@hazydave


Quote:

My whole "obsession", as you might call it, with performance here is twofold. One is my simple claim that anything called "Amiga" should be to today what Amiga was back in the day. In particularly, it should be capable of serious multimedia performance. I'd probably buy into the AmigaOS on the PS3 idea, simply because that would actually achieve that -- it could probably render my HD MPEG-4 videos faster than any PC, anywhere. It's not general purpose computing, but it's useful and "Amigaesque".

Is it wise to compare a future product with current products?

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@hazydave

Quote:

Quote: But add to that the abillity to install to HD, and a set of updated SDK docs, RKRMs, and you _might_ manage to get enough people wondering enough to actually do some development on it to relive the bedroom coder days.. Hey, I'd port, at least, a parallel XViD rendering engine to it in a heatbeat. With proper documentation, this kind of idea would certainly have "the old Amiga buzz" about it; both of these machines are pretty hot stuff, from all appearances. So they're now comparable to a low-end PC in price; they both promise better (today) and more stable (for the next 3-5 years) platforms for gaming. Of course, gaming's largely driven the PC to it's current heights. These wouldn't make bad computers, I bet, for regular stuff. Particularly when you could enlist the extra processors (well, the XBox360 could actually run 6-way multithreaded/SMP code, it wouldn't have to resevere the extra juice for multimedia stuff).

XBOX 360’s PPE is only a dual instruction issue core and SMT wouldn't change that.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@nzv58l

Quote:

nzv58l wrote: So why are so many eager to dump the PowerPC? We are finally at the stage when AmigaOS is almost finished. So hey! Lets dump the PowerPC,

Nobody said dump the PPC, however, we've been struggling with this custom PPC albatros since around 1998/9 when Escena first started the AmigaOne. it's been 8 years and we're still at the same drawing board looking for designs! Do you honestly see this situation permanently changing? How long can we keep kicking this can down the road before it would be cheaper and faster to just port to a more reasonable platform? While we're waiting on these custom PPC boards, no OS sales are made.

Note: "port" does not mean "abandon", an x86 port doesn't preclude Cell/PPC/PS3/lawnmowers

Quote:

port it over to some PC that by the time you finish your port to it will be again out of date.

When has the PC been out of date? 16-bit Windows 3.1 still runs on PC's.

Quote:

Oh, and lets not forget that NOTHING will run on it from the old Amiga as everything would have to be emulated.

Everything from the old Amiga is emulated now.

Quote:

I am sorry, but what a waste of time that project would be.

When you have a product that you can't sell, because it doesn't run on anything available, isn't that wasting time? Hardware wise, we're back to Escena-era 1999 looking for PPC board designs all over again. Every time a custom board manufacturer quits we'll be partying like it's 1999 yet once more. Rinse, repeat.

Quote:

Not to mention that the X86 or whatever it is will probably not scale all that well.

Scale to what? Right now, 16-bit Windows 3.1 scales to more available hardware than AmigaOS does. Plus, if you need PPC AmigaOS for some "scale" issue, it's still there too.

Quote:

G4's, and G5's are nothing more than a spring board. I look at my A1 as a development board. Not the killer all doing and computer envy board, just a platform that allows the development of applications and allows me to run OS4.

You're a developer, right? Why are you under some kind of impression that when you port something to something else, the former dissappears?

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

I must add to my previous posts that I dont claim that Hyperion has done ANYTHING stupid. The situation was different when Amiga chosed the PPC path.
I don´t eather want to claim that I´m RIGHT.
I just want hyperion to know how to get MY money!
I would love to put some money in there to have fun with computers again!

And who knows, maybe a keyboard with an efikaboard buildt in would make me spend some also!

But if PPC were chosen for the future I really hope it goes Pegasos firmware/HAL.

Besides the PegasosII we would soon have 4core PPC G5 and EFIKA! Not cheap but better than the current situation (as I know it).

@Hammer

Non linear Video editing is 2D Not 3D

_________________
******************************************
I dont suffer from Insanity - I enjoy it

******************************************

@Maczilla

Quote:

Can that still be accomplished with what we have in the works now? The mainstream stuff has evolved into something like we would want, only it comes at the cost of a lot of M$/ Apple or Linux bloatware and computer HW that has to be be 800x faster to do what we hoped it might be able to to do 20 years ago. Is this progress?!!

I don’t recall the standard 68K Amiga classic doing the following
1. DTV (@DVD quality) through software.
2. Play MP3 @ full quality and still able to play Quake3.
3. Yamaha XG-50 emulated (needs at least Pentium MMX 166Mhz)
4. Watching HDTV 1080p.
5. 1440 x 1080 x 32bit desktop screen with windowed Quake3.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@The_Editor

There are NLE applications that uses DX9 HW for accelerating video effects.
ATI uses DX9's pixel shaders resources for WMV acceleration.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@dolen

Quote:

dolen wrote: I must add to my previous posts that I dont claim that Hyperion has done ANYTHING stupid. The situation was different when Amiga chosed the PPC path.

I want to echo this, because it seems some lucky b@stards (who already have hardware) are somehow becomming discouraged by those of us who can't *get* hardware, talking about how to solve the problem that is affecting *us*, and not them.

There's nothing wrong with PPC AmigaOS. This problem that we have right now is solely our own. You have hardware, we, and the rest of the world subset that would like to run AmigaOS4, don't

As long as PPC is all that's available, yours is an exclusive "limited edition" club that leaves most of us out in the cold, either due to hardware total lack of availability, limited availability, or price.

This problem doesn't affect those of YOU who already have hardware, we understand that.

This problem does affect US, and the rest of the world's potential AmigaOS4 users. PLEASE understand that.

This isn't an us vs. them thing.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@T_Bone
Quote:

This problem that we have right now is solely our own.

Not entirely. It might also become *their* problem, because software development will be rather limited when there is not a substantial growth of the hardware base which is running OS4 soon.

@hatschi

Quote:

hatschi wrote: @T_Bone Quote: This problem that we have right now is solely our own. Not entirely. It might also become *their* problem, because software development will be rather limited when there is not a substantial growth of the hardware base which is running OS4 soon.

I think they feel we're complaining about them in some way.

We don't have food, they do. We are hungry. We are not asking for them to give up THEIR food. We simply want food to be made available to all, yet the stores have none.

I think they feel we are complainers and don't believe there is hunger anywhere because THEY are not hungry.

x86 doesn't mean PPC would die. Hell, applications right now are commonly written for 2 different OS'es, MOS and AOS. hell, that's harder than writing for both AOSPPC and AOSx86, the same OS.

Anyway's, it's a hypothetical discussion about possible ways to solve a problem. There is a problem, but it's only experienced by those of us without hardware, well, and the worlds potential customers too.

It shouldn't bother them, it doesn't affect them and has nothing to do with them. They're golden, they're already in like flynn
this doesn't have to be a partisan issue, or cause a divide, or for heavens sake make Dave Haynie into a new "color" figure

Last edited by T_Bone on 14-Jan-2006 at 02:01 PM.
Last edited by T_Bone on 14-Jan-2006 at 01:59 PM.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@T_Bone

I absolutely agree on what you said - because basically I am in the same situation as you.

Sometimes it seems to take a hell of an effort to discuss topics like "OS4 on x86?" without being labeled as a naysayer.
Hell no, what kind of naysayer is that who is discussing about possible ways to solve the current hardware problem and how to bring Amiga back on track?

Well, it might not bother some of the existing OS4 users now, since they are happy with their hardware, will be getting an Update4 in "two weeks" and are eagerly awaiting the release of OS4 final. Funnily enough, the "Ah, I can't wait, when will OS4 final will be released? When it's done. Hahaha. Funny!!" threads will appear again soon, while at the same time ppl are not realising what has been said. It won't be released soon when there is no hardware.
Taken this as what it is, a hypothetical discussion, what would happen when the current project(s) fail(s)? No growth in userbase, no release of OS4 final (ok, maybe for Classic PPC platforms), no growth in developer and userbase, end of the road. That's the point when they would wake up and maybe agree that it "might be viable to think" to port OS4 to an existing, faster and cheaper platform where we might expect substantial sales (well at least more than "no sales" at all) and a userbase from.

Last edited by hatschi on 14-Jan-2006 at 02:28 PM.

@thread

Been a regular reader of the items on AW.net now, and I really can't understand the whole anti-x86 rubbish. The more I read, the more I tend to find myself absolutely amazed at some people's small mindedness.

Some facts are clear:
1. Currently we don't have any hardware available for sale.
2. The hardware that exists is *crap* in terms of raw performance compared to x86 based hardware that IS available today, for a hell of a lot less money.
3. There is no chance that AOS will be ported to x86, and some of the arguments that I have heard for this are absolutely ridiculous and make me positively cringe.

Whatever some people may say about AROS, I see it as the only way (apart from UAE) to run an Amiga-like OS on x86. Although it may not be fully usable just yet, which is primarily because they don't have much support, I am going to begin seriously looking at it and ways in which I and my future students could contribute towards its development.

BTW - my students are now entering into the 2nd semester in which they will start actual coding for the different modules of Amizilla that they have chosen.

Piyush

@thread

AmigaOS 4 is made for the PPC at the moment, maybe even other processors in the future, but right now we have to live with the PPC. And in my opinion this could be a very good thing if some pieces would fall into the right places.

1. SONY is known to be willing to have other OSes than their own running on the PS3, this being the case this would be my primary focus for Amiga OS4 at the moment. Everything / anything should be made to make this come true, this is the way to get new, and affordable hardware for the OS. The PS3 would in the beginning be good enough even for developing needs, but of course there should then come other hardware available for desktop use, incorporating the CELL processor, more memory and a few expansion slots. (Sony would propably take a royalty on every copy sold)

2. To get normal everyday people interested in Amiga OS4 on the PS3 it would have to invlude a good webbrowser, and in this case I would be very exited in getting Opera on the PS3 through AOS4. Opera is an amigalike application: small, efficient, very vast and extrelemy easy to use (and a gamepad would be possible to use for easy surfing... mouse/gamepad-gestures, but of course USB keyboards and mouse should be an option as well). (Opera should get a small royalty on avery copy sold, this way it could be possible to get them interested in this port and also make newer/better versions available later on)

3. A simlpified version of Workbech would have to be made, so that even those who aren't used to computers would get easily into various applications like websurfing etc. Workbech would have to be incorporated as well, so that the PS3 could be used as a dev kit as well.

4. Perhaps even a simple wordprocessor could be included, and although I'm not too fond of open-source for the Amiga, Abiword could be a possibility. (Even being open-source, perhaps a small royalty/donation should be paid for every copy sold)

I know it seems like a lot of royalties being paid, as even Amiga Inc could be on the list, but that depends on Hyperions contract with Amiga Inc. BUT: Money has to flow into varous pockets for something to get made, everyone should profit on it or it WILL fail.

The price for AOS4 on PS3 shouldn't be that much more than a game, here in Finand it could be 75-80¤ (as games are about 55-60¤). If more functionality would be included, then perhaps the price could be a little higher, but not much! Perhaps it would be better to have an 'expansion-pack' for the OS sold separately for those interested (this would include parts that aren't a must in the OS but more like nice add-on features and perhaps applications).

If CELL will prove to not be the saviour of the Amiga OS on PPC, then after taht the only way would be to move it to x86-64, but i feel the CELL-way should be at least tried and pursued before going the way of 'me-too's. CELL is more or less what the Amiga was in 1985, so this could be a new start... and perhaps even Dave could become involved, when being able to render video faster on the Amiga than any other computer :)

-Vikke

@T_Bone

Quote:

T_Bone wrote: @Amigo1 Quote: Amigo1 wrote: As soone as the x86 port will be almost done, we will have 24 threads asking and complaining to Hyperion why they didn't code it to support dual core and dual processors and PCI-express Right, because having a successful product that could be sold to thousands is less important than preventing 24 threads on a web forum somewhere. I get it now. Amiga Inc may be hiring a CEO, I nominate you

and I will make my decisions only by listening to the voices of the community, more of that: I will let the community decide, I'll only pick the best one..by the way, sometime they differ so much one from another...mmh I need a junior CEO to help me chosing the right one...are you available

@hatschi

We could just visit all their homes and take their hardware, make them feel our pain. (j/k)

(It would get rid of those gloating "I'm running Update#3 and I'm happy with the state of AmigaOS4 the way it is" [aka let them eat cake ] statements when they need to try and find new hardware!

Heck I've already threatened to visit Oz and liberate Umilator2.

I'm a desparate man! Take pity on me!

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@Amigo1

Quote:

Amigo1 wrote: and I will make my decisions only by listening to the voices of the community, more of that: I will let the community decide, I'll only pick the best one..by the way, sometime they differ so much one from another...mmh I need a junior CEO to help me chosing the right one...are you available

Not at the moment, I've got those 24 threads to start.

Last edited by T_Bone on 14-Jan-2006 at 03:21 PM.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@T_Bone

Quote:

From what I hear from people talking about the CELL, it's a completely different beast and porting to it would be more difficult than porting to x86, and that's just considering software.

That's completely untrue. Cell contains a standard, general purpose PPC part, aside from some OS level changes the port should be trivial.
Taking advantages of the SPEs is a different matter as that'll require extra plumbing but even that shouldn't be too difficult. If the interfaces Sony/IBM did are copied there'll be a heap of SPE optimised libraries ready to copy straight across.

Aside from having to learn multithreading (which everyone will have to do anyway) programming the SPEs should be pretty much like using AltiVec, you can also use them as scalar (normal, non-vector) processors though.

Quote:

Besides, what good would CELL do us? Multimedia? There's no software for it. Sure it can be written, but hells bells man, we don't even have MOZILLA yet.

Compute intensive apps generally spend most time in a small number of routines, the trick is to move these to the SPEs. You won't need to completely rewrite apps for it.

Quote:

You'd also need someone to build them for you.

Yes, that is a bit of a problem. Though I believe Sony plan on doing a product with them.

Quote:

x86 boards you can get at the corner, and are better suited for desktops anyway.

How so?


@hammer

Quote:

Cell doesn?t increase PPC code parallelism nor it accelerates PPC based code.

The PPE and it's higher clock speed alone will give a hefty boost compared to what is/was available in the Amiga market.

Quote:

By the time Cell arrives in the market place

Cell is already on the market, see Mercury's announcement last week.

Quote:

it will be in competition with ?Fat? multi-X64 cores.

By the time x86 can go quad core you will be able to put 2 Cells on a chip and they'll scale better.

_________________
Whyzzat?

@T_Bone

No, no, no... please read my post again.. a bit more carefully this time. Also
you might want to read my first post in this thread. Then you should get me
right - hopefully.

I don't have anything against x86. Infact i wouldn't give a rats ass for the
kind of CPU AmigaOS is running on, because IMHO AmigaOS is the important part
and the hardware is exchangable. Especially if i get more performance for a
lower price.

Regarding the Cell: If you read my post again you might understand that i just
said AmigaOS should again be equal with Multimedia (like Dave also said) and
that *may* be accomplished with Cell *somewhere* *in* *the* *future*, because
Cell has a very high potential! Of course i said also, it has to be available
in values, widely and cheap or at least not that expensive.

Finally, that Apple bit: I meant, Apple still sticks out of the masses ALTHOUGH
they switched to x86! I.e. they stick out because of their nice cases and
because of their OS/Software.

I hope i was clear enough with what i meant this time

_________________
Regards, Cyborg.
AmigaOS4 development team member

"In the beginning was CAOS.."
-- Andy Finkel, 1988 (ViewPort article, Oct. 1993)

@Hammer

*sigh* Again someone who totally missed my point.. Please read my answer to
T-Bone above.

Maybe i should more think about the people outside my head

_________________
Regards, Cyborg.
AmigaOS4 development team member

"In the beginning was CAOS.."
-- Andy Finkel, 1988 (ViewPort article, Oct. 1993)

@Rogue

Im with you all the way Hyperion Entertainment!
Let people complain, but hey we dont listen to da Crappy Talks!
Amiga for me and many many others this days, is:
AmigaOS4 and PowerPC architectures!

and when it comes to OS4 progress I respect:


And People, Forget the Amiga on crappy X86 HW!

_________________
AmigaOne X5000, AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition Update 2 special super 2 cores prepared super edition v75 christmas speciale uniqe quadro prepared AmigaOS... TWO MORE YEARS IS NOTHING IF YOU BEEN WAITING SINCE 1994..