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Anonymous 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 14:35:25
# ]

0
0

@kas1e

Ah, finally...i always thought i'm the only one who doesn't like them.

All you said is so true.

If only Hyperion could let SObjs die a silent death...as they did with JXFS (and probably other thing i missed)...just don't produce anything with it anymore, stick to static linking and be with it...

One problem less we would have...

 
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broadblues 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 15:20:09
#42 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@Raziel

Quote:

@kas1e

Ah, finally...i always thought i'm the only one who doesn't like them.

All you said is so true.


Very little he said is true, particularly the part about convert sobjs into amiga style shared libraries, can be dont for *some* libraries, but not situations where you need to lnk data and c++ function calls.

Quote:

If only Hyperion could let SObjs die a silent death...as they did with JXFS (and probably other thing i missed)...just don't produce anything with it anymore, stick to static linking and be with it...

One problem less we would have...


Say good by to Python Perl Scheme and any other application / langage that needs them for correct and complete functionailty then (which means blender too)

Whilst I manage to create 'fake' dynamic loading of modules in my pre shared object port of perl, it could never work correctly, hence games based on perl SDL (Bubbles for exampe) needed a complete copy of perl SDL built into the binary part, to get round that I would have had to implment shared object syle load time linking.

There are two real , non predjudice based issue with sobjs.

Excesive usage. Ie situatins where no dynamic linking of modules is required, and statsic really would do.

The fact that our main repository of shared objects (os4depot) overwrites old versions, so when enthusiastic library porters keep updating the old versions get lost.

Really though I think the issue is exagerated, and most issue are resolved by asking a few questions on the forms.


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Hypex 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 15:42:05
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@broadblues

Quote:
You reliase that behind the package managers like apt-get is "huge" team of maintainers that set up and maintain a database which determines all the dependencies, this is what we lack and will likely never have no matter how sophostacted a package manager might be written.


Yes I do but compared to Linux AmigaOS is more simple. The main problem we have is those darn libraries and if not them then those nasty SObjects. Generally after locating and putting these in place software then starts to work.

Quote:
And package managers are no panacea anyway, I've had aptitude yank software that I needed of my linux system because I install something which had a dependency for a newer version of some library and the other software I needed didn't work with and hadn't been updated to the new version.


I've also seen it break down. Recently I had to fix a sources list. And I've seen software break that should have a fix but the fix only exists in the next distro version which doesn't help.

Quote:
AmiUpdate is not too bad as a simple manager, but would have solved the smtube isue where a dependency was pulled from beneath it so to speak


Yes I quite like it.

Quote:
Not once the library is opened and in memory. There can only be one version of given library.


In that case it should be in the system libs. Newest version usually. But I hate mixing third party libraries in there. Makes it hard to transfer a system and mixes it all up. And then you also need to install it there so futher complicates the process. However a custom LIBS usually has a custom library for that program. It does allow it to work out of the box. It was common for software to work this way with an installer if you wanted it all installed.

Quote:
SOBJS: are different, simply because the shared bit doesn't work, but remeber again it was system sobj changing that screwed up smtube / gt


They also work differently to a library and a program can't just throw up an error when it's missing. As the ELF loader takes care of it. But it can be confusing for the user. And most annoying when a program fails without any error at all.

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Hypex 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 15:53:38
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Tomppeli

Quote:
I released TopApp 6 years ago, which is easy way to install and uninstall software. It has functionality to handle extra dependencies as well. I started to modify it recently to get it to work in better way.


How is it we missed this? Was there a news item? Review in AF?

Quote:
I asked the community to help to add software entries into it but no action from anybody in 6 years. This community really doesn't know how to work together.


So they actually knew about this? It's easy enough for software to slip under the radar. Some promotion wouldn't go far astray.

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Signal 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 15:58:34
#45 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 664
From: USA

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Signal
[quote]
libraries can't be renamed, there is table inside library binary as well, that also has the name of that library, as well as program will be looking for xxxyy.library not ps_xxxyy.library, program will not be able to find it, even did have prefix like that, image having 2 or 10 programs with library in the program dir.


Okay, good.

So now I (we) know why it can not be done this way the question becomes...Which way could it be done?

If, like you mentioned, Quote:
The idea that library is in memory, is so that program don't need to access the slow HD, there are program that open and close library's as they run, like 1000 times in loop, this program be really slow, if they had to check if there was local progdir copy.
the OS could do this from the HD, then why not from a container in memory?

Maybe a in memory list of open libs with a counter mechanism that keeps track of open programs that use the lib and it only gets unloaded when the counter hits zero?

On the computers with large memory all the libs (hell, most every thing Amiga) could be resident in memory the same way we used to move the ROM to FastRam.

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broadblues 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 16:14:57
#46 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@Signal

Quote:

Maybe a in memory list of open libs with a counter mechanism that keeps track of open programs that use the lib and it only gets unloaded when the counter hits zero?


Errm guess what....


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Signal 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 16:22:34
#47 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 664
From: USA

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:
@Signal

Quote:

Maybe a in memory list of open libs with a counter mechanism that keeps track of open programs that use the lib and it only gets unloaded when the counter hits zero?


Errm guess what....

A lot of that info is either out of date on the wiki or not available to dumb ass users like me.
Most of all I'm not really a OS, software, kind of thinker. Just a

Back to my happy place.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 16:28:55
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Signal

Quote:
On the computers with large memory all the libs (hell, most every thing Amiga) could be resident in memory the same way we used to move the ROM to FastRam.


Well most important stuff is resident, the idea that library should be in RAM always is kind a tried in Windows Vista, I think it was slowest version of windows ever.

Problem with idea is load things that is not need is bad idea, and filling up memory with junk is bad idea, as well results in swapping and all kinds nasty effects, that might come back and bite you.

in any case with flat memory model, where programs kind limited memory protection, it lot more easy to detect poorly behaving programs, if protected empty spaces to hit.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 16:37:58
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Signal

Quote:
So now I (we) know why it can not be done this way the question becomes...Which way could it be done?


Sure it can be done, but changes to OS need to made.

But few issue will pop up, what to do when program have multiple choices to pick of possible library's, I bet program can be confused, and be hard to debug, you know what version of library a program uses anymore, so what library to debug. Imagine a program working fine one day, and the next day it crashes, because different library was picked. maybe a older version of library is opened, with bugs that was fixed in later version and so on.

I think you find that most new Amiga library versions are backwards compatible. you never need the older version of library.

(with few exception UTF8.library, RetroMode.library, when it under development and its not 100% complete and API is not yet written in stone. )

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Dec-2017 at 04:50 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Dec-2017 at 04:49 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-Dec-2017 at 04:40 PM.

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Signal 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 1-Dec-2017 18:27:13
#50 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 664
From: USA

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Signal

Quote:
So now I (we) know why it can not be done this way the question becomes...Which way could it be done?


Sure it can be done, but changes to OS need to made.

SNIP......

I think you find that most new Amiga library versions are backwards compatible. you never need the older version of library.

SNIP......
And yet it seems that sometimes, even if rare, the old lib will produce the desired results.

Okay, from an uneducated point of view, if there is resistance to attacking the problem from the status quo of the OS and libs, what about going after it with the programming side.

Change the programming model to include a user editable file where versions can be changed and this file is used by the program for version numbers instead of it being (maybe) included in the code or using the default.

Again,,, not a programmer.

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Hypex 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 2-Dec-2017 5:08:39
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I think you find that most new Amiga library versions are backwards compatible. you never need the older version of library.


That's how it is meant to be. Backwards compatibility is an Amiga standard in libraries. If there are any major API changes then the library needs to provide a backwards compatible base pointer.

OS4 uses interfaces so a library can have major changes but provide an older API if requested.

In any case there should be no problem with differing library versions on the system because it will open the first it finds. If a program needs an older version it should work. If it needs a newer version then that will fail but at this point the newest version should be stored in the system.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 2-Dec-2017 11:08:49
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Signal

Quote:
And yet it seems that sometimes, even if rare, the old lib will produce the desired results.


Developers then write newer version of library, that fixes any bugs, and older programs will be updated to use the newer library. if needed.

In any case its the user that has to make sure that they install correct version of the library.
if developer of library and program has done there job program will refuse to open if library versions are not correct.

Program will ask for at least version X, library should check if version X is supported, and return open library failed or open library success. this how it should work. and hopefully the developer has put in small message about failed to open library "name". so user wont need to run snoopdos, to debug the installation.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Dec-2017 at 11:09 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 2-Dec-2017 11:17:26
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Hypex

there might be changes in the structs as well in the order of function, and number of parameters needed and so on. and requirement of etch function to work, if things are not yet written in stone.

anyway keeping the old as you move foreword, be like making bloated library's whit lots useless junk that fill up memory for no good reason.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 2-Dec-2017 11:34:24
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Signal

SO objects are bit more confusing, because, multiple version of library library's might exist in "lib" folder of Linux/Unix system, you see files like important.so.1 important.so.2, important.so.3, important.so.4, and so on as well as important.so.

when program start it look for important.so.2 maybe, and link with that, as this point lib/important.so.2 might not actually exist but might soft link to important.so.3. Depending on what version is compatible or not. So you some time se soft links to newer version of the library and sometime not, so no way know if the .so can replace another or if incompatible. This also makes the installation process more complicated.
In general, I must say if the was install retune for .so that was standard, a way to tell if what version replace what, and if there was way for programs to download what they needed.

So maybe having multiple version of libraries is not as desirable as you might think, maybe the .library model that AmigaOS enforces is simpler and there easier to manage for every one user and developer a like. But sadly program ported from Linux has to many dependences to .so objects.

it is possible to list what dependence that are missing with ObjDump sadly it not part of the OS, I believe its in SDK, so the user will have problem verified there installation, with out installing the SDK.

the program them self pop with error message normally before crashing OS, I think there is problem with dynamic linking process.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Dec-2017 at 11:39 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Dec-2017 at 11:37 AM.

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amigang 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 2-Dec-2017 11:52:41
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 2018
From: Cheshire, England

As much as I dont agree with the tone and rant, I also have to agree, I'm not really a developer more an end user and there have been many, Many programs or features of a program that dont work and take far to long to hunt down the solution because there are berried within forum when I kinda of agree they should be in the read me area really.

the really great thing and best thing about the Amiga users however is that if you post an issue or problem and your nice about it usually someone will come along and help you out.

But it can be annoying when I just want a fun little day on my X1000 I spend too much time setting things up.

I remember trying to get the system to play a DVD film, ho the joys of going down the internet rabbit whole for that one.


The most annoying thing about all this however there was going to be a partial solution and have the most used app and all its libs/datatypes etc together in one nice package to download and enjoy on intuition base IIRC the starter package similar to Morphos starter package, however even though all libs and things in the package where free downloads a few developers stopped the whole thing as they didn't want there libs in the package or something like that, I remember it being the one time I thought some developer are dicks for not helping the end user and supporting a solution and little community effort to improve the environment for end users.


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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 2-Dec-2017 12:13:37
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@amigang

Quote:
however even though all libs and things in the package where free downloads a few developers stopped the whole thing as they didn't want there libs in the package or something like that, I remember it being the one time I thought some developer are dicks for not helping the end user and supporting a solution and little community effort to improve the environment for end users.


There are many motivations for this, and I bet there are as many motivations as there are developers.

* Control point of view, one things just float around the internet, you don't have control over it, updates, and fixes, user feedback, and so on, communication channel. user complain over things that has been replaced or fixed.

* Software license, lots of stuff is being ported over from Linux some with strict software license.

* Some people hoping to make money on their work. Maybe make it full time job.

* Ego, some developers have their own private collections.

* Support again / and bug reports, OS4Depot.net is not support friendly, comment section, does have categories, comments come in the wrong order, no bug tracker. Developers might won't host their own stuff due to this. Aminet has not even comments. That might be fine or not. For development of Mplayer I need all feed back for know what version of FFMPEG to use, and I need feedback of bugs, it be really annoying to work on normal forum, not know where page the bug was ported to, and I did not won't put my e-mail out publicly.

* Alpha / Beta files, that have bugs and not being tested 100%, should not be uploaded or replace working older versions, and should not be distributed before they are working. Developers don't like be harassed about bug they are already working on.

* Installation and packaging, making sure the software runs as developer intended it to run.

* Software Licence, might prohibit software being sold commercially, components of the software might be distributed with restrictions, and Software Licence is not some thing the developer who made AmigaOS version came up, it some that comes from original source that came from Linux or Open Source foundation or what ever, Communist / Nazi / Capitalist organisation. (I know many developer ignore the licences, or find workaround for this, developers might get sued, if they don't follow the guidelines.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Dec-2017 at 12:39 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Dec-2017 at 12:38 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Dec-2017 at 12:27 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Dec-2017 at 12:25 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Dec-2017 at 12:22 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Dec-2017 at 12:20 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 2-Dec-2017 12:17:11
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@amigang

Quote:
I remember trying to get the system to play a DVD film, ho the joys of going down the internet rabbit whole for that one.


and I spent like one months every day studying the mplayer source code to find where slow down in code was, and come up with fix for it, it was not easy. I came up with workaround. it came down to poorly written device driver in X1000, that did not take count of spinning media. device spin down and up the DVD, resulting slow playback. as well as seek time was horrible.

you might spent few days looking for problems on forums, but it was nothing compared to work I put into it.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Dec-2017 at 12:21 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Dec-2017 at 12:18 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Dec-2017 at 12:18 PM.

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Mr_Capehill 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 2-Dec-2017 12:17:16
#58 ]
Super Member
Joined: 15-Mar-2003
Posts: 1932
From: Yharnam

@Raziel

Static linkage might have some legal issues, if you consider GNU licenses. In many open source cases it's fine to link statically.

But then you are in a situation where you have to relink your app for each library fix...

Two sides of a coin.

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cgutjahr 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 2-Dec-2017 12:28:06
#59 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@broadblues
Quote:

Really though I think the issue is exagerated

It's not an issue introduced with sobjs, actually - we had the same problems with Amiga libraries or MUI classes. Anybody who ever used YAM betas (which you pretty much had to, back in my day) and occasionally had to run some other MUI software knows about 'mcc hell'.

Sobjs were touted as the next big thing, did get their own root level directory and assign (IIRC - it's been a while) and - due to the vast amount of Linux ports suddenly available - kind of flooded the Amiga ecosystem. I think that's what annoys people.

Quote:

You reliase that behind the package managers like apt-get is "huge" team of maintainers that set up and maintain a database which determines all the dependencies, this is what we lack and will likely never have no matter how sophostacted a package manager might be written.

MorphOS' Grunch is said to have worked quite well, at least for a while (I don't know its current status). With OS4, the focus moved from volunteer community work to paying for upgrades to 8 bit paint programs or buying somebody a Sam460 so he could do an OS4 skin

Quote:

And package managers are no panacea anyway,

Nothing is perfect. But in 99% of the cases, a package manager turns installing and updating software into a non-issue.

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Anonymous 
Re: Bleeping bleep developers!
Posted on 2-Dec-2017 12:47:18
# ]

0
0

@Mr_Capehill

I remember building one of the "official" ScummVM releases with SOBJS back then.

Morethan half of the time of building and packaging that project went into searching for and adding the needed SOBJS licences to the projects SOBJS drawer.

Many had differing licences, not just GNU or some derivate...hell

I remember that as being the most annoying task i ever had to do...nearly gave up on it

That, and gcc 5.x not supporting SOBJS builds (right now), made me switch back to static.

The whole situation is pretty foggy if you ask me

I do hope that some of the issues gets resolved somehow.

Why not use AmiUpdate for SOBJS?
One could easily merge a $VER: in there too (if that is possible with SOBJS, that is)

 
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