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BigD 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 18-Mar-2018 16:17:00
#81 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@Nimrod

Quote:
The Protestant churches are nothing more than petulant children who denied the authority of the pope because...


Because that Peter as the head of the church pass-me-down role was NEVER stipulated and definitely did not have that authority mandated by the Bible nor the Eastern Churches (RC church went it alone). Jesus is the intermediary to God not ANY other individual. Wesley, Calvin, Tyndale, Huss, Savonarola, Luther, Melancthon, Edward the Sixth, John Fox, Latimer and Ridley, Cranmer, Knox, Zwingli, Farel, Alasco, Gustaus Adolphus etc were the regular Christians God used in amazing ways during The Reformation to correct the heresies. Henry VIII was merely a puppet that God used as a blunt instrument to bring down Roman Catholicism in the UK but he was no Christian.

In many ways Billy Graham can take his place with the great reformers of The Reformation with his zeal to spread the The Gospel in an era of superstition and acceptance of 'New Age' religions (Yoga, Mindfulness etc) and idolatry of the false 'theories' of evolution and The Big Bang and Old Earth assumptions with no hard science attached.

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BrianK 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 18-Mar-2018 17:18:48
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@BigD

Quote:
The Gospel in an era of superstition and acceptance of 'New Age' religions (Yoga, Mindfulness etc) and idolatry of the false 'theories' of evolution and The Big Bang and Old Earth assumptions with no hard science attached

I hear your concern, however there's no value proven in selecting a 12th Century superstition over a 20th Century superstition. In the end they're all superstitions.

Idolatry? The worship of idols? Your understanding of history and science needs a bit of work. Also, I'd recommend reading some Popper and Kuhn. They have different ideas on how science works within society. Either make it very clear science is not idol based.

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Nimrod 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 18-Mar-2018 22:39:34
#83 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD

If by "Great reformers" you mean anti-Semitic, theofascist thugs then yes, Billy Graham stands alongside Adolf Hitler, Torquemada, and Martin Luther.
Here is a sample of the vitriol produced by Martin Luther for you to have wet dreams over.
"Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now, but that we have now given them their due reward.

Second, that all their books their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible, be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted. For they use all of these books to blaspheme the Son of God, that is, God the Father himself, Creator of heaven and earth, as was said above; and they will never use them differently.

Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country. They may do this in their own country or wherever they can without our being obliged to hear it or know it. The reason for this prohibition is that their praise, thanks, prayer, and doctrine are sheer blasphemy, cursing, and idolatry, because their heart and mouth call God the Father *Hebel Vorik* as they call his Son, our Lord Jesus, this. For as they name and honour the Son, thus they also name and honour the Father. It does not help them to use many fine words and to make much ado about the name of God. For we read, "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain" [Exodus.20:7]. Just as little did it avail their ancestors at the time of the kings of Israel that they bore God's name, yet called him Baal.

Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing.For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it, because their blasphemous and accursed mouth and heart call God's Son *Hebel Vorik,* and thus also call his Father that. He cannot and will not interpret this otherwise, just as we Christians too cannot interpret it otherwise, we who believe that however the Son is named and honoured thus also the Father is named and honoured. Therefore we must not consider the mouth of the Jews as worthy of uttering the name of God within our hearing. He who hears this name-from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away. And may no one be merciful and kind in this regard, for God's honour and the salvation of us all, including that of the Jews, are at stake!

Martin Luther "Von den Jüden und iren Lügen" Chapter 17

That rant is even more odious than Billy graham's comments about Jews made to Richard Milhouse Nixon. Comments that Graham denied right up until the White House tapes exposed him for the lying shitstain that he was.

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Nimrod 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 18-Mar-2018 23:08:30
#84 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. If enough evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, it moves to the next step - a theory - in the scientific method and becomes accepted as a valid explanation of a phenomenon.
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method, and repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation.

When Charles Darwin boarded HMS Beagle there were already many hypotheses concerning evolution but none offered a mechanism for selection. William Paley had proposed his "Watchmaker" hypothesis and Darwin was seeking evidence of the "watchmaker" basically as a good theologian Darwin was seeking the fingerprints of god. The evidence however led him to an entirely different conclusion but being honest Darwin abandoned his presuppositions and changed his conclusions to fit the evidence, not the evidence to fit his presuppositions.
The theory of evolution by means of natural selection is entirely evidence led, and like all scientific theories made predictions on which its validity could be assessed. His theory passed all tests, all predictions were demonstrated to be valid by a process known as peer review and other scientists added more detail to the original theory. Science has actually advanced since Darwin and the processes of evolution are far better understood now than they were one and a half centuries ago. Only creationist liars and frauds continue to try to peck away at Darwin.

As for your apparent faith in the biblical creation mythology can you clear up a few details for me, but first let me quote a respected theologian on how to determine what is true.
"No opinion can be heretical, but that which is not true.... Conflicting falsehoods we can comprehend; but truths can never war against each other."
Rev Adam Sedgwick (22 March 1785 – 27 January 1873)
Based on this test for truth, can you tell me where chickens come from? Here are your options.
Gen1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen2:19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;
No contradictions?
Which came first, the Chicken, or the man?
Gen1:20 Chicken Gen1:27 Man
Gen2:7 Man Gen2:19 Chicken
No contradictions?
What was made to keep the first man from being alone? I will let you research that one for yourself.

I note that you are ducking the questions on the mythology concerning the principal boy in your favourite pantomime. What's the matter peanut, don't you have an answer?

Your comment about your chosen superstition being different from the "New age" crap like Yoga and "mindfulness" is like taking cyanide as a cure for arsenic poisoning. And your attempt to create a false equivalence between primitive superstition and hard science is disingenuous at best and typical of the dishonesty exhibited by fascists everywhere.

Faith is not required to believe a demonstrable truth. Faith is only required to believe a lie. Faith is the rabbit hole of self-delusion.
"Faith is the excuse you give when you have no good reason for your beliefs" Matt Dillahunty

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BigD 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 19-Mar-2018 9:43:14
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@Nimrod

You can't test evolution in a controlled environment. You can't create life from a protein 'soup' in a petri dish. You can't go back in time and film the Big Bang happening or indeed deduce where the energy required to produce the matter / explosion would have come from. These theories, however many peer reviews they have undergone, are still basically conjecture padded out with mathematics. They are no less a faith position (more so if anything) than a faith in the God of the Bible. Science is for the betterment of society and a worthy endeavour as long as the experiments demonstrating and proving the theories proceed in line with the scientific method which NONE of those above are able to do.

Where are the evolving new species of animals adapting to climate change and supplanting the old inferior species? Where are the new species of amphibian Dolphins (for example) that have intelligence comparable to mankind who could one day become the dominant species on Earth?
Where are the new man made Amoeba type organisms created from proteins in a Petri dish?
Where is the proof of a mysterious worm hole / gate to a parallel universe through which all the matter and energy was passed in order to facilitate a Big Bang in our universe?

Do peer reviewed papers categorically explain and prove the theories in line with these or other expected outcomes if they actually were true? Do they even attempt to grapple with these fundamental questions arising from the spurious and refutable theories? It seems to me that the answer to everything is,

"Throw enough millions of years at something and chaos theory means it will happen eventually!"

I guess all these things WILL happen in the minds of secular atheistic fundamentalists. They just have to keep the faith

Last edited by BigD on 19-Mar-2018 at 10:04 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 19-Mar-2018 at 09:54 AM.

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BigD 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 19-Mar-2018 10:12:13
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@Thread

At the end of the day Billy Graham and the Bible both point to the fact that a relationship with God through Jesus Christ is more important that arguing over evolution or old versus new Earth theories. It is remarkable however that people like Nimrod basically set Darwin (and the 'evolutionist cult' following in his wake) up as an irrefutable source of truth and knowledge while making it their life's work to attack the Bible the one single most complete source of truth and knowledge ever imparted to mankind!

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jorit2 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 19-Mar-2018 10:38:08
#87 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 243
From: Unknown

@BigD

My computer must be broken.

I truly can't believe what I'm reading ...
This is beyond ... anything I've ever seen ...

And I thought I had seen the worst of all when watching Richard Dawkins vs Ken Ham ....
Picturing children dinosaurback-riding, 'cause you know, according to the Bible the world cannot be more than a couple o' thousands years old, and hence, dinosaurs and mankind must at some point in time have co-existed. It then only makes sense that surely kids at the time must have been dinosaurback-riding. What else could they do ?

Evert

Last edited by jorit2 on 19-Mar-2018 at 03:05 PM.
Last edited by jorit2 on 19-Mar-2018 at 02:51 PM.
Last edited by jorit2 on 19-Mar-2018 at 11:09 AM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 19-Mar-2018 20:47:05
#88 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@BigD

Quote:
You can't test evolution in a controlled environment.
Actually, you CANtest evolution in a controlled environment. Back in 1972 workers at a chemical factory started fining bacteria thriving in waste tanks. The Flavobacteria were living entirely on a diet of byproducts of nylon manufacture, such as the linear dimer of 6-aminohexanoate. These substances are not known to have existed before the invention of nylon in 1935. Further study of the bacteria revealed that the three enzymes the bacteria were using to digest the byproducts were significantly different from any other enzymes produced by other Flavobacterium strains (or, for that matter, any other bacteria), and not effective on any material other than the manmade nylon byproducts. Scientists investigating the phenomenon introduced batches of Pseudomonas aeruginosa into sealed containers of the waste and monitored the experiment and in short order they had produced a second Nylon digesting bacterium.

Scientific theories are demonstrated to be true by their ability to make accurate and verifiable predictions. On Friday the 8th of September 1854 Doctor John Snow had the handle removed from the pump on Broad Street predicting that it would bring an end to the cholera epidemic. You would no doubt refer to his epidemiology as "Conjecture padded out with mathematics but that is only because you need to remove your shoes and socks to count up to twenty, and undo a zipper to reach 21.
Faith is not required to believe a demonstrable truth. Faith is only required to believe a lie. Faith is the rabbit hole of self-delusion.
What evidence can you cite that the principal boy in the Christian pantomime even existed? There is absolutely no contemporary evidence outside of the plagiarised fantasy stories of the "Wholly Babble" that confirm or corroborate any of the claims made in the bible.

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BrianK 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 19-Mar-2018 21:31:02
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@BigD

Quote:
You can't test evolution in a controlled environment.
Interestingly enough a controlled environment evolutionary test has been happening for the last 30 years. http://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/

Quote:
You can't create life from a protein 'soup' in a petri dish.
The change of non-biological into a biological population is called abiogenesis. Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. As such evolution does not rely upon abiogenesis being true.

Quote:
You can't go back in time and film the Big Bang happening
Nor can you film your godhead. Though humans are able to inductively reason. And we can do this by using the current images of the effects from the Big Bang. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background

Quote:
They are no less a faith position (more so if anything) than a faith in the God of the Bible
There's more faith of the God in the Bible. The reason is you have the exact same questions science have and plus one more, where did God come from.

Quote:
Where are the evolving new species of animals adapting to climate change and supplanting the old inferior species?
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/ten-species-are-evolving-due-changing-climate-180953133/

Quote:
Where are the new man made Amoeba type organisms created from proteins in a Petri dish?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/synthetic-genome-cell/

Quote:
At the end of the day Billy Graham and the Bible both point to the fact that a relationship with God through Jesus Christ is more important that arguing over evolution or old versus new Earth theories.
Point to the faith... Not fact.

Quote:
It is remarkable however that people like Nimrod basically set Darwin (and the 'evolutionist cult' following in his wake) up as an irrefutable source of truth and knowledge while making it their life's work to attack the Bible the one single most complete source of truth and knowledge ever imparted to mankind!
Not sure about Nimrod but Science has proven Darwin wasn't true. Well, wasn't true is a bit off didn't have it exactly right. Evolutionary science has moved beyond the 1859 writings. And while not perfect, we do have an increased accuracy of prediction if we use the knowledge we have in the 21st century versus relying only on the knowledge of the mid-19th.

But somehow all the animals walked from Antartica in pairs to get on a boat and then walked back to avoid a world wide flood.

Last edited by BrianK on 19-Mar-2018 at 09:40 PM.

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jorit2 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 19-Mar-2018 22:03:09
#90 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 243
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

You can't create life from a protein 'soup' in a petri dish.


Maybe ...

But from your comment I gather you are at least aware of the Miller/Urey experiment

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11084-016-9526-x

Recent advances, including an ever narrowing time-window for the appearance of cellular life, the development of concepts of inheritance that are not tied to digital polymer-encoding systems, and the ideas of surface metabolism and neighborhood selection, suggest that the origin of life may be much easier than previously appreciated.


Quote:

"Throw enough millions of years at something and chaos theory means it will happen eventually!"


That's not what we think, and maybe you should read again, to see what chaos-theory is all about

Christian De Duve:


"The answer of modern molecular biology to this much-debated question is categorical: chance, and chance alone, did it all, from primeval soup to man, with only natural selection to sift its effects. This affirmation now rests on overwhelming factual evidence."

But the succession of chances that created life did not operate in a vacuum, he said. "It operated in a universe governed by orderly laws and made of matter endowed with specific properties. These laws and properties are the constraints that shape evolutionary roulette and restrict the numbers that can turn up. Among these numbers are life and all its wonders, including the conscious mind."


Quote:

It is remarkable however that people like Nimrod basically set Darwin (and the 'evolutionist cult' following in his wake) up as an irrefutable source of truth and knowledge while making it their life's work to attack the Bible the one single most complete source of truth and knowledge ever imparted to mankind!


I don't think Nimrod or BrianK, or me, or so many others, consider the evolution-theory as an irrefutable source of truth. We just observe it has not been refuted. And it is challenged continuously ...

edit: replaced "Darwin-theory" by "evolution-theory"

Evert

Last edited by jorit2 on 19-Mar-2018 at 10:39 PM.

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BrianK 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 21-Mar-2018 13:30:44
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@BigD

Mutating DNA caught on video. Active EVOLUTION.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/03/mutating-dna-caught-film



Last edited by BrianK on 21-Mar-2018 at 02:47 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 24-Mar-2018 10:41:51
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@BigD

This is already five pages long and I missed it? Okay it's been a few weeks in the hidden section. I didn't miss the passing of Billy.

My father even went to to see Billy Graham at the MCG. In Melboune in 1969 at the cricket ground. My sister was born earlier that year. I didn't exist yet.

When his son Franklin visited, also at the MCG, I went to see him with a friend and a church youth group. It was obvious he was there in the footsteps of his father. But the gospel message was of course the same.

When they had the calling lots of people gathered onto the ground. I wanted to go but remained with my friend. I had a chance to touch the grass of the sacred ground of the MCG and and I let it go! What was I thinking!? LOL.

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Hypex 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 24-Mar-2018 14:53:34
#93 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Thread devotees

Before I read this thread and lost all that time the worse I heard about Billy was him being a Freemason.

However here he is mentioned as being violent, racist and a thug. That's a very damnable description. I never met the guy. Nor his colleges. Nor do I know his full history. So I can't make such a terrible charge against the man. And I think it's quite sad that in a thread about his death it has turned into a hate crusade against the Graham.

That's interesting, here Christianity is accused of being vile, hateful and a death cult. And yet other hateful remarks in this thread are acceptable? Are we even reading the same bible here? Or is the "common" Jesus that went against all these things not the real Jesus because men wrote about him? And true Christian faith not based on love? Seems to be a bit contradictory here.

There are a lot of attacks on Christianity on the net. After reading a few I noticed they have mistakes or a full of hyperbole. So why should I trust them? More so, in almost all cases, they attack the Old Testament. Hello, the foundation of Judaism. Yep, it's totally acceptable to put up an obvious antisemitic web site and attack Jewish people, as long as you call it an attack on Christianity. Yeah right...

I heard Billy say what he wants when he meets his Maker is to be told, "Well done, good and faithful servant." A good and faithful servant, well done as a steak on the barbie. Whatever his flaws, his whole ministry hangs on that.

I see it this way. Whatever our research, opinions or other conclusions. Christianity is right. Or it isn't. I see no in between. There are stories where so called believers lose faith. And stories where atheists come to faith. So we all can't hide away here. And about faith. I don't buy it that faith is believing without evidence. True faith to me is believing with confirmation.

I've heard stories and met people who have had experiences such as a theophany. And things like being classed as clinically dead in some cases. Now you can say what you want about these people. That they are straight out liars, suddenly developed an instant mental illness of seeing things, or still were able to think even with loss of blood to the head. I have passed out many times and I can tell you when I was wiped out on the floor I consciously did not exist and the coming too I have experienced was so terrible I would not wish it on my enemy. We don't know everything about this world or how we work. And each day we can learn a but more. Sometimes it can be mystical. What a strange ending

Last edited by Hypex on 24-Mar-2018 at 02:58 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Billy Graham's Thanksgiving / Funeral Service
Posted on 2-Apr-2018 21:10:54
#94 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Hypex

Faith is not required to believe a demonstrable truth. Faith is only required to believe a lie. Faith is the rabbit hole of self-delusion.

"Faith is the excuse you give when you have no good reason for your beliefs" Matt Dillahunty

Regarding your comment that the OT is the foundation of Judaism, I would remind you of a few lines from the NT regarding the OT.
Matthew 5:17-19 King James Version (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And sticking strictly to the NT. was the principal boy in the Christian mythology born before the death of Herod the great in 4BC, or was he still "in utero after his successor Archelaus had been deposed afer a decade of incompetent misrule led to the people of Judaea and Samaria petitioning the Roman emperor to depose him and institute direct rule as a part of the Roman empire.
Who was the father of Joseph, husband of Mary? Was it Jacob, or was it Heli.

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