@T_Bone

The installed base on an x86 based OS has vastly greater potential than the 2000+/- Eyetech has been able to manage, and who knows how many boards Eyetech will decide to make in the future. Developers wonder, then they leave for greener pastures.

I don't think the state of the installed userbase on the x86 platform (Windows or Linux) has any relevance to Amiga's success or demise in regards to PowerPC or x86.

If AmigaOS were x86 based, would developers have to wonder if the installed base had a cap to it, as it seems to now?

We'll see how successful Apple is with its transition from PowerPC to Intel. There is speculation now that there is even less reason to develop software for Mac and Windows when they both reside on the same CPU architecture. Steve Ballmer even made that statement. Again, we'll see what happens there.

The hardware's there though. Does a port being "easy" justify a port to a platform you can't buy a board for? I could be wrong, but it looks like when OS4 is released, there won't be any boards readily available for purchase to run it. The AmigaOne is still less available and harder to find than the classic Amiga's it was meant to replace.

I think it would be suicidal for Amiga (right now) to be ported to x86 because of the vast amount of different motherboards and chipsets to support. And let's face it, people expect everything to work when cobbling together an x86 box, and the Amiga (and its resources) just doesn't have the capacity to meet that requirement. Linux is just now becoming very good at plug-n-play with most hardware components and the Linux developer community far exceeds the size of the Amiga developer community and the fact that Linux has major corporate backing by the likes of IBM, HP and Intel (to name a few).

If the boards were readily available and cheap, an x86 port might be moot, but they're not, and it's not.

Well once Amiga OS4 makes its major release debut, then the interests and seriousness of those wanting to buy an Amiga will become greater and more clear. But here is the other major hurdle; increasing the amount of ISVs to the Amiga developer community. The success of any computer platform relies on its amount and availability of software and the many categories to fill with software titles. The recruiting of Amiga coders from both the inside and the outside (of the community) is a necessity as well as a major priority. Applications need to be created to fulfill the needs of many. People want plenty of choice in regards to apps and what they do (a solution to a problem). Creating simple, but useful applications is not hard. It all starts with a simple idea and then you add the complexity as the application evolves due to customer demand and feature requests/updates.

Last edited by AmigaMac on 26-Jun-2005 at 06:58 PM.

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@T_Bone

Quote:

If AmigaOS were x86 based, would developers have to wonder if the installed base had a cap to it, as it seems to now?

Certainly, Amithlon, being x86 based, didn't change a thing.

Quote:

?

The point is, it seems to be the general consensus that if a program is already running on CPU xxx, then the operating system would be meaningless. This is of course completely wrong. Therefore, it doesn't matter if a program is already available on MacOS, it doesn't make porting substantially easier. Likewise, only because a potential AmigaOS x86 already runs on x86, it wouldn't make porting any easier, because the major obstacle are API related; endian issues are rather minor.

Quote:

Does a port being "easy" justify a port to a platform you can't buy a board for?

Someone wanting to port a program to OS 4 already has the hardware, so this point is totally moot.

Again, everybody seems to think that if AmigaOS ran on x86, we would suddenly have a million users again. I wonder where you get these ideas from.

Quote:

I could be wrong, but it looks like when OS4 is released, there won't be any boards readily available for purchase to run it.

You are wrong.

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If the boards were readily available and cheap, an x86 port might be moot, but they're not, and it's not.

You simply don't get it, do you?

It seems to be a general problem to make you people understand that the Desktop market cannot dictate the selection of CPU. I would really like to think otherwise, but I don't see any bigger market for AmigaOS on x86.

The major focus must remain the embedded market. We do desktop because we like it and we need a platform, but in the end, the desktop will never finance the project. The embedded market will.

In the embedded market, x86 is non-existent.

But even if it wheren't for the embedded market, I would still firmly belive in PowerPC and the CELL as the future of AmigaOS. It is my opinion (and I don't really care if Steve Jobs says otherwise) that CELL will be the next big thing in multimedia and desktop computing.

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@T_Bone

Quote:

The installed base on an x86 based OS has vastly greater potential than the 2000+/- Eyetech has been able to manage, and who knows how many boards Eyetech will decide to make in the future. Developers wonder, then they leave for greener pastures.

For Windows, yes. For anyone else, no.

Besides, since you obviously didn't: Read my post again. I did not say PPC is better than x86. In fact, I didn't even mention PPC. I just said that it doesn't matter whether you have an x86 or no, porting software to AmigaOS isn't all about the CPU. This is only a minor part.

Of course, you use this again to convert this thread into the stupid old x86 vs PPC discussion again... Ok, so be it... here's my opinion on this again.

Quote:

If AmigaOS were x86 based, would developers have to wonder if the installed base had a cap to it, as it seems to now

Yes, they would. Because everybody would use Windows, anyway. The idea of having Amiga developers compete against Windows is ridiculous. If people don't get software for AmigaOS, they use the Windows counterparts. Add to this a Windows emulator running on AmigaOS/x86, and you basically kill every commercial software development. See Linux: Wine basically killed off the whole Linux games market. There are next to no Linux games compaines left. Hyperion used to do Linux ports, as well as Loki (a very big company, mind you), Tribsoft, etc.

So where's your miraculous software flood for Linux, which is surely much more wide spread than AmigaOS ? Sure, there's a lot of open source development, but that is something unique to Linux since it's influenced by Linux' very own open source mindset. You won't get that on any other OS.

FYI, our Amiga games outsold every Linux game by a factor of 1 sold Linux copy per 10 sold Amiga copies. So your logic seems flawed.

In other words, the whole x86 discussion is based on a myth. PPC or x86 will not change a single thing, right to the contrary, it is our firm believe that moving to x86 is suicide.

Now, somebody probably wants to bring up Apple again, and their recent move to x86. To this, I can say two things:

1. Apple has announced this; they have not yet made that move. Before you applaud Apple, let's see where it leads them. In two or three yeards time, when Apple's x86 machiens are out, THEN you can judge the value of the move. If they are doing fine with their machine then you can say it was the right decision. But they might as well have dug their own grave.

2. Apple already has a name, and a competitive OS. Everybody "knows" that Windows sucks and OS X is better (Just visit /. and you'll know ;). So Apple actucally has a weapon to attack Windows. Still, they are IMHO subject to the same problem, namely that people will try to boot it alongisde Windows, either through emulation or genuine booting. Some software that would be made available to Mac OSX will not be done because of this.

Well, whatever your beliefs in the everlasting, neverending x86 vs PPC debate, only time could really tell whether you're right or wrong. Hyperion had it's own experiences on the Linux market. Other examples of faliure are everywhere. Steven Jobs himself already killed off NextStep by going away from their own hardware to x86 (and now, he might fry NextStep a second time). Be failed. Linux isn't a market, no matter what the enthusiasts tell you (FYI, a "market" is something where you make money.. the amount of people using it doesn't mean anything if nobody buys software).

And I'm not going into things like the embedded market, in wich x86 has no meaning whatsoever.

Well, this whole thing has been discussed ad nauseam, and still people come up with it again and again. Hyperion made it's decision based upon _EXPERIENCE_ in this field. Something that most of you x86 supporteds can't claim to have, especially since all your arguments are easily dispelled. This discussion is utterly fruitless, and I'm not going to discuss this any longer. NO ONE has ever come up with a conclusive argument for x86, and I have my doubts that someone ever will.

Note please that I'm not officially speaking for Hyperion here. This is my own opinion, but it widely corresponds to Hyperion's opinion.

Draw your own conclusions, but know that I will not discuss this again. I'm really sick and tired of this discussion.

End of discussion for me.

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Thomas, the kernel guy

"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment