot indefinitely continue because developers need to be paid for their hard work.

The new versions of RadeonHD driver in the Enhancer Software v1.3 Standard (v1.21) and Plus (v2.22) are specifically designed to function with the Warp3D Nova system on the Enhancer Software and constistute a part of the cost of the Enhancer Software package. Closer integration of the software will continue. The development cost is of course significant over the years. There have been three major updates to Enhancer Software and all have been provided FREE of charge to registered users.

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eliyahu 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 15:24:03
#35 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1729
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@broadblues

Quote:
I would tend to agree with this. Version numbers should be adjusted (and advertised) to make it clear when the enhancer version is sigificant upgrade, and so there might be an updates ceiling for either version.

exactly. and if receiving the same updates as the builds included with enhancer aren't viable for commercial reasons, then at least make the update (or lack of update) policy clear for people purchasing the discreet components rather than the enhancer package.

i can get how folks could get frustrated. a little clearer communication and consistency with update policy would really help going forward.

-- eliyahu

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eliyahu 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 15:31:50
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1729
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@amigakit

thanks for chiming in! we all understand that your development efforts cost money, and customers can't expect free updates forever. the issue is just the notion that people who purchased a single product -- multiviewer, radeon HD, etc. -- who had been receiving updates, now must purchase enhancer to get further updates. which is fine -- if the goal is from now on everyone who wants these tools/components need to purchase enhancer. it's just that there was one policy and then it changed without any announcement.

it would be helpful (IMO, anyway) if you could add text to the descriptions on amistore for the discreet components that any future updates to those components will only be found in enhancer going forward so everyone is on the same page. i'm just looking for clarity on the overall plan is on what is supported with updates, what will be in future, and what won't be in future. that way people can make better purchasing decisions.

-- eliyahu

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Rob 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 15:56:42
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5587
From: S.Wales

@amigakit

I assume that at some point Enhancer will hit version 2 and will be a paid update. I'll be more than happy to pay an upgrade fee if it comes with a video decoding API and a UVD driver for my video card.

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amigakit 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 15:59:55
#38 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2164
From: www.amigakit.com

@eliyahu

I am sorry, from your response, I don't think you fully understood what I said above.

1) the products listed on Amistore are delivered exactly as described and advertised. For example: if you buy RadeonHD v2.10 you will get exactly that. Anything extra is a bonus. This is clear from Amistore and historic news releases and no upgrade policy has been published.

2) you wrote that customers have paid three times for the same product. This is not correct as I explained above and may mislead casual readers of this thread. The products are different and sometimes there is a minimal upgrade fee when major development changes occur in the sub versions. We have not expected users to pay full price for three drivers. Discount has been offered.

3) the software in question spans four years. It is not reasonable or normal in this industry to pay once in 2013 and expect free updates to continue for fours years down the line.

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eliyahu 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 16:06:58
#39 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1729
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@amigakit

Quote:
1) the products listed on Amistore are delivered exactly as described and advertised. For example: if you buy RadeonHD v2.10 you will get exactly that. Anything extra is a bonus. This is clear from Amistore and historic news releases and no upgrade policy has been published.

i stand corrected. then we should assume that any product we purchase is just for that version and nothing else. if there are any additional updates assume they are paid updates; anything freely released beyond what is purchased should be considered a bonus and not necessarily something that will happen again.

Quote:
2) you wrote that customers have paid three times for the same product. This is not correct as I explained above and may mislead casual readers of this thread. The products are different and sometimes there is a minimal upgrade fee when major development changes occur in the sub versions. We have not expected users to pay full price for three drivers. Discount has been offered.

i stand corrected again.

Quote:
3) the software in question spans four years. It is not reasonable or normal in this industry to pay once in 2013 and expect free updates to continue for fours years down the line.

since you're the only major firm left in the amiga NG world, i'll have to take your word for it.

i appreciate your clarifying A-EON's position on this. it was what i was expecting, but just wanted it public. thanks.

-- eliyahu

Last edited by eliyahu on 25-Jul-2017 at 06:11 PM.

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kolla 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 16:56:43
#40 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 689
From: Trondheim, Norway

@iggy

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