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Juzz 
Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 26-Nov-2017 23:08:36
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 31-Mar-2003
Posts: 232
From: Husum, Denmark

*RANT ON*
Apparantly you need to be a developer in order to get a useable machine out of your AmigaOS 4.1 FE Update 1 computer.
Why is it impossible for our developers to include a "Howto install" document?
There's a "Howto compile" and then loads of files and no explanations.
Once you do have an installer - none of the required dependencies are included.
Even the *bog standard* "Installation Utility" burps up: libz.so.1 not found and python25.so not found and then instantly dies and kills the system along with itself.

This is an aggravating and very poor user experience.

Many archives comes with both clib2 and newlib objects - for the uninitiated that's confusing, why would you include both?

I DO NOT want to scour the net for instructions on multiple forums in order to get the knowledge of how to get the app or lib I just downloaded to run.

For instance smtube - doesn't work from package, so I have to go into comments on the OS4Depot page.
"Downgrade to old libfontconfig" - great how do I do that?
"Install libxml2" - yup downloaded package and it has the symptoms described above: only build instructions (no I don't want to do THAT), both clib2 and newlib objects are included and no hint as to which to install (dumbing it down here for example) - which files do I use and where do I put it?
Links to a forum thread on a forumsite I usually don't use - plus you have to read through several pages to see what other people have experienced.

This is worse than even the most user-hostile Linux distro.
How the h.ll did we get to this point?

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K-L 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 26-Nov-2017 23:11:10
#2 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1142
From: Oullins, France

@Juzz

Regarding SmTube, it's because of Qt and the latest Update of AmigaOS 4.1.

zzd10h cannot do anything about this unfortunately

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Juzz 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 26-Nov-2017 23:34:52
#3 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 31-Mar-2003
Posts: 232
From: Husum, Denmark

@K-L

Yeah, we certainly don't want him to pollute his package with a document that explains the end-user how to get a functioning installation out of his program now that he has made the effort of compiling and uploading it.

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Hans 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 0:05:44
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4812
From: New Zealand

@Juzz

What are you trying to install?

Quote:
"Install libxml2" - yup downloaded package and it has the symptoms described above: only build instructions (no I don't want to do THAT), both clib2 and newlib objects are included and no hint as to which to install (dumbing it down here for example) - which files do I use and where do I put it?

I just had a look at the libxml2 archive, and it looks like it only contains developer files (i.e., things that a developer would use to write software using libxml2). That's why it contains clib2 & newlib files. Notice that they're all in a sub-directory called "SDK" (a.k.a., Software Development Kit). As a user you shouldn't need to install this stuff.

Hans

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Juzz 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 0:18:19
#5 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 31-Mar-2003
Posts: 232
From: Husum, Denmark

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@Juzz

What are you trying to install?
smtube

Quote:

Quote:
"Install libxml2" - yup downloaded package and it has the symptoms described above: only build instructions (no I don't want to do THAT), both clib2 and newlib objects are included and no hint as to which to install (dumbing it down here for example) - which files do I use and where do I put it?

I just had a look at the libxml2 archive, and it looks like it only contains developer files (i.e., things that a developer would use to write software using libxml2). That's why it contains clib2 & newlib files. Notice that they're all in a sub-directory called "SDK" (a.k.a., Software Development Kit). As a user you shouldn't need to install this stuff.

Hans

Soooo... How do I install libxml2 as a user? Seeing as it is a requirement for smtube.

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Hans 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 0:48:58
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4812
From: New Zealand

@Juzz

Quote:

Juzz wrote:
@Hans

Soooo... How do I install libxml2 as a user? Seeing as it is a requirement for smtube.

Not sure, sorry (don't use it or smtube myself). My best guess would be to copy SDK/local/newlib/lib/libxml2.so.11 to SOBJS:, and then execute the following in a console/shell window:
cd SOBJS:
MakeLink libxml2.so libxml2.so.11 SOFT

You're right that an installer should set this all up for you.

Hans


EDIT: Forgot to say where to copy the libxml2.so.11 file to.

Last edited by Hans on 27-Nov-2017 at 01:22 AM.

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zzd10h 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 6:23:27
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-May-2012
Posts: 1046
From: Unknown

@Juzz

"This is worse than even the most user-hostile Linux distro.
How the h.ll did we get to this point?"

Maybe because you got this program for free ?
Maybe because I did this port on my spare time ?


"Yeah, we certainly don't want him to pollute his package with a document that explains the end-user how to get a functioning installation"

Nevertheless, because FE Update 1 broke something, I did a sort of documentation, here :

http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?post_id=105939#forumpost105939

But before to complain about the "complexity" of Qt programs and/or the lack of documentation, remember that you have the possibility :

1) to don't use smtube if it's too much complex...

2) or at least to search for your problems / post your questions about your smtube problem on the dedicated amigans.net thread. 337 posts for a 3,5 years old thread, smtube seems to be supported, no ?

http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?start=0&topic_id=6564&viewmode=&order=ASC&type=&mode=0

3) to thanks Alfkill for his wonderful work on porting the whole Qt framework for free on our obscure platform

Last edited by zzd10h on 27-Nov-2017 at 06:55 AM.

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Juzz 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 12:51:51
#8 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 31-Mar-2003
Posts: 232
From: Husum, Denmark

@zzd10h

What I'm saying is this:
YOU knew that the package wouldn't work straight out of UnArc - and yet YOU didn't update the readme file nor did you include a text file explaining to the enduser - this won't work untill you do this, this and this and for more information go take a look at this forum thread "link".

Nooo the information about that is in the comments section to the package....
The information about it is put up in in the comments section back in february and the latest package is from june.

But then again I can just not use it if it doesn't work from the package and the fix is nowhere to be found in neither the readme nor in a textfile in the package.

The other thing is - yes, there are other packages that are ports and they just dump EVERYTHING in the package - but leave no notice of in order to use copy this file to this location.

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zzd10h 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 15:58:53
#9 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-May-2012
Posts: 1046
From: Unknown

@Juzz

"YOU knew that the package wouldn't work straight out of UnArc"
It worked out of the box before FE Upd1, but it's not the problem...


Me, what I'm saying is this:
YOU, you cannot demand something to somebody in a so rude manner especially for a free program.
If you don't want to post a question or read a thread where the solution is, good for me, never mind, but why a hobbyist "dev" will have to waste his time for a guy like you ? Because you demand it ?

"yes, there are other packages that are ports and they just dump EVERYTHING in the package"
OK, use these perfect packages and delete SMTube.
Never mind, SMTube works very well on my system (and I guess on others systems too) !

It's crazy. Hopefully, you are the only guy that complained like a customer for a free program...

Back to my real life.

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pavlor 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 16:18:06
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8552
From: Unknown

@zzd10h

What about simple OS4depot readme update with link to thread you posted here?

I agree with OP it may be a little bit confusing for new users. smTube is one of the best applications ever released for OS4 (really well done!) and probably one of the first programs new users try on OS4.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 16:54:01
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@Juzz

Quote:
Nooo the information about that is in the comments section to the package....
The information about it is put up in in the comments section back in february and the latest package is from june.


Developer can't admin the comment section on OS4Depot, we do not get notification about new comments there, and we do not check if there are new comments there.

Quote:
The other thing is - yes, there are other packages that are ports and they just dump EVERYTHING in the package - but leave no notice of in order to use copy this file to this location.


It's not as simple, you can't just copy files into it correct location, there might files there before that will be over written, is the file newer or older the one installed before, is always safe to replace older file with newer one?

No... So you need backup routine so that original files can be restored if some thing brakes.

a perfect installation also need to make changes to binary files called prefs, this files are documented, but no guaranty is the same from one version of AmigaOS to another.

Not everything can be bundled the license of software like bundle might prohibit bundling; software with other license might not be included in package of different license and so on. In general its lot of work checking copyrights.

So you need to be able to download packages that are under difference license.

In general, this complicated and way most developers don't waste time on it.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Nov-2017 at 04:57 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Nov-2017 at 04:55 PM.

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clusteruk 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 18:45:21
#12 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2008
Posts: 1427
From: Marston Moretaine, England

Rant on

Developers are the best resource the Amiga community has and usually developers are not so good at documentation, perhaps users can spend less time ranting and more time volunteering to help in writing user documentation.

Rant off.


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wawa 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 19:41:07
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5747
From: Unknown

@clusteruk

i dont think so.

users wouldnt mostly even know how and what needs to be properly documented. based on my observation, tryng to help with amiga oriented development along the years.

Last edited by wawa on 27-Nov-2017 at 07:43 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 27-Nov-2017 at 07:43 PM.

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PR 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 19:51:41
#14 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1803
From: Suomi-Finland Perkele

Really fair point.

Imagined if making some kind of progarms and releasing them and for a reward getting a complaint.

Hopefully all ok + some of our animations didn't make people Angry in AmigaFuture CD quite a long time ago..

Concentrate. Getting back in OS4 when it's done.



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whose 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 20:06:35
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Posts: 888
From: Germany

@clusteruk

Most users are simply not able to write a proper documentation because they lack the knowledge of how to install a ported program and which other parts are needed to install it _properly_.

I understand developers at least a little bit. They do some porting work, hate it to hassle with documentation and then a user comes along with a rant. Rather frustrating... as long as the developer doesn´t take the users POV.

It´s even more frustrating for a user to get a program which use isn´t documented (or not documented well), which needs a lot of other parts to work (at least the user hopes so) and information about this is scattered across the internet. It´s sometimes at least as time consuming as doing the port.

My POV is: if a developer wants to get some reward from the users, make your product please the users! (and if you don´t care about the users, ignore the rants!)

We´re at Amiga here, not Linux. No man party, AmigaGuide party instead. Install shouldn´t need BOFH knowledge, it should work with a few mouse clicks instead.

Best install is still "just copy it where you like it".

If a program isn´t suitable for this, make at least a documentation of all steps needed AND dependencies (and where to get the other parts).

It´s not that hard, really

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Hans 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 21:20:44
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4812
From: New Zealand

@whose

Quote:

whose wrote:
...

It´s not that hard, really

It's harder than you think. Dependencies are very easy to overlook (e.g., libxml2 happens to already be on my system), and we have no tool that logs all the dependencies. Added to that, our tools for writing installers are very primitive. I remember writing the RaeonHD driver installer, and it was a painful process. By contrast, the installer generator I used on Windows made life so much easier...

It can also be hard to respond well when a user vents their frustration over something that's not working. You need to be able to remain calm, and fix their problem. It's well worth doing, and users are generally grateful if you help them, even when they've been ranting.

Hans


P.S., Any developer up for making a tool to generate installers? Or, at maybe a tool that can build a list of dependencies?

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Raziel 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 21:55:33
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2004
Posts: 2440
From: A haunted Castle somewhere in the Bavarian Mountains

@Hans

Quote:

Any developer up for making a tool to generate installers?


There already is one out there for years: InstallerGen!!!

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 22:50:52
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@Raziel

I'm not sure it up to the task really.
backups, checking date of files, so file installation.

Getting complaints about lacking install scripts, better then being blamed stopping AmigaOS from booting, or corrupting AmigaOS installation

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Nov-2017 at 10:55 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Nov-2017 at 10:53 PM.

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Juzz 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 23:10:10
#19 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 31-Mar-2003
Posts: 232
From: Husum, Denmark

@zzd10h

Take my rant for what it is.
I just happened to be trying to install smtube when I reached a frustration point enough to post here.

My point is this:

YES! I know this is an enthusiast OS and some assembly *IS* required!
But give me the directions somewhere easily accessible - and here I am referring to the readme file on the filehost OR in a text file in the archive itself.
DO NOT just put it in the comments section and "get back to your real life".

I will go to the singing bush and recite am intricate rhyme in order to get the invisible man come and guide me for the rest of my endeavour - but plase make those instructions easily available.

This whole *secret handshake* *nudge nudge* *you know what to do* stuff is aggravating.
I'm not inclined to go to all the other NG machine owners in order to ask them separately: "Hey, did you get this app up and running? If so, how did you do it?"

YES! I came out rude in my OP, but I wanted to get some attention to this.
There are so many other archives just like for instance libxml2 - they have build instructions in the readme file - but no indication of copy this file to this directory to get it running.
From an end user standpoint this is very confusing.

And it's only because I was a beta tester back when the switch was made to newlib that *I* know that the newlib objects in those obscure packages are the object to use.
It can be very daunting for an end user to open an archive and the whole source code is there along with both clib2 objects and newlib objects.

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lylehaze 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 27-Nov-2017 23:52:42
#20 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1109
From: On the Florida - Georgia border.

The AmigaOS community is not as large as some others, but it is rich with people wiling to share their experience. We also have a few websites like this one where these people congregate.

If you're having trouble with something, a well worded question will very likely get one or more answers fairly quickly.

On the other hand..
We also have a fair number of "detractors". People who get their jollies by complaining about anything they can think of. The proliferation of these people has driven many developers towards LESS contact through public forums.

If you open with complaints, you might be percieved as one of these people. In this case the chances of getting help from the developer quickly approach zero.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that you are likely to get what you give, either good or bad.

Speaking only for myself, I am so freaking tired that I sometimes "disappear" for months on end. Some have tried my personal phone, now I have turned it off. Some have tried "messenger". It's been shut down as well.
There are a few who always know how to find me. The rest can wait until I feel like being social.

On the brighter side, the less time I spend dealing with humans, the more time I have for Amigas.

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