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nikosidis 
To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 11:10:11
#1 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

I would like to start a discussion about our platform.

We have Amiga classic, AmigaNG, MorphOS and AROS.

Amiga classic is very much alive not only cause of the demo scene but also with the Apollo, Vampire cards that will soon support AGA and have a standalone version where no need for old hardware.

Within the demo scene it is more about the hardware limitations or the unique hardware like the SID chip that is most attracting. I'm not sure Vampire 080 will be a new standard for 060 or call it advanced, powerfull 68k demo makers. Most of the demo makers use WinUAE or similar anyway.

I read so much about problems porting stuff with big endian as MorphOS and AmigaNG run on outdated CPU platforms.

Personaly I'm a proud AROS user and with dedicated hardware it runs realy good and I hardly experience crash etc. There was a time where AROS was a big pain to use but not anymore.
Not only is AROS very portable but even have a version for 64-bit and a very early SMP version that already proved working.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye2S_vnYpLU

Don't get me wrong. Even if I'm very found of the idea of AROS open source Amiga like system I would gladly buy something Amigaish future proven hardware or OS that would seam to at least have some kind of future. I mean a platform should at least have a great web-browser that is updated on a regular basis and there should be some dedicated software to use with it.

I think the greatest mistake Hyperion did was to go into the AmigaOS business. They should have kept porting or making software for Amiga.
What realy make a huge userbase and a great platform is the dedicated software to use with it.
Make one game everyone wants and people will buy it.

I think the platform must be realistic and with OS limitations like lack of memory protection it should be a gaming platform. I think it is the reason 98% of all classic Amiga users bought it in the first place.

My trust in whatever company that try to run this platform is gone. What the Vampire team done in quite short time is amazing. This is real entusiasts and with the V.4 standalone version and with enought support it could realy become a new area for future Amiga.
If the FPGA can be programed to use all kind of custom chipsets to decode Video or whatever it is very, very exiting and almost like a dream never thought possible project. I guess future FPGA can also be run at much higher clock.

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OlafS25 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 11:23:58
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

+1

I think future of amiga is the past, the 68k platform (here of course the vampire project + emulation)

Luckily I can combine both "NG" and "68k" ;)

Future here means growing platform but still a small niche market but "small" in the sense bigger than now

I doubt that the NG platforms today have any real chance to feelable extend the user base, partly because of high entry costs or simply because of lack of modern software. The train has long moved on, even up-to-date amiga platform would not change much about that.

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fishy_fis 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 11:45:18
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@nikosidis

Not to be arguementative, but I can't say I agree with that.
There's more OS4/MOS/AROS users and developers. Vampire/Apollo core is very retro still.
It's restricted to OS3.x and maybe 68k AROS. It has no 3d support. Its development tools (ie. 68k dev tools) are very old.
It's simply another fracture, one that has sever disadvantages vs all "NG" options.
Software is harder to port and it doesnt have the grunt to run the vast majority of the software available for the NG platforms and it probably never will.

I've seen hilarious claims that "if there was an i- series processor that ran at 70mhz,.....",... haha

Another angle could also be,..... "if it ran at the sorts of clock speeds available 25 years ago",..... and this is apparently a pro


End of the day the platform is pretty much inconsequential. It's just a fact of life for people who want to use "alternative" computing. Ive said it before, but us amiga-oids actually have it pretty good vs. other alternative systems.
A very slow, big endian processor wont change that, even if it gets 20x as fast. Heck even ppc system are becoming harder and harder to port software to, let alone some obscure, much slower fpga.

Interesting project and credit to the developers for seeing it this far, but its nothing more than another alternative retro option.

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OlafS25 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 12:19:01
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@fishy_fis

more developers on NG? Really?

Why progress has vastly stalled on all NG platforms?

Porting of software from other mainstream platforms is not easy because of missing (software) components and there are only few developers still active and being able to do that. Why people would start to use one of the NG OSs as main system if they can use f.e. Linux? AROS has gone a long way and you can install it at least in a VM but how many new users have jumped in? 4.X sticks to expensive exotic PPC hardware and is a hard sell. MorphOS has cheaper options but the tremendous grow of the user base has not happened either. That will not change even if it will be ported to X64 (somewhen in future). Amiga is retro today, nothing else.

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nikosidis 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 12:50:58
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@fishy_fis

Yes, you have a good point and I can not say that I have not tought about the problem with 080 CPU in 2018.
What I been thinking is that doing it the amiga way with custom chips it is as I have understood that the Vampire v.4 system can run 720P video with the use of custom chip hardware programed into the FPGA.
For sure like you said hardware 3D is not supported but would for sure be possible in the future.
The SAGA (future version of AGA) will bring more mothern stuff to the table.

I just think the project is very interesting and I know they are looking into the web-browser alternatives.
V. 4 standalone version will only be sold by Amiga dealers around the world. With a little advertising we will probably see the most successfull Amiga hardware regarding sales since Commodore. Not to compare of cause but I have a hope it could at least feed the developers to further develop the system. Who knows, not everything is based on raw CPU grut. If video is accellerated a web-browser could run at good speed with this system.
As retro is popular I don't see why this could not be a popular retro system with quite mothern features.
This system have potential to impress even in 2018.

Did you see this system running Neo-Geo games?




Last edited by nikosidis on 03-Apr-2018 at 12:54 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 03-Apr-2018 at 12:53 PM.

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nikosidis 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 13:27:16
#6 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

What I would like to see is some AROS laptop real cheap for mothern Amigalike system and Vampire as a classic future proof system.

I have no problems with other Amiga or amigalike systems either as long as they run on cheap hardware and not PPC. Must be x86 or ARM.


Last edited by nikosidis on 03-Apr-2018 at 01:27 PM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 13:49:34
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@OlafS25

Abolutely there's more developers for "NG" machines.
Incase you hadnt noticed the "NG" developers are writing 3 entirely new/different operating systems.
The manpower behind that alone is well beyond the sum of all Vampire/Apollo developers.
There's also more apps developed and ported to the "NG" options.
What does Vampire have? A handful of often scaled back ports that the NG systems have had for years, plus an updated video player that's very, very limited.
Anything else?

Now as for, "Why people would start to use one of the NG OSs as main system if they can use f.e. Linux?",.... don't you think that's more than a little obtuse in this context?

It's pretty simple. Amiga-oid systems arent linux. If a person wanted to use Linux they would. It's not either/or, not one or the other.
The question can also be asked, "why would someone use a Vampire when they can use Linux".

Your last sentence is also missing a few words......

"Amiga is retro, for my interests" is what you meant. I don't like to put words in peoples mouths, but in this case it's accurate.

I do just as much "modern" computing on AROS as I do anywhere else, and at least it has the resources for modern computing,... something no 68k or clone cpu will have (and I say this as someone who probably has the worlds fastest 68k platform and has for a long, long time).

This isnt to say I dislike the Vampire cards. It's pretty cool stuff. Theyre just not something that takes the platform anywhere new (can't even reach the heights available to other options a decade ago).

That was my entire point. A completely neutral, nonchalant response.

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fishy_fis 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 13:57:10
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@nikosidis

Nah, havent seen the Vampire running NeoGeo stuff.
I've run Neo Geogames on a classic Amiga about 10 years ago though so it's not really all that interesting to me.

As for dedicated AROS machines, we've discussed this before, but I like the way things are at the moment. There's hundreds and thousands of machines that work nicely. So many in fact that Im surprised at the lack of variety in hardware people use for AROS.
I just paid $40 for a Samsung laptop with geforce graphics and a core2duo.
Was looking for a supported machine and honestly the biggest problem was making a choice,..... there's sooooo freaking many options.

Core logic support is the better bet. The more supported the more machines that will work. Targetting a few machines is restricting.

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OlafS25 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 14:02:29
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@fishy_fis

thanks that you explain me what I want to say...

Vampire is retro, people use it for fun, because of memories. People do not expect it to compete with the main system running Windows, MacOS or linux. Linux not offers the same feeling, the same fun. Simply as that. That is the reason why people use vampires. But I guess you already knows. Amiga is retro for most users, much more people than in all NG camps combined. And what software is available for vampire? More or less anything ever developed on 68k and even most new programs at least have 68k versions. But I guess you know that too ;)

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nikosidis 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 15:01:29
#10 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

The Vampire cards are relativly new and I know lot's are waiting for the A1200 version and spes. the v.4 stand alone version. When coders get their hands of this stuff it will be lots of software for it. Much more that produced for any AmigaNG system. That is at least what i belive.

The problem is not that there is no hardware to use with AROS. There are lots. Some are good some are not. What I'm pretty sure is the main problem is that people would buy a solution if AROS came installed and maybe with other OS. I know this been tried done with standalone computers but I like to see this for laptop. People would also like to see some branding. Even if it is just a sticker that say AROS with a nice logo or something.
It should be the officialy supported AROS laptop and then people can feel free to use whatever they like but that would be the proven fully supported AROS platform.
I would also very much like to know the model name of a laptop fully supported with Nvidia gfx. Both me and Paolone been looking for one for a long time.
I tried a couple that did not work with Nvidia native 2D and 3D gfx.

Last edited by nikosidis on 03-Apr-2018 at 03:04 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 03-Apr-2018 at 03:01 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 15:14:20
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

I appreciate what you do

What I fear is (besides that Aros not has the name and not the tight 68k integration like on 4.X and MorphOS) that people do not have enough motivation to search and configure compatible hardware. They are comforted to install and configure everything without much work like when using a mainstream OS or install the other NG platforms on supported hardware. It would be needed to have full supported hardware (f.e. notebooks and desktops) and in best case a complete installation CD with everything on it you put in and start. Additional there is (as I wrote) the problem that it cannot called amiga and 68k integration is done with UAE and not with something like Petunia. It "feels" less Amiga than f.e. on AmigaOS. Additionally most users already have their preferred NG platform so I do not believe they would change. Vampire is something different, even someone using 4.X or MorphOS can be excited about "classic". It is what more or less all have common.

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remotenemesis 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 15:17:48
#12 ]
Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2018
Posts: 94
From: SF Bay Area, California

Some thoughts from somebody who missed (in both senses of the word) the Amiga scene since the mid-90s:

PPC was probably an obvious Amiga-like choice given the chipset was already in the Amiga ecosystem and somewhat adopted by the end of the 90s. I'm truly impressed that new boards have even been produced at all. I'm particularly thinking of the X5000 and A1222 here. I also wonder whether the price of the X5000 was supposed to subsidize the price A1222? I think A-AEON has done a tremendous job bringing these to market but there are some obvious and painful lessons here:

1. having the OS and hardware under the same control is very desirable
2. developing an OS is freakin' hard work.
3. building a web browser is freakin' hard work
4. small-scale production of niche hardware is always going to be relatively expensive

I won't speak about MorphOS as I know very little about it.

What is AROS for? Is it a lifeboat to a better future for the platform or a museum? Running on commodity PC hardware is hugely useful. Serious question for any AROS devs out there... how are we doing against the constant tide of keeping up with new commodity hardware that could run AROS? Are we gaining ground, just keeping up or falling behind? For any answer other than gaining ground, what are our options?

1. Attract more devs? That could be done with some well-placed articles but the AROS docs are in really bad shape. I'm trying to learn MUI development and there's precious little documentation around. I'd help up out but there's literally a bootstrap problem here. One has to know the system to document it.

2. Give up on hardware support and ride-along on top of Linux (or even better a UNIX) like AEROS. Not super attractive but if we're really losing ground on hardware support, why not bite the bullet and make the most Amiga-like system possible. An Amiga-Linux or Amiga-UNIX hybrid would not be awful is executed well. Well in this case means better than macOS X ;)

I guess I'm really not that excited about a PC-based Amiga but it is definitely far superior to letting the platform die.

I really like the idea of AmigaOS. Its part of our DNA. Progress appears to be excruciatingly slow, I don't know how anyone can even run a business around it (I suspect it is not at all profitable and mostly a labor of love). I'd love to see it open sourced and the Amiga rights licensed to a non-profit organization that could define Amiga compatibility. Cloanto could do this and preserve their business.

This hobby industry likely doesn't have the resources to build a new ground-up Amiga. Amiga barely pulled it off and needed Commodore to fund the market entry and sell the beasts. There's also a lot less reason to do so now with the incredible power available in off the shelf graphics cards (sound cards effectively peaked a while back). The cool capabilities that Amiga hardware brought are just commodities now.

I'd like a modern Amiga as a daily driver. I'm hoping to buy an X5000 later this year... or settle for a Tabor ;) I think there's appetite among developers to try something new and OS4 looks like a platform with decent developer support. Am I wrong?

Having reference architectures, either as standards or actual physical products forces us to focus on making the hardware work. We just don't have the resources to serve all the commodity hardware out there. Linux does this with a huge developer base and also hardware manufacturer support. We have neither of those things. Games consoles manage quite well not being infinitely configurable (although the move now seems to be support more frequent hardware upgrade cycles within the same marque).

I think A-EON are on the right track here from a hardware perspective because they are defining a reference hardware for the software efforts to focus on. PPC itself may not be a sustainable choice. ARM is probably the future but that's something we could navigate with a coordinated effort. I'd love to see A-EON, Hyperion and Cloanto form a new Amiga company. Failing that having the Amiga rights licensed t to an open source/standards foundation would go a long way. I believe an open source OS4 would attract more developers. Linux is "done", AmigaOS needs love and there's room for developers to build some of the really cool features we need for the future such as multi-core support.

None of this means anything.











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Samurai_Crow 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 17:23:38
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2320
From: Minnesota, USA

@thread

I've been on Amiga since 1993 and as much as it pains me to say it, the decisions early on about how the OS should be built are the Amiga architecture's undoing. When Commodore refused to license AmigaOS to Be, Inc. to make into a multithreaded, multicore operating system and they started over from scratch using only standardized APIs to make the BeBox, the NG Amiga was already behind.

Now that time has passed and graphics drivers have replaced custom hardware, so little of what the Classic Amiga was, remains intact that I have to say that catching up even to a dual processor BeBox whose technology predates the AmigaOne is a lost cause.

Is it because of the independent efforts of 3 OS development teams? Not at all! If anything it's because the Amiga was never projected to even be what it is today! I think a hosted AROS is sufficiently backward compatible to AmigaOS APIs that the workings under the hood should be irrelevant to the discussion.

In the early days of NG Amigas, MorphOS offered the ABox APIs as an Amiga compatible format with the promise of a compatibility breaking QBox to add the most impressive features later via the Quark microkernel underpinnings. If only it were so simple. AmigaOS4 offered compatibility breaking features right away in the form of library interfaces that actually make the OS slower in the process of modernisation. Aros contains OOP.library in its kernel which makes its object oriented device drivers as slow as OS4's library interfaces.

I think we need to get back to the roots. Trying to get Amiga experience back doesn't lie in an OS alone nor hardware alone. There would be no need for drivers if each faction had their own hardware and software completely integrated. Drivers are as expensive to write and maintain as FPGA chipset cores and bloat the OS needlessly. Amiga was based on the DRY principle. That means "don't repeat yourself" so why bother doing so in the market sector?

To be continued...

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fishy_fis 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 17:37:25
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@nikosidis

The thing is though people already have their hands on this stuff..... where's the software? And where is it going to come from?
Simply having hardware no matter how interesting doesnt mean there'll be software. There's also the fact that actual current developers already have issues with the hardware (microarch isnt completely compatible with 68k).

Supported laptops for AROS by the way,.... dell e5440 (core2duo), Asus k55v (i5), samsung r530 and about a billion others that I cant remember off the top of my head. There's also the Compaq Presario cq series that has an athlon64x2 + geforce video. I've been telling people about that one for years.
Out of 5 that I tried 4 worked. It's very easy to find one and to be honest Im completely baffled that people have problems at all finding properly supported gear. I very rarely find something that matches that doesnt work.


@olaf

Quote:
thanks that you explain me what I want to say...


That's ok. You was confused so I helped you out.

Or maybe that's sarcastic. Yeah, it definitely was. You was putting your opinion forward as fact. It's not fact. Doesnt matter how much of a smart ass you are in your response.

The boat will be missed by the vampire by the time it's ready for mass consumption (if it ever reaches that point at all).
It wont grow the platform, its merely another fracture with some overlaps.

As for 68k having most of the ports of the "NG" systems,.... cool.

Where can I download OWB 1.25 for 68k? What about Doom3? What about warzone 2100? What about 3d game maker? What about vpdf? What about lodepaint? What about Supermodel? What about a version of Cannonball that hasnt been toned back? What about even Quake3? MAME that uses current romset (ie. any builds from the last 10 years?). What about MESS? Any Bochs ports? Any pdf viewers that can view pdfs using 1.3 or upwards version of the pdf standard (that originated roughly 15 years ago),. what about,. what about,... etc.

And yes as you imply I do know the truth here, and that is that 68k doesnt have, and isnt capable of most of the above. So no, it doesnt get ports of most NG software. Not even close. Aminet does have a lot of 68k uploads, but look at it. It's mostly junk. Not real software.



End of the day all any of us are doing is trying to enjoy certain computing paradigms that are mostly relics while we can. Its a limited audience with a very finite lifespan (not the audience, the style of computing, although I suspect the average Amigan is far from young ).

Personally I think its insane to put up obstacles when your audience, ergo lifeblood is so limited.

One final thought though,...... does any of this really matter?
All our options are good fun and fairly fulfilling. For me I prefer things this way. The more generic we get the less charm the system has. I enjoy amiga-oid systems because of what they are, even if that costs in terms of available software.

Anyway, I've shared my views, so I'll leave it at that. Cant say I agree on all opinions here, but to each their own.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 03-Apr-2018 at 06:16 PM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 03-Apr-2018 at 06:16 PM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 03-Apr-2018 at 06:13 PM.

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amigang 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 17:48:04
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 2018
From: Cheshire, England

I think for the NG market we do need to consider running on linux as core now, its just development is too slow and too few devs to keep up unfortunately (and I'm not having a go at devs at all many are working on the Amiga as a hobby when they could be out doing other things or earning more money and making apps/games for other platforms).

But for me I really want a Next Gen Amiga system, the X1000 & OS4.1 kinda feels like that old catch phase "close but no cigar" and that goes for Aros when I tried it (with out linux). When I bought the X1000, Timberwolf had just come out we got promised openoffice and a few other key apps and things really where looking up and I thought the system was grate and with these few gaps filled in (a modern web browser, office app, a few other apps) we be winning, but as I've seen progress slow down or cancelled on most of these project it kinda be as hard to really be positive for the future of the platform (at least on Os4 side).

When I got to try Aros on a host linux machine that would run apps as if it they where part of aros I was impressed and kinda think this is mostly like the best option, it not the happiest of solutions but I think if Os4 could do the same on a linux PPC port it be worth it and fill n them gaps and maybe if the userbase expands or more devs come back we can get off Linux and run native again.

_________________
AmigaNG, YouTube, LeaveReality Studio

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fishy_fis 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 17:50:40
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@remotenemesis

AROS started life as "Amiga Replacement OS",.... it was started when the incompetence of the rights holders and the fact it was a sinking ship became apparent. An open system so enthusiasts wouldnt have to rely on commercial entities.

As for hardware support, its quite limited, but it does have the largest amount of supported hardware in the "amiga-verse". It also has the best performing hardware by orders of magnitudes. Its also the easiest to develop for.


Not trying to do any sort of "vs." crap here, Im just answering the crux of your questions in a bit of a compressed manner.

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nikosidis 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 18:31:18
#17 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@fishy_fis

Thx Fishy :) I be looking into the models you mention.

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fishy_fis 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 18:35:08
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@nikosidis

I recommend looking into things before you make any purchases though.
There's a few variations on most laptops. Strangely (well I think its a bit weird) manufacturers often make slight adjustments depending on the region theyre being sold.

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nikosidis 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 19:37:47
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@fishy_fis

One thing you are probably very right about is that AROS is more easy to develop for and that porting stuff to vampire 68k will be very painfull.

Last edited by nikosidis on 03-Apr-2018 at 07:38 PM.

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bison 
Re: To be or not to be
Posted on 3-Apr-2018 20:10:08
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@nikosidis

Quote:
We have Amiga classic, AmigaNG, MorphOS and AROS.

There are really only two groups: Amiga Classic, and Amiga NG, which includes AmigaOS, MorphOS, and AROS.

The problem with Amiga NG as a group is they all aspire to be something more modern than Amiga Classic, but one can't create a modern OS without memory protection. Even if there were modern web browsers for these systems, you couldn't safely use them because it's not safe to be connected to a network on a system without memory protection. And you can't add memory protection to Amiga without breaking backward compatibility.

Probably the best way forward is to make AROS a sub-system of Linux, where the underlying OS already has memory protection, SMP, and better-than-Amiga hardware support. This is mostly what it already is, for some of us anyway, but there are things that could be improved, such as adding copy-and-paste and IPC between AROS and X11.

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