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EntilZha
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 19-May-2004 11:31:47
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OS4 Core Developer |
Joined: 27-Aug-2003 Posts: 1679
From: The Jedi Academy, Yavin 4 | | |
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| @CodeSmith
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Nice! How do you determine if a particular memory area contains "legit" 68K code? Specifically, if I overrun a buffer and inject some 68K code into the stack (or the heap, I guess), will the 68K emulator run that code? |
There's no such check. If you point the emulator somewhere, it will start emulating, no matter if it's genuine 68k code or not. You could of course use s buffer overflow to run 68k code, but coming from PPC, this is not possible with at least a bit of PPC glue code (there's no "automatic" switch from PPC to 68k), which will need exeuctable memory (hence no stack or buffer can supply that). Of course, replacing the return address of a 68k call with another one will still work, however, you do need 68k code to execute your 68k code in the first place. It's not possible in a "normal" PPC environment. _________________ Thomas, the kernel guy
"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil
All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment |
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Bobsonsirjonny
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 19-May-2004 11:36:38
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Elite Member |
Joined: 28-Jul-2003 Posts: 2880
From: Unknown | | |
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| @EntilZha
Dude - I was just trying to explain what Athiest meant.. He's the one who was saying best not say anything less the opposition pinch ideas.
As for all the code stuff - and execute enabled stuff... Im clueless as to what it means.
I just want an OS I can use, and does what it says on the tin
2 Days dude - then you get Beer |
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Geri
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 19-May-2004 12:47:45
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Elite Member |
Joined: 7-Oct-2003 Posts: 2038
From: ST/AT | | |
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| @CodeSmith, EntilZha
How about implementing this functionality in the identify.library (returns hardware infos about the motherboard, Zorro cards, etc..) that is already available for the classic AmigaOS?
Is there something planned like the sysinfo.library (Executive or SysMon) or the proc-handler? Both return information about the tasks, CPU usage (sysinfo) and so on either through library calls or a virtual filesystem?
_________________ A1SE: G3@600MHz, 2GB, 1GBit network card A1XE: G4@933MHz, 2GB, refitted AC'97 codec microA1: G3@800MHz, 1GB
- A1 Linux support - |
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EntilZha
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 19-May-2004 19:23:23
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OS4 Core Developer |
Joined: 27-Aug-2003 Posts: 1679
From: The Jedi Academy, Yavin 4 | | |
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| @Geri
Quote:
Is there something planned like the sysinfo.library (Executive or SysMon) or the proc-handler? Both return information about the tasks, CPU usage (sysinfo) and so on either through library calls or a virtual filesystem? |
Nothing concretely planned yet... _________________ Thomas, the kernel guy
"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil
All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment |
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ihatewestlife2002
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 19-May-2004 19:35:19
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Cult Member |
Joined: 22-Sep-2003 Posts: 830
From: Scotland....only a bit further south! | | |
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| @Bobsonsirjonny
What are they talking about? An alien lanuage!!?!? _________________ If you play a Linux DVD backwards you can clearly see a cool place with penguins. If you play it forwards, it will install the greatest operating system available for your PC computer! |
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Bobsonsirjonny
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 19-May-2004 20:13:14
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Elite Member |
Joined: 28-Jul-2003 Posts: 2880
From: Unknown | | |
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| @ihatewestlife2002
... Right.
Athiest said something along the lines of "are you sure you should be discussing stuff like this in an open forum cos other ppl may steal the ideas generated here"
Entilzha asked what did Athiest mean by that..
So I gave an explanation saying I think Athiest is a bit paranoid about M$ et all pinching ideas and should M$ want to pinch an idea here is one involving custard etc... it was an attempt at humour.. but in hindsight it wasnt funny....
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mjohnson
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 19-May-2004 20:23:45
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Super Member |
Joined: 11-Aug-2003 Posts: 1297
From: going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. | | |
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| @Bobsonsirjonny
Quote:
it was an attempt at humour.. but in hindsight it wasnt funny.... |
Including M$ in any discussion kinda has that effect, y'know?
Besides, they won't even have to steal the ideas anymore and actually use them, they can just patent them to halt the competition, couldn't they?
Mmmmm, paateeent, grrrllll..._________________ A1G4XE, OS4-pre |
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tomazkid
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 19-May-2004 21:25:09
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Team Member |
Joined: 31-Jul-2003 Posts: 11694
From: Kristianstad, Sweden | | |
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| @mjohnson
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Mmmmm, paateeent, grrrllll... |
Scene at the M$ offices: Bill; Oh, that Amiga-thingy, have we got those patents yet, so we can shut them down? And Sun and OpenOffice and Mozilla and and and ......._________________ Site admins are people too..pooff! |
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ihatewestlife2002
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 19-May-2004 21:31:23
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Cult Member |
Joined: 22-Sep-2003 Posts: 830
From: Scotland....only a bit further south! | | |
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| @Bobsonsirjonny
It was funny to me mate lol! I thaught u were serious until the disclaimer hehe
--EDIT-- M$ Isn't funny! Windows is a toy! _________________ If you play a Linux DVD backwards you can clearly see a cool place with penguins. If you play it forwards, it will install the greatest operating system available for your PC computer! |
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CodeSmith
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 19-May-2004 22:03:45
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Elite Member |
Joined: 8-Mar-2003 Posts: 3045
From: USA | | |
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| @ihatewestlife2002
Hehe, it's not quite that bad. A "buffer overrun" is a side effect of one of the design tradeoffs of the C and C++ languages. It trades a speed increase for some safety (most other languages, other than assembly, chose safety instead ). Basically, if you trust someone to give you 100 bytes and he gives you 110, and you don't explicitly check that he gave you 100 bytes, your 100 byte buffer will overrun, and the ten bytes stored after your buffer will get overwritten with the extra ten bytes you got. Normally the result of this is a crash, but in some cases, if you carefully pick what goes in the extra bytes, you can take control of the program that's running. This is how pretty much every single Windows internet worm propagates itself. There's a communications port open to the internet, and the software taking data from that port doesn't check everything that comes in as carefully as it should. So all you have to do is send that port a carefully-crafted message, and the server's 0wn3d.
If you do what I suggested to EntilZha (and which btw I'm extatic that they have in there) will make that sort of attack a lot harder to do. It won't be impossible, but it raises the difficulty level a lot. BSD has had this for some time (I don't know about Linux, but probably), and Microsoft is going to put it into SP2 for Windows XP. The downside with the MS implementation is that it only works on AMD CPUs (it uses something called the NX bit, that Intel CPUs don't have yet). Unsurprisingly, PPCs have had it for a while
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DrBombcrater
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 19-May-2004 22:03:54
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Super Member |
Joined: 6-Feb-2004 Posts: 1382
From: UK | | |
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| @Bobsonsirjonny
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I think he means "Keep mum cos careless talk costs lives".... M$ may be reading this thread and pinch ideas... Amiparanoia me thinks... |
In this specific case MS are already working on a similar system. From service pack 2 Windows XP will support the NX or 'No Execute' bit found on 64-bit AMD processors (and future Intel ones) that prevents executution of code in pages with the NX bit set.
Of course, their implementation will suck compared to OS4, but that's life
@swoodall
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Hey, look ^^^. There's a perfectly good idea sitting there in the public domain for anyone in the world to implement... |
I think such a system is a good idea but it would be fairly useless on the A1 because VIA totally refuse to publically give out the documentation required to access the 686B's thermal and fan speed sensors. No doubt someone will work it out in the end but given the highly dodgy design of the A1 I have doubts that the sensors are actually present and working._________________ Who do you serve, and who do you trust? - Galen |
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amipal
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 19-May-2004 22:36:43
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Super Member |
Joined: 8-Apr-2003 Posts: 1907
From: Saltdean, East Sussex, UK | | |
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| @Bobsonsirjonny
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I just want an OS I can use, and does what it says on the tin
2 Days dude - then you get Beer |
I think WE'LL be buying the drinks for EntilZha and Co.!!! _________________ After a decade away from the scene, I am back! |
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swoodall
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 19-May-2004 23:02:29
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Regular Member |
Joined: 17-Sep-2003 Posts: 248
From: Raleigh NC, USA | | |
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| @DrBombcrater
VIA have published the chip docs which list all the registers and so forth, and there are open-source projects which work with this chip using these sensors. I don't expect that the A1 board has any of the external sensor pins wired out to a socket or header where they could be usefully expanded (unless you have a brave heart and a steady hand with a soldering gun)., but at least any internal voltage and temp sensors should work.
The lm_sensors web page has the source and some driver info for the VIA686. I haven't been motivated enough to integrate all the pieces into the kernel needed to try this in linux, but if we get an updated kernel before long it may have the i2c/smbus parts included to make this integrate easier.
Scott Woodall |
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DrBombcrater
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 20-May-2004 1:20:23
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Super Member |
Joined: 6-Feb-2004 Posts: 1382
From: UK | | |
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| @swoodall
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VIA have published the chip docs which list all the registers and so forth |
Can you provide a link to them? I've never been able to find register level docs for the 686 family, and I know the author of a Windows sensor util asked for them and was basically told to 'sod off' by VIA.
Quote:
I haven't been motivated enough to integrate all the pieces into the kernel needed to try this in linux, but if we get an updated kernel before long it may have the i2c/smbus parts included to make this integrate easier. |
I tried lm_sensors some time ago on my A1-SE and it failed to find any sensor hardware, even with the required i2c support stuff in place.
I'm dubious about how useful it will be anyway. The fan headers on the A1 don't appear to support a pulse line so fan-speed monitoring won't work and there's no external CPU temperature sensor (on my A1, at least)._________________ Who do you serve, and who do you trust? - Galen |
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swoodall
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 20-May-2004 6:36:37
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Regular Member |
Joined: 17-Sep-2003 Posts: 248
From: Raleigh NC, USA | | |
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| @DrBombcrater
There is a copy of the VIA doc in an archive of H/W docs that was on the a1g3dev site with the mailing list. That may be defunct now too, I haven't checked. Anyway there is a more recent version that was posted by a VIA employee as an attachment to a message on the lm-sensors mailing list. After taking another look, it appears that there isn't an internal temp sensor there either, just voltage. I may have to take a soldering iron to this thing yet...
Scott Woodall |
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Hammer
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 20-May-2004 6:45:24
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Elite Member |
Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5246
From: Australia | | |
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| @CodeSmith
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(it uses something called the NX bit, that Intel CPUs don't have yet). |
Note that Intel will enable NX equivalent instructions in their Prescott Cores i.e. Intel labels thier "NX" instructions as "XD" (sigh).
References http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=15915
_________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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CodeSmith
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 20-May-2004 8:18:08
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Elite Member |
Joined: 8-Mar-2003 Posts: 3045
From: USA | | |
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| @Hammer
Ah yes, intel's "Opteron by any other name" CPU I'd forgotten about that.
I don't think the guy who told Andy Grove "sir, we have no choice. We have to sell AMD clones or lose out" will ever forget that day
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Bobsonsirjonny
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 20-May-2004 9:39:21
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Joined: 28-Jul-2003 Posts: 2880
From: Unknown | | |
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Bobsonsirjonny
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 20-May-2004 9:40:05
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Joined: 28-Jul-2003 Posts: 2880
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Anonymous
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Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC? Posted on 20-May-2004 11:54:48
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| Quote:
Bobsonsirjonny wrote:
Exactly |
Hi Bobsonsirjonny,
Exactly!
Also, exactly.
Well, I mean that pudding thing. Well, I mean the revelations of the innards of AOS4.0 being revealed that convey more opportunity for the mischevious to mischieve. *
Makes me nervous.
AmigaOne! AOS4.0! Some mysteries should remain unresolved. |
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