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      /  Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
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amitv 
Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 22-Sep-2011 20:39:57
#1 ]
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Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Posts: 346
From: Unknown

http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=6Če=16510

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vox 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 22-Sep-2011 20:47:29
#2 ]
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Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@amitv

What should be made clear? While boards are produced, software
side is being worked on. No one knows exactly when Natami will be out
for end users, price is estimated to ~500-700 euros range for motherboard if remembered it well.

So even the most powerful 68k won`t be cheap

Likely the OS`s will be AROS 68k and OS 3.9

Last edited by vox on 22-Sep-2011 at 08:52 PM.

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Franko 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 22-Sep-2011 20:53:21
#3 ]
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Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

@amitv

Quote:

amitv wrote:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=6Če=16510


Bit ironic eh... the thread title I mean...

You ask for something to be made clear but only give a link to another site with more threads talking about various topics...

Now is this a competition where we have to guess what "your wanting to be made clear" or are we supposed to be mind readers of sumthink... odd... very odd indeedee...

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 22-Sep-2011 21:52:33
#4 ]
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Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3499
From: Unknown

@vox

lol


i think he refers to this link: To Break Free


http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=6¬e=16510


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Franko 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 22-Sep-2011 23:30:01
#5 ]
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Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

@AmigaBlitter


Quote:

AmigaBlitter wrote:
@vox

lol


i think he refers to this link: To Break Free


http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=6Če=16510




Hmmm... that old chestnut...

Course as the original poster still hasn't made clear just what he want's "cleared up" then he can have this answer to some long asked questions that are long overdue for "clearing up"...

When you read through all the claims and counter claims by all parties involved since the "sell off" of Commodre/ Amiga and the very dubious German court cases which any good lawyer could shoot full of holes, the one thing that is clear from it all there is no company/ buyer/ investor (not even the original firm who handled the "liquidation") who could stand up in any court of law in any country and prove ownership of anything in this entire sorry saga.

There are too many unanswered questions, no legal documentation of proof of ownership, too many claims that went by the statuary time limits and were then "illegally" allowed to stand and passed by regional courts who were simply wrong in their judgements as the statutory time limit had passed making these judgements illegal and void in the eyes of any court of law.

It's all there for anyone to see if you have the time and patience to track it all down and read through it all very, very carefully but really there is no actual need to do that (unless you really just want to be sure).

The simplest way to once and for all find out if anyone can genuinely prove they own any intellectual property, trademark or legal rights to anything that came from the original Commodore/ Amiga stable is quite simply for as many Amiga users as possible to set up websites and place everything they possibly can from Workbench Disk Sets to Amiga Rom images etc.. on them as free downloads available to all and make this fact well known on sites such as this, as well as sending details of your intentions to each and every company who has ever claimed to own any rights and see what happens.

From very recent personal experience with Cloanto who illegally made a false claim to Mediafire to have some Workbench disk sets of mine removed from being hosted on the Mediafire's site. I can assure you the only thing Cloanto can lay claim too for now, is the Trademark "Workbench" they do not however own ANY RIGHTS to the actual contents of the original Workbench disks.

They still have failed even after all these months to provide my site hosts NamesCo's legal department with any proof whatsoever of their false claim they made against me to NamesCo in which they tried to block me from making available the Workbench disk sets.

As such NamesCo having asked Cloanto for proof of ownership and Cloanto not being able to provide any proof whatsoever, I am now free to make available once again ALL Workbench Disk Sets for free download until someone who can genuinely prove ownership comes forward and makes a complaint they can back up with legal proof of ownership.

One last thing make sure before you do so, that you send in writing or via email a letter of intention to all parties you think may have a claim in this (if you can contact them that is) ie: Amiga INC, Escom etc...

There is no need or point in contacting Cloanto of your intentions as the only thing they can lay claim to is the trademark "Workbench" and they have already proven by their inability to provide legal proof of ownership of anything else in this matter.

Put it this way after I had already done this earlier this year, the only one company who came forward was Cloanto but as I say their claims to anything other than the trademark "Workbench" have been proven false and Cloanto's illegal claim against me that I was distributing the Workbench Disk Sets which they claimed they owned and had exclusive distribution rights too have been proven false and basically downright lies.

All this in order that they can try and make a quick buck by being the only ones allowed to distribute Workbench and not for free like I am doing but charging people for it.

Think folk would be very surprised at the blatant lies they have been getting fed all these years in the Amiga Community. If you really want to find out the truth that most of the original companies don't actually care anymore about anything Amiga and the only ones that are still robbing the corpse are companies like Cloanto, then do as I have done put it all online free to download, follow the steps I have mentioned above and wait, you'll soon find out the truth fro yourself and just who really is still shafting the Amiga Community to this very day...

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vox 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 22-Sep-2011 23:34:58
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@AmigaBlitter

Well, to best we know, Amiga Inc did had rights to AmigaOS 3.1
transfered from ESCOM which was basis for AmigaOS 4.x

OS 3.5 and 3.9 were as we know developed by Haage & Partner and because
of some remaining unpaid contracts and issues, Amiga Inc never had
sources of it (was denied of it). Sadly, this is the reason why some OS 3.9 features
are not present even in current AmigaOS 4.1.3

As we know Amiga Inc`s were step by step getting to be more shady bussiness, but did not downfall as FreeAmiga wants: just started selling the name for tablets and CUSA`s PC experiments in vivo. And seems will continue afterlife on it.

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number6 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 22-Sep-2011 23:45:09
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11415
From: In the village

@vox

Actually, there are listings now for the Amiga televisions too.

http://www.icontainstore.com/categories/Hardware/PC-Televisions/

#6

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number6 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 22-Sep-2011 23:53:43
#8 ]
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Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11415
From: In the village

@number6

hmm...

http://www.icontainstore.com/categories/Hardware/All%252dIn%252dOne-Computers/

Amiga AIO from IContain?

I thought Amiga branded AIO was an exclusive license for C=USA.

What am I missing here?

#6

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vox 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 23-Sep-2011 7:24:36
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@number6

Quote:
What am I missing here?


Seems to be unlimited ability of Amiga Inc to sell the name
without much ability to present who are all the licencees (even CUSA is not mentioned)

For now, its good they are keeping it with hardware and not for toys, cups etc.

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Nimrod 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 23-Sep-2011 9:28:00
#10 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1221
From: Untied Kingdom

@amitv

Can someone make it clear once and for all ? I thought that someone already did

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DAX 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 23-Sep-2011 10:09:06
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Franko
It simply depends on how interesting you are to Amiga Inc (cloanto doesn't count) and simply put, you are not interesting to them.
Amiga Inc. has sued a ton of companies in the past (some with success some not), and if judges don't seem to have a problem with their claims of total ownership there must be a reason.
Try marketing a new product with the name Amiga and see what happens...(then you will suddenly become an interesting person for them, for now, live with the fact you are not ).

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 23-Sep-2011 10:47:59
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3499
From: Unknown

@DAX

One of the AmigaOS biggest disadvantage is that the situation still unclear for the masses. This prevents any company that could be (eventually) interested in Amiga today.
And, let me say all.... we are late. Although some progress has been made, we are really late. Many enthusiast have left since years. What really remain of Amiga? Join the forces is the last shore, imho.

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DAX 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 23-Sep-2011 11:15:42
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@AmigaBlitter
Being realistic one good thing that can happen is that through healthy competition we get more modern solutions fast (specially from now on) while on the other side, we Amigans, learn to respect each other even if we prefer a different Amiga Paradigm.
The community still has its fare share of overgrown brat-scoundrels still wearing their baseball hats turned over, thinking they're hip while breaking everybody's nuts and never learning we would just like to have some fun with our hobbies (and not waste our time with endless quarrels).

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 23-Sep-2011 12:25:23
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3499
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:
Being realistic one good thing that can happen is that through healthy competition we get more modern solutions fast (specially from now on) while on the other side, we Amigans, learn to respect each other even if we prefer a different Amiga Paradigm.


In my opinion this will not help much. We have passed in some ways, since time, what we can call "the point of no return". If joining the platforms, all current Amiga flavours (AOS, MOS, AROS, Classic), we can hope to count the "overestimated" 10.000 amiga users. Prices must absolutely drop down (and it's not so easy) to facilitate newcomer and returner. On the software side there is the extreme need of an office suite, java, OpenGL and a full feature Browser.

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Franko 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 23-Sep-2011 13:55:15
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:

DAX wrote:
@Franko
It simply depends on how interesting you are to Amiga Inc (cloanto doesn't count) and simply put, you are not interesting to them.
Amiga Inc. has sued a ton of companies in the past (some with success some not), and if judges don't seem to have a problem with their claims of total ownership there must be a reason.
Try marketing a new product with the name Amiga and see what happens...(then you will suddenly become an interesting person for them, for now, live with the fact you are not ).



I think your missing the point here, I am not talking about the trademarks "Amiga" or "Workbench" as Amiga Inc own the "Amiga" trademark and Cloanto own the "Workebench" one.

I am talking about who can genuinely prove they own the intellectual property rights/ copyrights to the software/ hardware side of things like the actual content of the Workbench disks or the Kickstart roms for example.

No one, not even Amiga Inc has been able to provide clear indisputable evidence that they do own any of these rights. You said it yourself Amiga Inc has sued companies in the past but NOT always successfully.

Why would that be... simple, the only ones they sued successfully were because the they had use the trademark "Amiga" but in all other cases Amiga Inc were never once forced to produce in court conclusive proof of ownership of any IP or copyrights concerning hardware or software.

Most of the small fry they have threatened in the past have simply backed down as they thought they wouldn't stand a chance against Amiga Inc in a court of law but if you follow the entire sorry saga from the beginning you will find that since the shambles of the liquidation of Commodore Amiga, that because of the "illegalities" that occurred with statutory time limits being missed and then later "illegal" rights being sold after the statutory time limits had passed. Almost all of what has been bought and sold in regard to IP/ copyrights of the original Commodore Amiga is basically null & void and any decent lawyer or legal team who takes the time to look back through everything from the beginning could easily prove this in a court of law.

None of this concerns me however as I continue to distribute freely the disk sets and kickstart rom images and apart from Cloanto not one other party has challenged me on this. As far as Cloanto goes all I have to do is make sure I do not distribute them using the "Workbench" trademark as they don't own any rights whatsoever to the contents, so they are simply distributed as WB disk sets.

At the end of it all Amiga Inc are only interested in the "Amiga" name and trying to scrape every last buck out of it they can, the guys on ebay for instance constantly selling day in day out 3.1 Kickstart roms have never been challenged as no one cares as these involve a physical product that's never going to make a lot of money and Amiga Inc can quite easily continue making money just by trading on the name of Amiga and not actually producing anything.

It's all quite laughable and pathetic to be honest after all these years and like I said before everyone who still cares about the Amiga should do the same as I am doing, no-one will sue you and if anyone ever attempts to then they had better be able to prove in a court of law beyond all doubt that they are the IP/ copyright owners.

It's never going to happen of course as no-one can or has been able to even up to now and if in some bizarre twist after all these years some entity did step forward with all the legal proof required, then all those years of question would finally be answered and we would then all know just who really has been responsible for the downfall of the Amiga after the Commodore era.

PS: I'm quite happy being "of no concern" to any of them as it allows me to distribute freely what I want without the hassle of some greedy corpse raider trying to sue me cos I'm preventing them from making a quick buck...

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Chuckt 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 23-Sep-2011 14:02:12
#16 ]
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Joined: 22-Feb-2008
Posts: 445
From: Unknown

@vox

Quote:

What should be made clear? While boards are produced, software
side is being worked on. No one knows exactly when Natami will be out
for end users, price is estimated to ~500-700 euros range for motherboard if remembered it well.

So even the most powerful 68k won`t be cheap



No one has said what the price will be. I can't even get an answer what the original boards cost in parts alone.

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Shufflepuck 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 23-Sep-2011 14:20:20
#17 ]
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Joined: 24-Sep-2009
Posts: 643
From: Home

@number6

As I see it: IContain AIOs are All-In-One-Monitor, while CUSA's All-In-One-Keyboard. Can't wait for All-In-One-PSU or All-In-One-Capslock.

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DAX 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 23-Sep-2011 15:56:47
#18 ]
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Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Franko
The fact they didn't win all lawsuits is more related to them being at fault on contracts, but make no mistake, you're allowed to do as you please, as long as you don't become a real bother to Amiga Inc. (as I said Cloanto doesn't count) if/when you do it's the day you'll receive bad news in the mail.
The fact you are not bothering Ainc at the moment isn't proof of anything I'm afraid.

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Mechanic 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 23-Sep-2011 16:29:06
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@Franko

Quote:

It's all quite laughable and pathetic to be honest after all these years and like I said before everyone who still cares about the Amiga should do the same as I am doing, no-one will sue you and if anyone ever attempts to then they had better be able to prove in a court of law beyond all doubt that they are the IP/ copyright owners.


If Ainc showed up in court with proof that they have the source code to 3.5 and 3.9 would that
mean that they lied to the courts in the first place, many years ago?

Best thing they could do now with any of their claims is to burn any proof and continue
hoodwinking everyone they can. Perhaps all they bought was new clothing for the emperor ,

and maybe that is all they have to sell.

Last edited by Mechanic on 23-Sep-2011 at 04:30 PM.

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Franko 
Re: Can someone make it clear once and for all ?
Posted on 23-Sep-2011 16:49:24
#20 ]
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Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

@DAX

I don't think the statement that "I'm allowed to do as I please" is quite true as I believe there must some entity out there who could prove ownership of things like the Workbench disk sets or the IP of the Kickstart ROMS but after many months of trying to contact all who could possibly be the potential owners, neither myself my solicitors or NamesCo's legal dept have had received one single bit of correspondence in reply to any attempts to contact them.

From this we can only reasonably conclude that they either couldn't care less about someone making these things available for free or that they cannot in fact prove ownership.

So apart from the fact I will continue to do so and that it doesn't seem likely anyone will ever come forward it's all pretty pointless all these forums and posts full of "Who owns what" threads.

It's way past time to stop speculating about them and for genuine Amiga users to just go ahead and distribute such things freely (with no money involved) and allow the last of us users to continue to enjoy all things Amiga without forum owners and moderators saying you can't provide links or where such stuff can be freely downloaded as I have satisfactorily proven to myself that no-one actually cares anymore.

I just find it absurd after all this time that the Amiga community still lives under this pretence that we can't mention things like that despite the fact the vast majority of us know where such stuff can be download freely but we dare not mention it cos someone might get into trouble.

It's time for all to realise that not even the potential owners don't care anymore, it's like a lot of people never speak the word Cancer when talking about someone's health and instead use the term "he or she has the big C" it's absurd, dumb and just downright silly.

Things never move on or get solved as long as people conveniently bury their heads in the sand or wear blinkers and pretend such thing don't happen even though they know they do. Fortunately I'm not one of them, never seen the point in beating about the bush or keeping secrets, I like to say it as it is and if that upsets some folk then that's their problem not mine.

Amiga Inc are welcome to the trademark "Amiga" as I have no intention of launching any kind of product using that name. To me it's just simply about the absurdity of it all and making these things freely available to the last of us Amiga users who are the only ones left with any use for them...

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