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BigD 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 25-Nov-2017 11:54:56
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@fishy_fis

Quote:
Long story short, please leave your belief in magical fairies out of things. Some people find religion offensive.


Are you for real?! Christmas IS about Jesus and if you don't want to acknowledge him at all then you are better off spending Christmas in a cave prodding an Amoeba in a Petri dish trying to get it to evolve into a magical flying reindeer than spouting your anti-Christian venom on this forum!

I also find 'religion' offensive in that it is a poor attempt for man to work his way into favour from God and an impossible attempt to fill the void that is left when people reject Yaweh and Jesus. The truth of Jesus' birth (and death and resurrection) into this world (as God on Earth) was to give us hope DESPITE our failings (and hence whitewash out completely the sin that otherwise condemns us to hell without a faith in Jesus and the forgiveness found in his sacrifice on the cross).

I agree that there IS something offensive about Jesus' name to unbelievers because otherwise western culture wouldn't have tried to replace him with a Catholic Saint reincarnated as the main seasonal brand of the Coca-Cola company! Christmas is NOTHING without Jesus. I can suggest what we should all start doing in preparation for 'the season' and that's to read Mark's Gospel and actually try and get our heads around what the message of good news and hope that the birth, death and most importantly resurrection of Jesus is! It's a message of victory over death and yes it is far more inspiring than the Justice League version seemingly rewritten for a comic book and fantasy obsessed world and yet ironically we live in a world that has ceased to believe in miracles!

... or alternatively just get fat, get into debt and drink lots of Coke, the choice is yours!

Last edited by BigD on 25-Nov-2017 at 12:42 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 25-Nov-2017 at 12:39 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 25-Nov-2017 at 12:04 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 25-Nov-2017 at 11:57 AM.

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BigD 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 25-Nov-2017 12:00:40
#22 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@Thread

That being said since it's only one month to go today I'll relent and change my avatar Goodwill to all men even the 'fishy' ones

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bison 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 25-Nov-2017 15:52:45
#23 ]
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Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@klx300r

OK, Thanksgiving is behind us in the US now, so Mitchy has put her hat on.

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Hypex 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 25-Nov-2017 15:52:49
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@fishy_fis

Quote:
Trust me, to some Christmas has no religious baring


My friend tells me that Christmas is being replaced by something called Festive. Hmm. Have a Happy Festive or a Merry Festive just doesn't sound right.

Quote:
I personally loathe religion, and believe this God character to be a horrible, vouyeristic, sadistic perverted entity. Lucifer is a far better man.


I didn't know God was a man. Except when He is represented as Jesus. So Lucifer who was kicked out of heaven because he was a brat and caused people to be bad is a better man? Each to their own.

Quote:
As always the 25th date is plagiarized from other religions.


I've never seen it documented anywhere what date Jesus was born on. Did they forget to log down the date? The 25th, IIRC, was some Pagan festival, to which until today has just stuck. It's been explained to me like the Queens birthday, that the date celebrated is not her actual birthday, but one date was standardised on. The latest claim on the Christ date says he was born on September 11 now.

Quote:
Father sacrificing his only begotten son, water to wine, walking on water, the birthdate,.... all copied from religions that came well before them.


I hear that a bit, but how do you prove any of it? These writings go back thousands of years ago for one thing. So I usually take it with a grain of salt. The common one is it was copied from Pagans and nature worshippers, who I'm told were the first religion. But I'm never showed any proof of such.

Quote:
Some people find religion offensive.


Such as atheists?

Some people also group all religions together I have found. But that is unscientific, since not all religions are the same. Yet if you hate something then it's easy to find fault with it and stick to that theme. I hate those damned PCs and find their backwards memory techniques to be totally evil and only put up with them because I must. We know playing record backwards was Satantic. That little endian memory order is the spawn of the devil I tells ya.

Last edited by Hypex on 25-Nov-2017 at 03:56 PM.

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Valiant 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 25-Nov-2017 18:30:36
#25 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2003
Posts: 1109
From: West of Eden, VT USA

@Hypex

Quote:
by Hypex on 25-Nov-2017 8:52:49

@fishy_fis

Quote:
Trust me, to some Christmas has no religious baring


My friend tells me that Christmas is being replaced by something called Festive. Hmm. Have a Happy Festive or a Merry Festive just doesn't sound right.


I think he means Festivus .

Last edited by Valiant on 25-Nov-2017 at 06:31 PM.

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Valiant 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 25-Nov-2017 18:35:44
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2003
Posts: 1109
From: West of Eden, VT USA

@Hypex

by Hypex on 25-Nov-2017 8:52:49

@fishy_fis

Quote:
Trust me, to some Christmas has no religious baring


My friend tells me that Christmas is being replaced by something called Festive. Hmm. Have a Happy Festive or a Merry Festive just doesn't sound right.

I think he means Festivus .

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jorit2 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 25-Nov-2017 19:04:17
#27 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 243
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

The truth of Jesus' birth (and death and resurrection) into this world (as God on Earth) was to give us hope DESPITE our failings


Yet those believing this do not give us much hope, do they ?

Quote:

if you don't want to acknowledge him at all then you are better off spending Christmas in a cave prodding an Amoeba in a Petri dish trying to get it to evolve into a magical flying reindeer


Nice bunch, those believers ...

Evert

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BigD 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 25-Nov-2017 21:43:57
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@jorit2

Quote:
Nice bunch, those believers ...


What because we poke fun at flying reindeers and evolution?! Worse things are broadcast on the BBC every day and called journalism! I do think that it's a big issue that Christians try to fudge these two issues when bringing up their children. Evolution and Creation teachings are not compatible and teaching kids in believing households that Santa is real is also storing up trouble if you're then telling them that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. If the parents are lying about Santa what else are they lying about? Some Christians are hypocrites and so mix secular, pagan and Biblical beliefs and then still hope to be salt and light in the world. I guess choosing the 25th December was to try and Christianise the Roman Saturnalia festival. I guess Santa was the devil's way of mocking this particular attempt to Christianise festivals (it's even an anagram of Satan so seems quite blatant). Tying the whole thing to a Catholic saint who actually died in Turkey was simply the icing on the Christmas Cake

Last edited by BigD on 25-Nov-2017 at 09:45 PM.

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jorit2 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 25-Nov-2017 22:06:59
#29 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 243
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

and teaching kids in believing households that Santa is real is also storing up trouble if you're then telling them that Jesus died on the cross for their sins.


Well, both are fairy tales so I don't see the problem ?

Evert

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BigD 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 26-Nov-2017 0:28:03
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@jorit2

I guess you're one of those 'post-truth' type of guys? There is more than enough evidence for Jesus' life, death and resurrection if you took the time to research it. In comparison the Coca-Cola swilling fat man that can break the sound barrier on a sleigh driven by magical reindeer was INVENTED by the Coca-Cola to sell fizzy pop based loosely on St Nicholas. I suppose you're happier not engaging with the facts but that doesn't mean your right.

Neither are fairy tales; Santa the clever marketing stunt (based on a do-gooder, St Nicholas) or Jesus the historically recorded person that claimed to be God hence inviting the wrath of the Pharisees and Sadducees but ultimately God's wrath as a sacrificial substitute to allow us to have a way back to a relationship with God. How else do you explain the growth of Christianity from a position of utter despair at the death of Jesus to its current global church? If you wanted to start a cult based on a fairy tale I don't think you'd start with the death of your leader! It was only because he rose again that we remember him. Defeating death itself will have that effect!

Last edited by BigD on 26-Nov-2017 at 12:42 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 26-Nov-2017 at 12:42 AM.

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jorit2 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 26-Nov-2017 2:01:00
#31 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 243
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

I guess you're one of those 'post-truth' type of guys?


Well, the previous time we discussed, you "accused" of being a Muslim, so we're making progress

And speaking of Islam ... Going from a small community to a large church: by that same argument you could argue that Islam is the one and only true religion.
According to Wikipedia there seem to be more Christians than Muslims in the world, but something tells me that a lot of the people that are tallied as being Christians are non believers.
I'm one of those, baptised and all, but a non-believer, and I know quite a few like me. I've yet to encounter a non-believing muslim though. But If there are 2.4 billion christians, that means there's still about 4.5 billion non christians.

Post-truth ... well I know it's fashionable to use that "post-truth"-term.
Before we move on: Let's consider the definition of post-truth from the Oxford dictionary: "Relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief."

By that definition, the post-truth accusation, would be somewhat of a pot/kettle/black-accusation, don't you think ?
For starters, I'm not really trying to shape public opinion here, I'm not constantly bringing up God
And as much as you would like to believe that you hold the truth, sorry to burst your bubble, but it's only a personal belief.
I happen to think you're mistaken. I happen to think I'm more or less right, I sure hope so, I happen to believe what I believe, and the more I think about it, cause yes, we non-believers also like to know where we come from, what the sense of all this is, the more I realize that a lot of the ideas in the bible, ideas about lie and death, ... simply do not make sense (if I don't find them evil).

I personally don't care whether you believe or not, but I do take issue with a mentality like you express here (and that's why I keep reacting so vehemently, it really pisses me off):

Quote:

... was to give us hope DESPITE our failings (and hence whitewash out completely the sin that otherwise condemns us to hell without a faith in Jesus and the forgiveness found in his sacrifice on the cross ...


I interpret it as if ... It does imply that a life without faith in Jesus leads to sin, that we're pitiful creatures since we don't find forgiveness in his sacrifice on the cross etc. I find it all a tad condescending.

And .. well I don't need forgiveness, I'm responsible for my own actions, if I screw up, I'll have to bear the consequences. It's almost like relying on forgiveness gives you a free ticket to screwing up, I find my attitude a little more responsible.
I don't need some bloke in the skies to tell me what's right or not, and I certainly don't need anyone who claims to have found some wisdom in a some old book to tell me. It is, lo and behold, perfectly possible, easy even, fun even, to be a good man, in this world, in this life.
I also don't need some bloke in the skies or an idea about an afterlife to give a sense to this life, it is, lo and behold, perfectly possible, easy even, fun even, to lead a rewarding life, one that appears to make some sense, in this world, in this life.

Evert

Last edited by jorit2 on 26-Nov-2017 at 11:19 AM.
Last edited by jorit2 on 26-Nov-2017 at 02:18 AM.

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Overflow 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 26-Nov-2017 7:58:40
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1628
From: Norway

One of my best friends from High School is a Pentecostal Church member, and he basically told me that the evidence of God is all around us, and I need to open up and accept God, and he will reveal himself.
I consider myself a very open person in general, and have thru the years had good friends that are jewish, hindu, non-believer, christian and I dont judge a person on his/her spiritual ideas, but their actions.

As you might have guessed, God has yet to reveal himself to me.
I know some people find the term agnostic cowardly; "Just say you are an atheist and be done with it!".
But that would be arrogant of me. I cant prove God doesnt exists, and as such I merely say that I see no evidence of his existance, but I are open to the possibility should he reveal himself.

One of my favorite intellectuals are Chris Hedges, a Presbyterian minister, but he very rarely/never(?) uses religion as a tool for convincing you/the audience of the validity of morality.
He bases the construct of society on mutual respect, and if you come to that perspective with a christian, jewish, muslim,*insert any religion* or non-belief/humanistic methodology, then fine.

Many defend their belief with the New Testament, by more or less rejecting the uncomfortable events in the Old Testament. But thats rejecting Jesus's own word.

John 10:35 "The Scripture cannot be broken. Matthew 15:3 Scripture as "the commandment of God" and Mark 7:13 "Word of God". Also its indicated by Jesus that Scripture is indestructible Matthew 5:18 "Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished".

And the list goes on. Jesus refered to the Old Testement extensively. Its fine tho, but when people point to the gruesome aspects of other religions texts, Christians has a tendency to forget or reject the Old Testament.

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klx300r 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 26-Nov-2017 20:18:32
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3833
From: Toronto, Canada

looking good so far

@ fishy_fis

thanks !

@BigD, jorit2, Overflow

please read post 18 on this thread

Last edited by klx300r on 26-Nov-2017 at 08:20 PM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 2:01:21
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@BigD

Quote:
Are you for real?! Christmas IS about Jesus and if you don't want to acknowledge him at all then you are better off spending Christmas in a cave prodding an Amoeba in a Petri dish trying to get it to evolve into a magical flying reindeer than spouting your anti-Christian venom on this forum!


Seriously?
See this is a great example of how stupid religion makes some people.
Christmas has no religious baring to me, so your knee jerk reaction is so freaking over the top and stupid that it warrants that sort of response?
Come on, you're not really that ridiculous are you?

I say Christmas has no religious baring to me and you spew some crap about Amoeba/Petri dishes and magical reindeer. Yes, that's obviously the natural progression and a completely rational jump to make. It's also completely rational and sane to then go on and spew more garbage, under the bizarre assumption that people are stereotypes who follow marketting. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that sort of blind following of what is put in front of me beyond all logic is reserved for religion followers. Makes sense I guess that you'd think that, but most of us apply a bit of thought to things rather than blindly following.

Also, very strange that you'd draw some sort of comparison between a belief in Santa and a belief in Jesus. Seriously, why is everything all about extremes with you? It's obviously a very different thing to believe in Santa for a couple of weeks, for a handful of years than it is to give your life up day in day out following "orders" about how to live.

Anyway, the point, which was not surprisingly missed was to demonstrate that religious discussions have no place here. I was tired of hearing your religious ramblings so decided to show you how spewing religious beliefs can annoy people.
You missed it completely however and instead just went on to re-enforce my point, oblivious to the fact, thinking you was arguing a point while supporting mine.

I don't care what you think of me, or my opinions, etc., but please at least tell me it's clear? Did it sink in yet?

Last edited by fishy_fis on 27-Nov-2017 at 02:08 AM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 2:23:43
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@hypex

According to the stories Lucifer was cast out for being too loyal.
He refused to put man above his father.

Whether or not that is the behaviour of a brat, or whether it was the father who was an asshole is up to an individual. I personally think he got a rough deal, and that God is a bit of a git
You never hear the stories from neutral or non believers though so over the years theyve managed to market Lucifer negatively.
Im not a satanist or anything silly like that, but to me it seems the actions of God are far worse than those of Lucifer.

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bison 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 2:40:14
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@Overflow

Quote:
One of my best friends from High School is a Pentecostal Church member, and he basically told me that the evidence of God is all around us, and I need to open up and accept God, and he will reveal himself.

My guess is that your friend was alluding to Romans 1:20.

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Hypex 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 13:07:31
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Valiant

Quote:
I think he means Festivus .


That sounds like a a Roman governor.

Interesting history there.

He also sent me a picture. Of Festival Cake.

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Hypex 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 13:34:02
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@fishy_fis

Quote:
According to the stories Lucifer was cast out for being too loyal. He refused to put man above his father.


I haven't seen the bible say much about Lucfier being cast out. Genesis starts at the physical universe. And from the rest it talks about Lucifer, who was the most beautiful and wise angel, but was taken by his own pride and wanted to usurp God. So I havent't heard of Lucifer being too loyal. Where is this description from?

Quote:
You never hear the stories from neutral or non believers though so over the years theyve managed to market Lucifer negatively.


Well he is the core baddie in the bible.

Quote:
Im not a satanist or anything silly like that, but to me it seems the actions of God are far worse than those of Lucifer.


There's that saying called playing God, but people don't seem to like it when God carries out his right to act as God with His own creation, at least as told in the bible. In any case, we tend to have a lose definition at times of who is innocent, and some of those bible people sounded anything but innocent.

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WolfpackN64 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 13:50:25
#39 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Oct-2016
Posts: 300
From: Unknown

@fishy_fis

Your first post was kind of harsh though. Christmas is first and formost a religious holiday. You can rage against that or just don't celebrate it. You say religion can infuriate people, well, your atheďsm infuriates others.

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klx300r 
Re: tis the season!
Posted on 28-Nov-2017 5:26:58
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3833
From: Toronto, Canada

cough cough..guess i gave a premature thanks to fishy..sigh

@ all

all please read post 18 on this thread before starting any religious debate on this thread...if you still feel the need to make such a post please start a 'never ending religous thread' else where ok

Last edited by klx300r on 28-Nov-2017 at 05:28 AM.
Last edited by klx300r on 28-Nov-2017 at 05:27 AM.

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