it is dangerous to cite german threads against german readers

@wawa

Quote:

a user states that under these circumstances gallium port is not necessary any more and cyborg simply comments that with a face palm.

costel can 'facepalm' all he wants. all we've gotten from hyperion on the 3D front are broken promises since 2010. any warp3d improvements came from volunteers until A-EON acquired co-ownership a while ago.

say what you want, but at least A-EON deliver. this is the beginning of modern 3D for next-generation amiga systems running AOS, and i'm thrilled. there is tremendous potential here, and i hope we have enough developers and users remaining to take advantage of it.

if costel is experiencing some butthurt over this announcement, perhaps he should direct his frustration at his 'contractors' who consistently deliver nothing at all.

-- eliyahu

_________________
"Physical reality is consistent with universal laws. When the laws do not operate, there is no reality. All of this is unreal."

the software is the weak point there

but you are right... A-eon is filling the gaps Hyperion would be responsible to fill with 4.2

of course that requires users to pay additional for it

@OlafS25 and @wawa

Sorry, too busy harassing the CatsAreUs people to point out where you have both proven my original point...

Last edited by yoodoo2 on 24-Mar-2016 at 04:40 PM.

_________________
Happiness is mandatory.
MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4

We ran 5 Recursion Computer Fairs before hitting the exit condition

Quote:

costel can 'facepalm' all he wants. all we've gotten from hyperion on the 3D front are broken promises since 2010. any warp3d improvements came from volunteers until A-EON acquired co-ownership a while ago. say what you want, but at least A-EON deliver. this is the beginning of modern 3D for next-generation amiga systems running AOS, and i'm thrilled. there is tremendous potential here, and i hope we have enough developers and users remaining to take advantage of it. if costel is experiencing some butthurt over this announcement, perhaps he should direct his frustration at his 'contractors' who consistently deliver nothing at all.

look, thats what ive been saying all along while being banned for this by yourself among others;)
im not taking sides so much as you may think, its just these constantly broken relationships that are an issue that overcomplicates things and doesnt let them being moved forward.
for instance here, i think costel is not completely wrong with his facepalm. a direct gallium solution would be better. ironically his company fails to deliver it and blocks the way. perhaps instead of forking warp3d aeon would have done better brutally starting concurrent gallium port themselves and planting a warp3d wrapper over it for backward compatibility. but maybe such approach goes too deep into the os4 itself, who guarantees hyperion wouldnt change some internal structures and render he aeon extensions inoperable. this situation is a kind of dead lock for whatever reason, likely money.

@OlafS25 and wawa

By bitterness of your comments one may feel Warp3D Nova is deadly menace for AROS 68k.

@Hans

Still regarding old cards, what would be the expectations of a Nova driver for something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_Radeon_R200_series#Architecture ? What features of Nova could be used and what not? What kind of shader programs could be ran and would it mean hand-writing them (if no compiler)?

How much (bounty) would it cost if you would implement it?

I guess this is going to be sold through AMIStore or?

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SAM440EP-FLEX @ 733 Mhz, AmigaOS 4.1 Update 1

@wawa
Quote:

so the subsystem, as i suspected, isnt actually yet in the state o be delivered to users. well this fills well into the pattern of previous announcements, alas.

Actually, it's a lot closer than you think. It's at prerelease level. Good enough, IMHO, to let people give it a spin.

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the problem is, that you and perhaps daytona appear to be only people left who remain to be able to contribute in this field. there might be some potential candidates out there, but they have either left or are in a different camp.

Nonsense! We're not the only ones who are capable. Plus, there are people who are perfectly capable of learning. Bear in mind that I'd never written a graphics driver before starting on the Radeon HD driver, and I'd never written a compiler before starting on Warp3D Nova.

Quote:

Quote: Why using 50% CPU ? whoaa? i must have completely skip on this. where does that come from? ...

You really should have read through my response to that. Trevor is running multiple things at the same time (incl. CANDI). Plus, the logo demo isn't optimised in any way. I have no idea what the polygon count is, and it rerenders every object multiple times; once for every light. That's okay though, because it was designed primarily for two purposes:
- To test using shaders that perform per-pixel lighting
- To serve as more advanced example code for the Warp3D Nova SDK

Quote:

thats understandable. but since the sources are closed (for an understandable reason) a reimplementation from scratch would be necessary.

Or, people could try contacting A-EON and working with them...

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@Mr_Capehill
Quote:

Still regarding old cards, what would be the expectations of a Nova driver for something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_Radeon_R200_series#Architecture ? What features of Nova could be used and what not? What kind of shader programs could be ran and would it mean hand-writing them (if no compiler)?

I'm not familiar enough with the R200 to give a breakdown of what it could and couldn't support.
Some basic details:
vertex shaders:
- Up to 128 instructions long
- Only 12 registers, and no memory access
fragment shaders:
- Up to 22 instructions

Neither shaders can handle the full GLSL repertoire (e.g., the Radeon X800 can't do proper for loops, so I doubt that R200 GPUs can either). That's a lot of restrictions, and it's no surprise that ATI never released GLSL support.

Quote:

How much (bounty) would it cost if you would implement it?

I simply don't have the time. Sorry, but I can't say yes to everything.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@eliyahu:

Quote:

say what you want, but at least A-EON deliver.

True, but the reason they do is that they are able to pay their contributors, while Costel isn't. And the reason A-EON are able to pay their contributors is that every single component costs extra now.

You might not mind half the feature set of 4.2 at twice the price, but it does look somewhat strange from the outside.

Quote:

this is the beginning of modern 3D for next-generation amiga systems running AOS

It will be (not "is") an impressive achievement, and Hans' usual calm and open demeanour almost makes A-EON's usual premature announcement worthwhile.

It means absolutely nothing though, until the OS situation is resolved. You would think solving the OS problem first should be the priority, but that would be sane - i.e. it's a nogo, we don't do "sane" here. Or maybe they already tried - and failed? Hey, who cares, our screen savers can use more polygons now.

Quote:

i'm thrilled

No shit

Quote:

if costel is experiencing some butthurt over this announcement, perhaps he should direct his frustration at his 'contractors' who consistently deliver nothing at all.

You are referring to the very same contractors that are supposed to port OS4 to your tabor board, yes?

What's the term? Ah right: FUBAR.

@cgutjahr

Quote:

True, but the reason they do is that they are able to pay their contributors, while Costel isn't. And the reason A-EON are able to pay their contributors is that every single component costs extra now.

yeah. it's amazing what can happen when one actually honors contracts and pays people what they're owed.

Quote:

You might not mind half the feature set of 4.2 at twice the price, but it does look somewhat strange from the outside.

i don't think anyone is happy with the way things are, but i'll take progress at this point. and since the base OS cost me only $30 compared with what i used to pay, i don't mind paying for drivers additionally. not ideal, but it's something.

Quote:

You are referring to the very same contractors that are supposed to port OS4 to your tabor board, yes?

don't remind me.

-- eliyahu

_________________
"Physical reality is consistent with universal laws. When the laws do not operate, there is no reality. All of this is unreal."

@yoodoo2

Quote:

he already gets at least 10x the performance from Nova as from (original) Warp3D on the same hardware...

Hmm, yeah, the original Warp3D on the same hardware...




@OlafS25

Quote:

it is faster for sure otherwise they would not have done it

Why do indeed AeonKit do the things they do? Like the PA6T based €3000 year 2005 level X1k when the CPU is already dead and limited in left-over supply? "What is X", the Xorro and Xena? Well, AeonKit still ask themselves this question. Anyone that can come up with a clue can win a share of a promised future. Or the slightly less expensive year 2005 performance level X5k half a decade later (still not released), also with Xorro and Xena? The even less powerful "PPC" board Tabor that isn't even fully PPC compatible, and even less released? Warp3D drivers you have to pay extra for in 2016 that delivers 2002 level performance in the 1999 game Q3 on their 2005 level X1000 systems, but only after you replace the graphics card they shipped in the systems with a R7/R9 or similar, since the driver they developed can't handle the H/W they shipped. Now "Warp3D Nova", that even Hyperion say has nothing to do with Warp3D except the name and the fact that it's about 3D somehow. Imagine what this will do for the Commodore era key S/W PersonalPaint that AeonKit pushes! Top this with a none-web based "app store" full of promises. Imagine if all these technologies would coincide with the leap-day of a leap-year and all the planets would be in line? The tidal waves that would hit the earth would be monumental! What? This is a leap-year, and the leap-day happened recently? And the planets were in line recently as well? Well, thankfully it didn't happen at the same time! And thankfully, 2/3 of the 2005 level AeonKit H/W is yet unreleased (as days, months, years goes by), and this Warp3D news is merely a pre-announcement which was in turn pre-announced a few months back (and >100% delayed). Phew! But it sure feels good to know that AeonKit is on top of saving the Amiga, as the unofficial entity they are! And that aren't doing it for the money, but for the sake of it!

@Pavlor

@eliyahu

Quote:

costel can 'facepalm' all he wants. all we've gotten from hyperion on the 3D front are broken promises since 2010. any warp3d improvements came from volunteers until A-EON acquired co-ownership a while ago. say what you want, but at least A-EON deliver. this is the beginning of modern 3D for next-generation amiga systems running AOS, and i'm thrilled. there is tremendous potential here, and i hope we have enough developers and users remaining to take advantage of it. if costel is experiencing some butthurt over this announcement, perhaps he should direct his frustration at his 'contractors' who consistently deliver nothing at all.

...and...

Quote:

Quote: True, but the reason they do is that they are able to pay their contributors, while Costel isn't. And the reason A-EON are able to pay their contributors is that every single component costs extra now. yeah. it's amazing what can happen when one actually honors contracts and pays people what they're owed. Quote: You might not mind half the feature set of 4.2 at twice the price, but it does look somewhat strange from the outside. i don't think anyone is happy with the way things are, but i'll take progress at this point. and since the base OS cost me only $30 compared with what i used to pay, i don't mind paying for drivers additionally. not ideal, but it's something. Quote: You are referring to the very same contractors that are supposed to port OS4 to your tabor board, yes? don't remind me.

...are you actually going to ban yourself now?



Oh, wait! Now I remember, this forum is an AeonKit corporate forum (of which they so kindly informed us a few months after the ownership transition happened)...

Quote:

@Pavlor

I agree Pavlor, that was a good one! Jumping ahead of the inevitable and predictable comments, but with a disarming smiley! Well done!

At the risk of being dangerously close to the topic:

Will this require the Warp3D Base, or is it a freestanding product?

If I am curious about how to write a program that uses this, but I'm not yet ready to ask for the SDK, what would you suggest I could read or study to learn about this?

Finally, The recenly passed Christmas saw my stock 4000 series graphics card replaced with a "R9280X". My music scrolls (fairly) smoothly towards the clef already. I wonder if (either)Warp could help me scroll more smoothly in 2D, or how a 3D option might affect the render?

It could make "getting in to the music" a bit more literal.

_________________
question=(2b||!(2b))

Quote:

Will this require the Warp3D Base, or is it a freestanding product?

It's seperate library does not need Warp3D to run. Will run concurrently.

Quote:

If I am curious about how to write a program that uses this, but I'm not yet ready to ask for the SDK, what would you suggest I could read or study to learn about this?

I'm really only learning about shaders myself, googling 'OpenGL shaders' gives goos background info, though the API specifics are different, the shaders are the same.

Quote:

Finally, The recenly passed Christmas saw my stock 4000 series graphics card replaced with a "R9280X". My music scrolls (fairly) smoothly towards the clef already. I wonder if (either)Warp could help me scroll more smoothly in 2D, or how a 3D option might affect the render?

I would think compositing would be you first port of call for hardware accelerating that kind of thing. I use it for sketchblock improved scrolling and zooming.

3D notes might be cool visually, but I woudn't want to be trying to read that as I played

Last edited by broadblues on 25-Mar-2016 at 01:25 AM.

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BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@TRIPOS

I wondered, where you have been all that time. Nice to see you back in full strength!

I have a HD 6870 in a SAM 440 Flex, so no Warp 3d NOVA in my sistem. :(
But i love the black icons, where I can get it ? :)