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      /  Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 14:13:04
#301 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

We don't need to go there. Luigi's a good guy who contributed and helped A-eon's Christian (aka Xeno man) with the linux side of things and linux does contribute to the completeness level of current crop A1s. I hope he gets over his dissapointment. There are more significant areas to see and look for improvements and I hope they further optimize the machine either via the firmware/bios, or via specific efficiant utilizations just as I look forward to what's next for the gfx driver on the aos side.

Funny how 3 years ago the X1k that got all the heat and one would think upon coming here was a doomsday machine to end amiga, now is used as a battering ram against the X5k for not living up ot its standards.

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K-L 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 14:28:22
#302 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1133
From: Oullins, France

@outrun1978

Quote:
No AmigaOS 4.1 PPC system has ever claimed to be the fastest PowerPC system (IBM servers are).
.

Read again

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 16:11:13
#303 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@K-L

Quote:
o AmigaOS 4.1 PPC system has ever claimed to be the fastest PowerPC system (IBM servers are).


... G5 is 2005 PowerPC (that i have)machine and is fastest than new X5000/40 that i have.
and for sure the ibm powerstation 970MP and the Yellowdog Workstation 970MP are more faster than it too. (2005/2006) machines.

if hyperion was did the AmigaOs for G5 machines like Mos team did ... for sure i will have the fastest AmigaOs machine.
But Vanilotto "loose his laptop" and the history was different

Last edited by tlosm on 24-Sep-2017 at 04:53 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 24-Sep-2017 at 04:16 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 24-Sep-2017 at 04:15 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 24-Sep-2017 at 04:12 PM.

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A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
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AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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pavlor 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 17:30:42
#304 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8486
From: Unknown

@tlosm

There is no MorphOS port for 970MP based Macs yet.

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Signal 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 17:40:25
#305 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 520
From: USA

@Srtest

Quote:

Srtest wrote:
@Signal

Oh yes go against amd and nvidia LOL. Wanna go against creative as well? even creative are not going against creative nowdays... You need to pick and choose.

I did not know AMD, nvidia, Creative, Realtec, and others refuse to sell chips to other companies. No wonder custom computers are no longer available. Silly me.
Quote:

The old school R-E-A-L amiga developers said as much about the combination between custom or "genuine" hardware and available standards or as Haynie said it: "we would have definitelly used usb and stuff like that". You can even go along the lines of saying that the super-custom mode of the amiga was what killed it and the speed in which the market that saw its birth, changed and didn't translate back to another c-o-m-p-u-t-i-n-g model not a business one.

I don't think I said I wanted a new old Amiga.
Quote:

So yeah, the romance was gone but the user base was still there. Today you have to grow it from scratch as there are not a lot of crazies like me that actually follow through on their dreams (at least in one aspect). Most people crave for nostalgia if you wanna talk about a certain busines model.

Key words 'user base WAS still there.'

I am probably all wrong, and that is OK. What is being produced today is the best anybody could do.
Especially with closed minds, and a shrinking customer base. Oops, I mean buyer base.

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 18:51:50
#306 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

@Signal

Why is it always a zero sum game? your comment was interesting to me so I responded with my own view. If you read carfully I don't think you're totally wrong as it is more of a complex matter. You go native you lose your market reach, you go compatible you lose your uniqeness. We can attest to that because one of the main efforts of amigaland is to hold hands with both present and past. We have the experience we need to apply it and indeed open our minds. I for one had great products after leaving the amiga scene like the matrox millenium so there is always a possibility of producing something special. I craved a special sound card and so I got the Jolie@ precisely because of that. I really want an all-around emulation card that can use Xena/fpga/raspberry type hardware to bring the classic and the A1 together. I think someone once posted something like that on this forum.

Last edited by Srtest on 24-Sep-2017 at 07:10 PM.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 19:23:53
#307 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@pavlor

i know :-/

_________________
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A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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Beans 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 19:35:16
#308 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 441
From: Bear Delaware USA

@tlosm

The P1022 soc has exactly SIX Serdes lanes that drive the NIC, SATA, and PCI-E interfaces.
I'd be surprised if the PCI-E video cardslot has even the four PCI-E lanes that the X5000 video card slot does.
But, even if it does, they are not Gen2 PCI-E lanes like the X5000, so Tabor will have HALF the bandwidth for video cards that the X5000 has.

Or in other words, one quarter of the bandwidth provided by a late 2005 PowerMac G5 (11,2).
Progress, eh?
And I don't want to let you guys know what my 11,2 cost me (I got a real bargain), but you should be able to pick up two of those for the price of one Tabor motherboard.
No OS4 support, but if you intend to run Linux, its a no-brainer.

@pavlor

Quote:
There is no MorphOS port for 970MP based Macs yet.


wrong (yet again).

The port exists and some of the developers are using it.
It has two downsides.
First, no driver for the onboard NIC, so you need to use a network card (but like that issue has ever stopped AmigaOne users ).
Second, and far more important, there is no cooling fan speed control, so the cooling fans run at full speed.

Ever heard a G5 with its cooling fans ramped up?
I'd have to place that in another room and run longer extensions for the accessories, I mean its
REALLY intolerably, obnoxiously loud.

But, with development, those issues could be solved. After all, fan speed control is part of the AGP G5 port.
Implementing it on the 11,2 can't be too different.

Last edited by Beans on 25-Sep-2017 at 12:22 PM.
Last edited by Beans on 24-Sep-2017 at 07:53 PM.
Last edited by Beans on 24-Sep-2017 at 07:53 PM.

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Signal 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 19:53:25
#309 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 520
From: USA

@Srtest

Quote:

Srtest wrote:
@Signal

Why is it always a zero sum game? your comment was interesting to me so I responded with my own view. If you read carfully I don't think you're totally wrong as it is more of a complex matter. You go native you lose your market reach, you go compatible you lose your uniqeness. We can attest to that because one of the main efforts of amigaland is to hold hands with both present and past. We have the experience we need to apply it and indeed open our minds. I for one had great products after leaving the amiga scene like the matrox millenium so there is always a possibility of producing something special. I craved a special sound card and so I got the Jolie@ precisely because of that. I really want an all-around emulation card that can use Xena/fpga/raspberry type hardware to bring the classic and the A1 together. I think someone once posted something like that on this forum.


So I guess my proposal is compatible uniqueness. At least from my POV. Especially since we lack a horde of developers. Take for instance a sound card. Find the most versatial chip and build a card around it for all Amigas. It could have MIDI in the chip as does the Emu chips, or a separate carrier to which a MIDI chip could be inserted.

If I really cared what other platforms were doing........... I would not be here.

A RPi3 on a Xorro card. (eyebrows going up and down.)

Too bad Hyperion killed the Local Bus interface with FE up1. No matter really since there is no practical protoboard for the slot anyway. Meh.

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Beans 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 20:00:39
#310 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 441
From: Bear Delaware USA

@Signal

Well, the P50XX cpus have an I2C interface, and I think the P1022 does as well (I'm not sure about the PA6T in the X1000, but its probably there).

There are a tons of sound chips that will interface with that.
It wouldn't eat up PCI-E lanes, and I think you're right that a standardized sound interface amongst all the AmigaOnes would be beneficial.

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Hans 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 0:44:22
#311 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4800
From: New Zealand

@Beans

Quote:

Beans wrote:
@Spectre660

Why is the test for the X5000 done without DMA?

Because nobody has written the graphics library's DMA routines for the X5000 yet (they use the CPU's DMA engines, and NOT the graphics card's).

Quote:
The copy to vram is quite a bit higher than the SAM460, but the other figures are only on par, or slightly slower.

The Sam460ex uses DMA for WritePixelArray & ReadPixelArray.

Quote:
As the bandwidth of the video slot is higher, the figures of the X5000 should be higher than this, which would leave me to conclude that DMA is a significant issue.

DMA is the only way to get high throughput.

Quote:
BTW - The X1000 figures are petty outstanding. Copying to and from vram is a bit slow, but those figures for MemCopy and Write/read pixel array? Wow!

That's because DMA is used there.

However, we're currently using CPU-based transfers to submit commands to the GPU, so the X5000 actually gets better performance with some Warp3D stuff (e.g., the Cow3D benchmark). You really need to be careful with jumping to conclusions based on the benchmarks...

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 25-Sep-2017 at 12:51 AM.

_________________
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Beans 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 2:41:36
#312 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 441
From: Bear Delaware USA

@Hans

Thanks Hans,
I knew video benchmark figures could be improved and the the two low number functions would be improved by processor DMA (a little confused by your reference to the video card, since DMA is a function of the cpu, but I figured you just thought I was uninformed).

Tabor worries me, because the PCI-e slot has half the bandwidth of the X5000, and is going to perform worse. Its best likely performance would match the SAM460, but it might be even lower.

Right now, I wish the Samantha was still available, it has a PCI-E X1 slot, and a PCI slot that Tabor doesn't have, addition to the PCI-E X4 video card slot. And a slightly better fpu.

Still, I think the X5000's 'teething issues' can be sorted out. Video card performance WILL improve, and the memory benchmarks just don't jive with the figures Freescale quote for maximum memory throughput.
I don't know what the issue is yet, I'm leaning toward firmware, but I'm sure those numbers can be brought up.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 5:18:51
#313 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@Beans

the only one where i sow freescale ram speed is the T2080 where they declare up to Up to 2.1 GT/s speed.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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Rob 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 6:52:45
#314 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5588
From: S.Wales

@Beans

Quote:
Tabor worries me, because the PCI-e slot has half the bandwidth of the X5000


I don't think a 1.2Ghz e500mc is going to saturate the bus.

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Beans 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 12:37:43
#315 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 441
From: Bear Delaware USA

@tlosm

Well, I'm donating to the laptop project, so thanks for the reference, but in the data sheets they quote speeds for at the P50XXs, essential they are the same as the Jedec specs for DDR3.

As an aside, the T10XX series can use DDR4, they also have 1/3 more SerDes lanes than the P1022 operating at twice the frequency. Thats 267% better I/O bandwidth.

So, Tabor? Again, its P1022 cpu is a mistake.

A similar board with a T1042 cpu would have twice the cores (64 bit cores not 32), a proper fpu, and almost 3 times the I/O bandwidth. All from a processor only slightly more expensive than the P1022.
And one with a direct relationship to the P50XX cpus used in the X5000. Which probably would have lowered porting time, as well as eliminating the FPU issue.

But, I guess if you've got 1000 boards built, you're going to sell them.

Last edited by Beans on 25-Sep-2017 at 12:39 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 15:05:28
#316 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8722
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Beans

Quote:
But, I guess if you've got 1000 boards built, you're going to sell them.


The XE was done in batches of 1,000. IIRC. By now they should be making batches of 10,000. The boards are better made, less mistakes on board. So if it cost about the same to make a bigger batch that would be the one to go for. Then they could sell them to us way cheaper. And more people could afford an OS4 machine. Not that they'd want too, but they could. I'll stop typing crap now.

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 15:32:58
#317 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

@Beans

Again with that power mantra or should I say again, Jimbo?

The only thing that matters is the market and when I say market I talk about what is happening today which for some is a market and for others a monopoly or duopoly which followed evilcorp footsteps. Comparing this to the market which gave birth to the amiga is comparing two different things in themselves. The time of the amiga @ atari wars was actually a time when someone could start on the same level as you are (not moving to newer fields and making them a market like the smartphone business) and give it his best shot at innovation (from all aspects not just cpu/horsepower - just like the old classical amiga approach to everything that is computing). The result of the last 10-15 years is not people moving to cheaper hardware but people moving away from personal computers. I. an amiga advocate actually tried to convince my closed minded sister in law to talk my nephew into going for a pc instead of a ps4. In the meantime what excites this young teenager is an apple store and an iphone.

Last edited by Srtest on 25-Sep-2017 at 03:53 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 25-Sep-2017 at 03:34 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 15:54:13
#318 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4142
From: UK

@Srtest

Quote:
what excites this young teenager is an apple store and an iphone


Apple are doing the current generation a massive disservice by dumbing down their computers with rubbish GPUs, no OpenGL and no useable ports at a time when the young just want to tweet and MyFace rubbish about what they had for tea

They should be incentivising creativity not chasing the casual consumerist hipster all the time

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 16:07:00
#319 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

@BigD

He is actually a smart, parctical and positive teenager that grows into a young man. I can totally get why that attracts him. It is the same vibe that created a gadget loving community here in the 80's that were receptive to commodore and amiga when everyone else knew nothing other than the 4 colors ibm.

You don't blame the people, especially the young guys and girls. They are supposed to come and become just another pc-type drone audience like the masses that preseeded them? they like it better with their phones or playing games with the xbox and wii that require no 1-hour installations (so you work for your computer?). They are actualy looking forward to what makes sense to them in the broader daily usage not what they are told they should use because of the way things are. The powerful corps that rule the consumer world will adhere to their needs not the other way around.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 16:46:28
#320 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2357
From: Amiga land

@Beans

I suggest to some one directly involved in the open ppc laptop to switch to P40xx series that are e6500 but have 24 serdes lanes,T2080 is really poor in lanes. (16) ... the must T4240 :-L

https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/fact-sheet/T4240T4160FS.pdf

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A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32; A4k.
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
AmigaOne X5000/40 16GB

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