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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 16:17:27
#181 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@Srtest


the machine that spectre use for made the bechmark was a PowerMac G5 2ghz whit The NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra with 64 MB of DDR SDRAM occupies an 8X AGP Pro slot.


My machines now have
The quad have a radeonhd r5 230 2gb ,
the x5000 have a radeonhd 6570 2gb

The 6570 is more powerful than the r5

Last edited by tlosm on 14-Sep-2017 at 04:21 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 14-Sep-2017 at 04:20 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 14-Sep-2017 at 04:19 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 14-Sep-2017 at 04:19 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 16:25:17
#182 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@SACC-dude

Quote:
Now I understand... buyers remorse turned to anger

nope if was like this i will just sell it

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 16:31:09
#183 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@outrun1978

Quote:
Without knowing the full facts, how do we know that say the people who got a beta tester board with extra stuff or for less money are not having to so something in return for A-eon.


for sure you dont know all the fact ... because if you know you will understand why my motto is : no more a-eon (and amigakit) product in my home.

if was like this explain to me why for have a refund of my extra paid money was vital for they i have to sign nda? where nda sign mean i cant sell my board to no one, only to they and only the board with 10% less than the "official prize" minus the vat.

and note no one say to me that i will pay more the board compared "the new beta testers"

edit: why after starting all this look like all my reported issue start to become hear from some one? ... yes they make me nervous and really much for all did what they made this last two years.

Last edited by tlosm on 14-Sep-2017 at 04:56 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 14-Sep-2017 at 04:52 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 14-Sep-2017 at 04:35 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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Hypex 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 17:07:28
#184 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8722
From: Greensborough, Australia

@tlosm

Quote:
be happy with it ... and i suggest you to buy a g5 quad for see what is linux on a powerpc.


You choose Ubuntu as people seem to like it. First impressions is crap. It looks like it is booting then drops to this basic screen with the the tiniest font ever that even fairies in the garden would have trouble finding. You then find out it doesn't even have a selectable boot menu and you must type in what you want by hand and press the return key. You step back just to check you're not using a C64 with a tiny monitor but some how there is a Mac in front of you.

You thought the Mac was a user friendly computer with a GUI but the Linux CD left you with the impression it is a piece of archaic junk. The only easy thing was holding down C for Compact. So it starts to boot and there is a sign of color. Oh Macs do have colour now. But it still looks rather basic. Some dots are lighting up on screen.

After a while the boot stops and you get some error about cutting scissors. Or something like that. And you cannot get it to even reach a desktop. So you give up and wonder what possessed someone to come up with such an annoying boot CD that didn't even boot. You'd seen Linux boot on a PC 20 years ago and until now thought the BIOS and kernel loading was a bit naff but the auto boot and selectable text menus was by comparison the most modern and easy thing out.

Last edited by Hypex on 15-Sep-2017 at 05:06 PM.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 17:12:03
#185 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@Hypex

ubuntu is a toy distro good for casual users.
i use fedora now that run in full ppc64. but for use it is need know good how linux work because was need to rebuild some parts because vsx optimized.
soon i will try debian ppc64

Last edited by tlosm on 14-Sep-2017 at 05:13 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 17:35:57
#186 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

@tlosm

I still use Lubuntu/LXQt which makes matters more complicated as Qt moves further into opengl land and unfortunatly that means issues with a software renderer.

This brings me to the beginning of this thread: how do you benchmark a logon manager like sddm that uses opengl? then you have a desktop manager and a window manager and all those "layers" work through different protocols and extensions and some use Qt while other work through a non-qt window manager while implementing Wayland instead of X which I think is broken for us. This is exactly the base issue of your comparison between the G5 and X5k on linux. Where does the vram plays a role and when the ram when some parts use a software solution and some a hardware one? If I put the hd5870 (a.k.a nuclear reactor) back in the A1X1k and launch FF, I should use gfx acceleration but it doesn't because it sucks for whatever reason. Can you really benchmark such a do-it-yourself desktop - when you don't know what is happening underneath? On aos4.1u1 it's so simple - either compositing works or it doesn't. Either you launch an app/game that uses an amiga implementaion of certain parts of opengl and vulkan, or you don't.

Last edited by Srtest on 14-Sep-2017 at 05:39 PM.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 18:00:55
#187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@Srtest

LxQt inst installed on my machine .
it was available on mate 17.04 and it not support ppc any more i dont use distro that dont gave me the opportunity to install and upgrade tools. i use last working distro as 16.10.
i use lightdm, and compiz as compositor in mate .
wayland protocol is not working good on BE (endianess color issue), same is the Vulkan we cant test because SI endiness in mesa never fixed that made glamor egl crash when egl-si are invoked.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 18:21:42
#188 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

@tlosm

Exactly! glamor which is the modern 2d acceleration on linux distros is broken on big endian.
So not only that the 3d acceleration only works on NI cards (and older), the basic 2d acceleration which uses the 3d hardware doesn't work well for us. If it does it works a certain generic implemetation that relates to the G5 much more than any other power processor/system, which of course makes its optimization highly questionable.

So, a broken glamor needs to power a sluggish wayland on big endian if you can even get it to work. All while other more popular hardware solutions gets all sorts of optimizations, decoders and efficiant new implementations. This is a world of choice? of prolifiration of computing? of open source and free software? I looks more and more like the non-profit version of the same thing you find in the commercial world, where money is replaced with what's currently popular. Where would linux be without all those different processors and architectures? on a hobbyist platform... maybe the G5 in 2017

* All the LXQt packages one needs: https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=lxqt&searchon=names&suite=all§ion=all
** Use at your own risk

Last edited by Srtest on 14-Sep-2017 at 06:23 PM.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 18:43:32
#189 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@Srtest

i can say for sure one thing and this is really sure not because found only by me (the other cant write because confidential)
the real ram speed with 4 + 4 ram modules of X5000/20 is 2gb/s best 900 mbs worst
the real ram speed with 4 + 4 ram modules of P5040 is near 4 gb/s 2 gb/s worst

The real ram speed on g5 quad with 4 x 4 2gb modules is near 10gb/s with altivec on and 7 Gbs without altivec.
Ram speed is much important for everything and slow ram made everything bad.
The distros are not optimized for G5 but for G3 it mean on G5 are not optimized too like are for X5000


edit:pratically the best for this machine x5000 is have 4+4 or more ram modules for have better ram speed but are not sufficient for have a really responsive system.
Example firefox inst optimized for nothing and dont use video acceleration and no compositing on quad is really fast in browsing on x5000 the page scorlling is really slow compared the quad. this is because the slow ram.

Last edited by tlosm on 14-Sep-2017 at 06:51 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 14-Sep-2017 at 06:49 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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bennymee 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 19:20:56
#190 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 348
From: Netherlands

@tlosm

Thank you for the info. I wonder, how come that the the dual and quad X5000 differ so much in ramspeed?

Both have dual channel DDR3, only the P5040 has a slightly better memory performance 1666 vs 1333 MT/s of the P5020.


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BigD 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 19:50:45
#191 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4142
From: UK

@tlosm

Quote:
the real ram speed with 4 + 4 ram modules of X5000/20 is 2gb/s best 900 mbs worst the real ram speed with 4 + 4 ram modules of P5040 is near 4 gb/s 2 gb/s worst


That is worrying and might well make a few people hold out for the P5040 version

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Pixar Animation Studios

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 19:51:39
#192 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@bennymee

1600 for 5040 .
stream memory test take the advantage of the smp
plus the 5040 is 200mhz more faster for every core than 5020

Last edited by tlosm on 14-Sep-2017 at 07:54 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 19:55:17
#193 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@BigD

Quote:
That is worrying and might well make a few people hold out for the P5040 version


it will gave for sure the best amigaos experience and morphos too

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 21:17:26
#194 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

@tlosm

Funny as I always seem to be involved in double posts

_____


Firefox is an epitome of your flawed comparison.

The X1k here doesn't have the issues you keep talking about regarding the X5k. How slower is it compared to the X5k? I guess not that slower (even if everything is like you expect it to be). FF still works bad here. Why not Gimp? is it so lightweight and optimized? Isn't Libreoffice this big suite just like the Mozilla suite? I can name others but it's not about name dropping, rather about daily uses.

You know, I'm a Mozilla fanboy. It got to me and changed the way I used the web with its community inspired addons. To me it had that amiga spirit. For years now it has gotten a criticism after a criticism, some of it is justified and well known. If you take FF and it works better on a brute force comparison with the G5, it still doesn't say much about what it can and can't do on the X1k (forget the X5k for a moment). Every game and app have hardware specifications and kind of an evaluation of needed resources. When the gfx driver worked for me on NI so I was able to use it quite well (considering), why didn't it affected a browser which claims to use it? You know which crap software enjoys brute force? Windows. I guess Windows will work better on the G5 compared to the X1k and X5k. So what. Does it mean those lack power? only in the mind of this group of people who live in that bubble of people wanting more power when in fact they are leaving the desktop computer behind and are moving to underpowered computer phones and smart tvs, which enjoy all the resources in the world to be optimized while also using open source software as if they are poor. That is because they don't know Amiga they look for whatever is different than what's mediocre. It seems to me that while you can say how something like gimp and libreoffice work and when they are using the memory and gfx hardware, you can't say so about FF. It's complicated, especially for us so there isn't a simple solution. Not on linux or with a possible port for AOS4.1.

You say people didn't listen to you. Well I did, now you try it.

Last edited by Srtest on 14-Sep-2017 at 09:21 PM.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 21:31:52
#195 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@Srtest

firefox use smp if it is setup inside the config but smp work from ff48 to up.
the best version on be stable and with less issue is firefox 47.
the worst of firefox on be it use only the cpu for render the graphic no compositing on linux ppc , no compositing for firefox. the only thing that use the acceleration on firefox are 360 vr videos othre use the cpu for render.

about gimp i dont think it is optimized for use the altivec because as i say before all programs are buil as generic ppc for run on g3. rebuild it by your self on x1000 with simd options enabled . do the same for lib png and for lib jpeg turbo and you will have a better gimp


_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 21:33:49
#196 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

forget webgl in firefox use mesa acceleration too but with wrong colors :P

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 22:51:33
#197 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

@tlosm

Man, there isn't a trick I haven't researched on FF. I used electrolisys since before it was made public (concurrent processes) via a hidden experimental setting. Tried to enable and disable any form of acceleration and layer acceleration. The only place it made a difference was with a NI card and online video (like you said). Some, like multiple processes helped, but it was marginal at best. I'm using the latest FF quite well as long as I don't use the default context menu (a huge bug there for ppc). Again, when I say quite well i speak in relative terms. At the core the performance is unacceptable, not compared to a different system but to browsing on aos4.1 and most other linux programs. Linux + FF + Power at its core is something I wouldn't recommend, with a gfx driver or without. When I need something on linux when I can't return to the aos side, I switch to Qupzilla. It doesn't have html5 for us but it browses a lot faster and can actually play some videos with a software renderer and correct colors.

P.S

I don't regret one bit switching to SI from NI. the hd5870 was a great value for money card that lasted a decade. It was also as loud, hot and slow to start (booting on the X1k is a lot faster after the switch to the R9 270) as a world war 2 tractor. I'll wait for a SI driver and don't forget that linux unlike the aos4.1 offers a level of dynamic power management that lowers my temprature by 10 degrees celcius. Where I live and in summer time, that's a big deal

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 15-Sep-2017 0:54:15
#198 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@Srtest

Quote:
Where I live and in summer time, that's a big deal

i can understand hight climatic temperature ... this summer we had 47 here.
About si onlinux i dont think we will never see this on Be, there is no intention to fix from mesa amd developers. now the world is LE only.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 15-Sep-2017 15:03:19
#199 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

It's kind of mind-boggling how linux is this system which strives to be so lightweight and kernel based yet the moment you actually try to implement something it becomes this tank that needs all that power to function (less responsivelly than aos I might add). How its user base always strives to be "lightweight", yet keeps wanting more and more features and distros that make everything great right from the start. It's the built-in paradox of that system. At least for us because of the combination of a user-based approach and the mix between developers and knowledgable users, we have I think a deeper understanding of what is light yet can get things done.

From the ideals pov of linux being a driving force of open source and free software, you can see how it is an image not something with a strong base. They drop hardware that brought them to the dance when it becomes less popular, depending on what's happening in the commerical consumer world. They depend on the same developers who make it almost impossible for small companies and communities to even exist. I mean, what is free in software if everyhing requires intel inside and its endianess? It feels like the geek version of the same thing you find on the pc.

I don't hate linux it's just always a secondary preference in offering completeness and open source support. If the X1k didn't offer it I probably wouldn't have got it considering I can't just switch to my native language on aos. In terms of performane of getting things done - I just can't seperate it from the WAY I want to do things and that's the amiga way. Having a preference and actually saying it doesn't make you wrong just less objective. I like it that way and I see how they call it "not being rational". Spending 20 years on that other platform is so rational because for some it is rational to suffer and spend money on that. I guess the X5k will have the 2-way approach of both aos and morph, and alongside everyone else's ability to also use aros, you have quite a different way of being "light" and doing stuff the way you want it with different hardware. I will stop here as I don't want to get into that same cultural argument in amigaland.

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wawa 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 15-Sep-2017 16:18:55
#200 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5726
From: Unknown

@Srtest

isnt that linux is simply a kernel and whatever you have, especially in user space, on top of it, is simply a choice of applications? i constantly hear claims that linux is "bloated" but you have also a very lightweight distros, it is mostly a matter of choice and the functionality one desires. sure, you dont have passing messages by pointers, but if you had shared memory like amiga-like systems, you couldnt have memory protection at the same time. you trade responsiveness for overall stability.

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