@retro

Quote:

whats worng with IBM 970 PPC

There's nothing "wrong" with that, it's just going to cost more. While Genesi's just announced dual-970MP board sounds neat, I wouldn't look forward to the credit card bill that month...


Quote:

whot do you wanna do with pci-x raser card wih only 33 mzh

Olegil is doing a PCI-Express riser, which is not PCI-X. Why not? While the 33MHz PCI bus might not be as fast as a PCIe card can go, you can at least plug one in and have it work. Kindof for those guys saying they don't want to track down a PCI graphics card and have some AGP fetish, they could this way get a PCI-Express graphics card and have it work... Or as classic PCI peripheral cards might become less common in general in the next 5 years as PCIe takes over, you can plug in PCIe sound, TV tuner, firewire, SATA, etc. cards and have them work, driver permitting of course.

Maybe we'll have a motherboard with PCIe native by then, that would be extremely cool. Maybe not, who knows. If not, this can help keep this Troika thing useful for longer.

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@billt

a duel 970, make it and wee bay it.
wee paid an arm for the xe and i was outdated allready,
just bring it on the marked and i will be pay for it...

@retro

Quote:

retro wrote: @billt a duel 970, make it and wee bay it. wee paid an arm for the xe and i was outdated allready, just bring it on the marked and i will be pay for it...

Don't hold your breath on that one- a $3000USD (estimated) mobo for a tiny market would be business suicide and has already been discussed many times. It also has little to nothing to do with Troika or their FAQ

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@wegster

Quote:

It also has little to nothing to do with Troika or their FAQ

On the surface, no, but I was replying to someone wondering why Troika didn't do a 970 board, at least that was my interpretation of that comment. And Troikas reason for choosing the G3 and 107 chips was to keep costs down as much as they could for their first product, where if Troika had chosen a 970 design as their first it'd cost a lot more than their current actual specs will cost. It does tie in at some point...

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@billt

Quote:

billt wrote: @wegster Quote: It also has little to nothing to do with Troika or their FAQ On the surface, no, but I was replying to someone wondering why Troika didn't do a 970 board, at least that was my interpretation of that comment. And Troikas reason for choosing the G3 and 107 chips was to keep costs down as much as they could for their first product, where if Troika had chosen a 970 design as their first it'd cost a lot more than their current actual specs will cost. It does tie in at some point...

Sure- I didn't mean your comment, but the 'make us a dual 970 board' like it's 'no big deal' etc etc.

Without a reference board and without making (tens of?)thousands of them, I _so_ don't think a 'dual 970MP' is a sane thought, no matter how much some people may thing they want one (without knowing what the end user price would wind up at).

It will be interesting to see what happens with Freescale (and other?) reference boards over time, but the current Amy05 makes sense from a lot of standpoints..

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@retro

Quote:

@billt a duel 970, make it and wee buy it. wee paid an arm for the xe and i was outdated already, just bring it on the marked and i will be pay for it...

I don't fully agree whit that, the XE is nice, it can be expanded, if some one writes a driver for a usb 2.0 or Firewire pci card the AmigaOne-XE can too have support for that, I think 2.0 should be support on board this days. other then that the Toika uses same type of RAM, the same sound chips, the only tiny difference is on board flash memory and different north chip controlling it.

The XE and Troika have it's up's and down's, Troika is not an upgrade.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Sep-2005 at 09:25 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @retro Quote: @billt a duel 970, make it and wee buy it. wee paid an arm for the xe and i was outdated already, just bring it on the marked and i will be pay for it... I don't fully agree whit that, the XE is nice, it can be expanded, if some one writes a driver for a usb 2.0 or Firewire pci card the AmigaOne-XE can too have support for that, I think 2.0 should be support on board this days. other then that the Toika uses same type of RAM, the same sound chips, the only tiny difference is on board flash memory and different north chip controlling it. The XE and Troika have it's up's and down's, Troika is not an upgrade.

If it wil run linux, without multiplied hundreds of how-2 posts, and without tearing out ones hair, then it is a major upgrade. Free linux apps just keep getting better, not more expensive!
8')

I wonder how many boards would have to be made in one run to hit the $400 per board price point.

@wegster

Quote:

Without a reference board

Eh? There's several reference boards for the 970 including IBM's own JS20 blade.


Quote:

without making (tens of?)thousands of them, I _so_ don't think a 'dual 970MP' is a sane thought, no matter how much some people may thing they want one (without knowing what the end user price would wind up at).

Even at 90nm the 970MP isn't that big and I believe it uses the same NB as the standard 970FX.

At 65nm (which they should move to fairly rapidly) the 970MP should be smaller and a lot cheaper.
With Apple moving to Intel IBM need sales so they may not be as expensive as you may think.

In any case I expect Genesi to use lower clocked parts than Apple so they should be considerably cheaper - it won't be in Trokia's range but then neither will it's performance. That said I doubt it'll cost anything near $3000.

Last edited by minator on 30-Sep-2005 at 12:58 AM.

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Whyzzat?

@opi

Quote:

If it's going happend without licence from Amiga INC, then we see some double standards OR good news, since the licence for other boards (Pegasos II, Efika, ATH) wouldn't be needed, too.

If they can keep out of suing Amiga Inc. for no reason and not trying to take over the Amiga trademarks and the community, they might have a very good chance in getting OS4 running on the board. Depends wether they'll resist the urge or not I guess.

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@minator

Quote:

There's several reference boards for the 970 including IBM's own JS20 blade.

Yep, I'm familiar with the JS20. Didn't know it's available for purchase as a reference board though? Of course, you know that's not likely to work out of the box, as the blade edge connectors are absolutely nothing like a desktop board.

The only other reference board I'm aware of is the Momentus board? Well ok, it seems there are two- the XSC-100 and the XSA-200 for 97X chips, can't tell if one has actually been built yet. And what would these cost to produce say 1000 boards? I'd love to have one, but would NOT like to have to pay for one. Not now anyways..

Quote:

In any case I expect Genesi to use lower clocked parts than Apple so they should be considerably cheaper - it won't be in Trokia's range but then neither will it's performance. That said I doubt it'll cost anything near $3000.

So what would you guestimate retail at then? And of course, there's the factor of when? Right now, OS4 needs boards..an inexpensive board using commodity easily obtained parts is perfect for right now. I'd wager I'd expect to see the Amy05 before the Genesi board...which is [b]not[/a] a slam here...and yes, the $3k may be a bit high, but we'll see..I threw that number out there assuming the company was going to actually make a profit on it as well. I'd _hope_ it could be done for half that (retail), perhaps with a single CPU (if using the dual CPU Momentum board), as there's no point (for OS4) right now for multiple CPUs.

Someone else posted some info after following up on the Momentum board(s?), I may go try to dig it back up.

Regardless, OS4 needs hardware now, not in a year...and I just don't see even a single CPU, non dual core/MP G5 board going for a sane price with the company making a profit, and being available in a reasonable length of time...not to mention running OS4.

Of course, if someone wants to pull a CPU from the Momentum board, get OS4 ported, and sell if for $1500 or less, some people would buy it, and they'd also have a PPC Linux board.

I still think the Troika is 'just fine' for right now. (and would have said the same about Peg II if that ever managed to happen.)

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

@billt a duel 970, make it and wee buy it. wee paid an arm for the xe and i was outdated already, just bring it on the marked and i will be pay for it...

You misquoted in comment 46, I didn't say that. retro did in comment 42

Last edited by billt on 30-Sep-2005 at 01:53 AM.

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The FAQ has been updated again.

They say how wonderful the latency is but completely forget to mention bandwidth.

...at least they have someone who understands sales

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Whyzzat?

@jahc

Quote:

by jahc on 29-Sep-2005 3:19:12 @thread $400 USD is a pretty kick ass price though. Thats $555 NZD... very affordable. I think I paid about $1400 NZD for my A1XE-G3 mobo. If they make a model with a faster CPU available, I'd almost want to switch. I'm aware of the various disadvantages, but for my needs it wouldnt matter.

If you decided to do that, let me know! I may want your XE.

Firbodi

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@minator
Quote:

They say how wonderful the latency is but completely forget to mention bandwidth.

Not really.
Quote:

...next to latency, all other memory features only offer secondary performance benefits.

So they believe latency to be the primary driver for performance. Considering how crazy people used to get between 60ns and 70ns RAM in the days of old they just might be correct. I don't know myself but I'm certain some hardware junky will speak up soon enough.

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@ssolie

In this specific case they are probably correct. Processors like the 750FX that have a shallow pipeline and large caches are generally much more sensitive to latency than transfer rate, to the extent that a mature, optimised SDR memory controller can yield better performance than a less mature DDR design operating at the same clock.

A classic example of this was when the first DDR chipsets for the AMD Athlon arrived. Their first-generation DDR controllers were often beaten in benchmarks by VIA's KT133A chipset, who's SDR controller had gone through several revisions and was really rather good.

The Discovery II's memory performance doesn't seem to be any great shakes, so the same situation may be happening here. Whatever, at least the TSI107 should be a heck of a lot faster than the miserable excuse for a memory controller on the Articia S.

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@nicomen:

Please remember the original reason they went to court was to shut up those
voices from official sides, who liked to claim in public that morphos were a
pirate story. This was not bearable.

I don't want to discuss the attempted legal stunt with regards to OS4, but now
after things cooled up there is at least an offer to ship a OS4 ODW the same
way they are doing for a number of other development communities, meaning $50
of sales proceeds go to the OS development party (Hyperion) which could either
be taken as cash support for OS4 development, to develop/include some dongle
(USB?) or level the playing ground a bit compared to the "free" Operating
Systems on Pegasos.

@wegster:

>The only other reference board I'm aware of is the Momentus board?
>Well ok, it seems there are two- the XSC-100 and the XSA-200 for 97X chips

Don't forget the original Maple-C and Maple-D development boards.

>I threw that number out there assuming the company was going to actually make
>a profit on it as well.

We all know about Apple's margins and they seem to sell complete iMac G5
replacement boards for some 700USD (has been mentioned in connection with iMac
defects due to popping capacitors etc).

>with the company making a profit, and being available in a reasonable length
>of time...not to mention running OS4.

Ah, the licence issues...Mr Redhouse once mentioned licences (AInc/Hyperion)
accounted for 25% of the resale price.

Suppose I buy a Troika, what PCI video cards are available "NEW" for my new Mobo? PCI video cards are getting harder to find, especially if you want new.

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@wolfe

You should be able to find a Radeon 9250 or similar at any online computer store. And a Radeon 9250 with 128MB should really be enough.

@wolfe
with Olegils riser we should be able to use X class cards

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