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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
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Poll : What do you prefer?
Memory protection
To be able to run old programs
 
PosterThread
Zardoz 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 7-Nov-2005 23:23:39
#41 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@RacerX

With the current API, there are no MP-safe programs.

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FuZion 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 0:09:32
#42 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Nov-2003
Posts: 1962
From: Birmingham, England

@elwood

I had to think for a moment on this one. PURELY because with full MP Cinema4D may never work again (Maybe it would though, I dunno) which would be a great shame becausse it's such a good program. Seriously, this was the first thing I thought.

Looking at the bigger picture though, it's all about future software & most other things I'd be happy to use with E-UAE.

FuZion.

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Samwel 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 0:16:44
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@AMiGR

Any reason why the programmers couldn't recompile them?
You know this wouldn't happens over night as a surprise for everyone
and with no possible way to somehow turn it off or in some other way
run 68k apps safely. I don't think Hyperion would be that crazy..


@Thread

Btw isn't resource tracking pretty important if this is going to work
on AmigaOS?! Keeping track of everything and possibly redirect any
misbehaving software (if possible)..

I'm all for MP but not for 4.0. 4.0 needs to be released WITH no problems
whatsoever running 68k apps IMHO.
If it's optional then go a head implement it as it will certainly be useful
to embedded stuff for increased stability.

Last edited by Samwel on 08-Nov-2005 at 12:35 AM.

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Samwel 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 0:22:01
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@FuZion

Well if we pay Mr Drummond he may finish the JIT for PPC and make
E-UAE a hell of a lot faster and useful for certain older software.

Maybe E-UAE could somehow be incorporated more heavily into OS4,
starting automatically and acting like a sandbox for each started app.
But then again what would be the use of the current 68k emulator?!?

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Zardoz 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 0:22:01
#45 ]
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Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@Samwel

Quote:
Any reason why the programmers couldn't recompile them?
You know this wouldn't happens over night as a surprise for everyone
and with no possible way to somehow turn it off or in some other way
run 68k apps safely.


I won't pretend to be an expert but I don't think that any recompile would fix that, software would require serious and sometimes very heavy modifications.

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Samwel 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 0:29:18
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@AMiGR

Yeah for full MP. But we all know full MP is almost out of the question.
For now anyway. I was thinking a little more MP than today.
Changing sources for memory handling and recompiling should be
simpler than rewriting a completely new piece of software for full MP.

I think most users of AmigaOS don't really care for MP as long as the
OS is stable and somehow badly behaving software don't crash the
system or any other software. Yeah I know this is what MP is all about
But alot could be done to improve the current system, as the Bros have
commented on multiple times here on AW.

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jahc 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 0:36:27
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-May-2003
Posts: 2959
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@thread

I remember Rogue mentioning something about an API for shared copy memory areas..

I hope it wont be too hard to adapt WookieChat, RockBEAT and SimplePlay to the new MP AmigaOS 4.x. I think it'd be a great idea if they released this MP OS to the developers maybe a year in advance so we could start porting out stuff over first.

This poll is a tough one. We need MP to be successfull in the future, but if we go that way, we'd also need OS4.x developers to pop up out of nowhere and start making apps. Hows that going to happen? Also, OS4 has not been decided as the best way to go by existing Amiga users.. some opt for AROS, some for MOS, etc.. when OS4.x gets full MP I feel even more people may pass it over for the alternatives. But we really do need MP.

I dont like the idea of a sandbox for an OS3.x style API with a newer environment with an all new API. I want the future AmigaOS to have a similar API, not be all new. Thats why I'm not so keen on MOS. :/ I've probably got that a bit wrong somehow, thats just what I've picked up from people. No offence to the MOS guys though, seems like a nice OS!

We NEED MP - the question is how are we going to get new software??

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 0:40:48
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12856
From: Norway

@Samwel

Quote:
Maybe E-UAE could somehow be incorporated more heavily into OS4,
starting automatically and acting like a sandbox for each started app.
But then again what would be the use of the current 68k emulator?!?


so way not just keep the old API, add a new API for new programs ?

you know AmigaOS4 supports multi api's right (Interfaces)

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Offa 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 7:55:55
#49 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Feb-2004
Posts: 139
From: Sweden

What a thread...

As usual, we have problems due to word definitions. What is memory protection? What do people mean when they say memory protection?

If we mean that each and every task lives in its own address space, not accessible by other tasks, we should forget about it. The very core ideas of the OS makes that impossible, and I think it is a good thing. AmigaOS Is Not Unix (TM).

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olegil 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 8:13:11
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Offa

Why impossible, and why is less security a good thing? Explain, please.

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Offa 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 9:17:51
#51 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Feb-2004
Posts: 139
From: Sweden

@olegil

Well, it's not really possible to pass a pointer to memory the other task can't read. The message-passing idiom would have to go away, unless you implement some kind of "can only be read by tasks xyz". Hmm, that WOULD be an idea

The thing I am referring to as good is that the message passing mechanism is one of the things that build the identity of the platform. It's not that I explicitly like less security.

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Frags 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 10:39:24
#52 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2004
Posts: 971
From: East-Midlands (Nottingham) UK

@Samwel

Quote:

Samwel wrote:
@FuZion

Maybe E-UAE could somehow be incorporated more heavily into OS4,
starting automatically and acting like a sandbox for each started app.
But then again what would be the use of the current 68k emulator?!?


Good plan...but how long until some clever-dick demands the OS4 source?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 10:41:21
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12856
From: Norway

@Offa

I most half way agree whit you there, no if programs are forced to copy memory block to communicate whit etch other, then we get slower system, that eats more memory, it’s not just Classic vs Memory protection it’s allow, Classic vs “API that harder to use and is generally slower.”

I think we need to be where careful what we wish fore, I hope some areas can be improved and some areas can be left as is, to be more precise I hope inter communication between says the same, and hope window framework is improved so it can be closed safely, as this is system resource in my mind.

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falemagn 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 10:48:39
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

I think you can move slowly on the way to memory protection, no need to add full memory protection over night


Actually no, you can't "move slowly". You either have MP, or you don't. You either break everything, or you don't.

The only viable option is to freeze the current API, put it in a sandbox, and start coding for a new API.

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Amigo1 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 11:16:15
#55 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1582
From: the Clouds

@elwood
Quote:

I just thought there were not enough polls these days




@Steff
Quote:

It may seem so but the only reason for keeping backwards compatibility at this time is to insure that a minimum of programs are available when the new OS is ready.


I agree with you, therefore I meant "full" MP should not come at least before 4.1. As wegster says we can not wait another year holding breath until OS4 ports of software are done.

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Offa 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 12:04:10
#56 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Feb-2004
Posts: 139
From: Sweden

@Amigo1

What do you mean when you say "full MP"? I believe there is a lot of talk going on about this by people who should keep their mouths shut. I'm not necessarily referring to you.

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EntilZha 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 12:13:56
#57 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 27-Aug-2003
Posts: 1679
From: The Jedi Academy, Yavin 4

@AMiGR

Quote:
With the current API, there are no MP-safe programs.


Alright, which API is not MP safe ? One example, please.

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EntilZha 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 12:17:23
#58 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 27-Aug-2003
Posts: 1679
From: The Jedi Academy, Yavin 4

@Offa

Quote:
As usual, we have problems due to word definitions. What is memory protection? What do people mean when they say memory protection?


That's indeed the problem.

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"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

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Hammer 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 12:40:57
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5595
From: Australia

@Steff

Quote:
Windows is hardly backwards compatible from one revision to another.

The purpose of WOW (Windows On Window) layer is for legacy application support (not design for kernel level drivers). This is important for biz applications. The latest version of WOW is WOW64 (in support of HW IA-32 compatibility mode) i.e. this enables Win32 applications to run on Windows XP X64 edition. The old WOW enables Win16 applications to run on Windows 9x/NT/2K/XP IA-32 edition.

Another example legacy support is DDE for application automation. The old DDE(displaced by OLE) mechanism is still being supported by Windows XP.

Additional legacy support can be via VMWARE/DOSBox/MS VirtualPC/etc and soon from HW virtualization e.g. Intel Vanderpool and AMD Pacifica.

Last edited by Hammer on 08-Nov-2005 at 12:58 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Nov-2005 at 12:54 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Nov-2005 at 12:50 PM.

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miksuh 
Re: [Poll] Memory protection or old programs?
Posted on 8-Nov-2005 12:59:40
#60 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 731
From: Espoo, Finland

@elwood

I would prefer memory protection. You could always run old incompatible software under EUAE until there is OS4 version which supports memory protection.

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