@T_Bone

Quote:

Quote: >You think wrong probably only because you don't know what >Amitlon is. Amithlon does not run on top of linux. Ask bernd I think that you are who don´t know.Amithlon uses a minimal linux kernel to boot and launch the emulator.a few hardware is accessed by AOS native drivers other accesed thought linux drivers Bernd, could you please tell this man that Amithlon works inside the kernel, not on top of it?

Can you guys just agree that you are *both* right?

Amithlon *does* run as a process on top of the linux kernel. However, it does things to the kernel which mere user space processes were never meant to do. Such as talking to hardware, or handling physical memory. Which is why I usually say that Amithlon is running "next to" the linux kernel.

Either way, emulating a 68k on x86 is obviously possible, as is mixing native and emulated code transparently. It can be done, because it has been done. End of that particular discussion, please?

@jorkany

Quote:

A 68K JIT could even be implemented for x86

Welcome to 2000 (or was it 1999?) :)

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @Seehund How many times are people gonna have to repeat it to you before you get it? The AmigaOS4 licensing scheme has absolutely nothing to do with what hardware the AmigaOS4 is compatible with today as well as tomorrow. The licensing scheme isn't somehow taking away compatibility that would have been there without the licensing scheme.

(You're "people" now? Pluralis maiestatis?)

No licence = No port.
No licence = No sales, even if no port is needed (see Teron vs "AmigaOne).

The licensing scheme affects the number of possible options negatively. This is an undisputable fact and very simple, really. You're the only "people" who I've seen still trying to contradict this. Whether or not the effects of the scheme are completely disastrous for AmigaOS might however be open for debate (and I and 1200+ other people think we've made our opinion clear there), but obviously there can only be a negative effect on the number of available options to whatever degree. That's part of the purpose of a compulsory licensing scheme, for crying out loud!

It looks like you think that I and everyone else who oppose the licensing scheme are saying that compatibility will somehow automatically follow without any effort, if only the licensing scheme was buried. If that's really what you think, then I suggest you start reading and understanding what people actually say, and quit building strawmen to fight!


Quote:

What matters to the decission of which hardware the AmigaOS4 should be made compatible with is: [a bunch of more or less valid considerations]

None of that matters if nobody buys a licence to sell AmigaOS bundled with hardware. And THAT added consideration is IMO totally unnecessary, it shouldn't be a prerequisite. No licence = no port, no available hardware, no OS sales.

Quote:

The only ones interested are we Amiga enthusiasts where the targeted consumer segment are those of us who are actually prepared to pay for new products.

That's partly true, but now there's an additional limitation on top of that. The way the current "plan" has been made, AOS4+ has been targeted at a deliberately limited SUBSET of the possible market (the possible market being former Amiga enthusiasts and "altOS nerds" in general). Not only do we have to be interested in AmigaOS in the first place, we must also be prepared to pay MORE for WORSE hardware, with FEWER options available from FEWER dealers, compared to what could have been possible if we could actually take advantage of hardware being a commodity.

Quote:

... effectivly killing the business for all Amiga hardware dealers in the world

Possibly. So? In reality, AmigaOS4+ and us users and potential customers need "Amiga hardware dealers" as much as a fish needs a bicycle. Amigas aren't needed any more, and they're not coming back. An "Amiga hardware dealer" is an anachronism, the enforced "need" for them is an artificial construction by way of the compulsory licensing scheme (unless you're talking about sales of/for "classic" Amigas).

Quote:

... and all opportunities to ever compete with the OS that does come bundled and preinstalled with the hardware in question and the other OS' that is available for it for free? The amount of people willing to give an alternative to the OS they already got with their hardware purchase a try is not many, even less is willing to pay another $100 for it.

WTF? A piece of hardware running several OSes is a BONUS to the customer, it's one of the things that can make hardware more attractive. AmigaOS simply must run on more attractive hardware, regardless of CPU. If a customer is more interested in another OS, then he's not going to be swayed to buy AmigaOS instead, if it's only for sale together with worse and more expensive hardware with limited availabilty!
"Choosing isolation and obscurity = protection from competition" is a myth that never has made any sense, let it die already.

Quote:

3. To what extent may it be expected to get support from the hardware manufacturer?

That's a valid consideration, which has nothing to do with the licensing scheme.
If anything, a licensing requirement will make most hardware vendors say "screw you, who do you think you are?". Asking HW vendors to sell your little OS bundled with dongled versions of their hardware doesn't mean they're going to hand you their datasheets any more willingly. For example, that Eyetech happened to have AInc's permission to sell Terons under a new trademark bundled with AOS4 meant nothing to the possibility of acquiring docs and support from Mai.

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It's quite a business decission to make and it is noone's resposibility to make the "right" decission but Hyperion and Amiga Inc.'s. Respect that and quit whining about the licensing scheme for a change. You've been doing it for like, what is it, four or five years now? Change the record, please.

What's your problem? How am I or anybody else not "respecting" AInc's or Hyperion's right to make decisions by themselves? We say that they (you forgot Eyetech's damn involvement) have made a totally idiotic decision, and we propose what we think is a better alternative. The idiocy of the current decision has unfortunately been proven over and over again by failures and missed opportunities over the last four years, yes. I have heard your arguments over and over again too, and they haven't made me change my mind, but I won't tell you to "change the record". I'm free to ignore you instead.

Last edited by Seehund on 15-Jan-2006 at 07:42 PM.

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Oh, bother.

@umisef

Quote:

It can be done, because it has been done. End of that particular discussion, please?

Hower, in order to not confuse people, it's better to tell the whole story.

Mixing x86 and 68k code is possible, at the expense of speed penalty for the x86 code.

This is good enough for an emulator, it's not good for an operating system whose aim is to mainly run native code (in this case x86 code).

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

Can someone cut out the interesting arguments made in this topic ? 20 pages just because Dave H. gave his opinion ?
And yes how many times are we going to have the x86 discussion again? It maybe is not the ideal solution but when things are going to go on like they do now the only next gen that is actually accesible by the masses is Aros ... and when that happens i wonder how long it's going to take before something similar like Amithlon happens with it.

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- Proud Member Of The Belgian Amigaclub Since 2003 -

The Belgian Amiga Club on FACEBOOK !

The Belgian Amiga Club Website

ok I have been and always will be an Amiga fanatic, but the dude has a point (actually a lot of them). The price of a PC compared to Amigaone is a no brainer for the average person raising a family. For the price of the A1 board alone you can get a PC with all the extra gadgets and still have money left over, and with the A1 board, hell you still have to tower it, buy periphs and software. I was really disapointed the first time i read the specs to the A1 and then the price of the motherboard. Lets be realistic here, I have been on the amiga scene for just as long if not longer than most of you and will never give it up, but letsface it, Amiga Inc has never been here for us since commodore went tits upand I really doubt anyone with any real impact would acquire it to continue to develop "new" hardware for us. A port to an x86 machine is prob the most sensible thing for us now. I know Amiga inc doesn't and never has had the capital to invest on R&D and with all the broken promises and dead end moves they never will. Lets be real I will always use my Amiga and feel it is the best computer out there but as a professional in the technology field I also know that I have to have a PC and windows driven laptop to work and in that sense make a living for my family. I get tired of people saying we are bashing the Amiga when we are just saying it as it is, I will never give Amiga Inc one more penny because the current company is a joke (we are a software company only). I will however continue to buy amiga HW/SW from companies like softhut, hyperion products and such to support them. Im sorry but when it comes to people wishin for new hardware that will revolutionalize the computer industry, unless you personally have about a billion dollars to put into it and then more to produce the products It isn't going to happen. I spent the last 10 yrs excited then disappointed (the Walker, Gateways new Amigas, Escom ect)over and over I refuse to listen to Amiga Inc anymore. If another Amiga OS does comeout i will buy it, and I really hope I am wrong and some huge company buys them out and produces more new amigas, but alas I know it is just a dream.Enjoy your Miggy's and cd32(still my fav game system) and keep the old Amiga going and going.

@amigakid

It's pointless talking about AmigaOne and its pricing, as they're no longer available. The two new hardware coming soon (PowerVixxen and Amy05) are well priced and will allow the average person to get going with OS4.

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote: @amigakid It's pointless talking about AmigaOne and its pricing, as they're no longer available. The two new hardware coming soon (PowerVixxen and Amy05) are well priced and will allow the average person to get going with OS4.

So what's the great difference compared to "AmigaOnes"? While at least the PowerVixxen project seems to be quite a cool effort for people interested in vintage machines, they and the Amys would still just be more pointless "community" hardware. Even worse specs than the poor "AmigaOne" (which is astonishing, given that "AmigaOnes" didn't come anywhere near much cheaper and much better "mainstream hardware" regardless of CPU family 4 bloody years ago!) and the "cheapest" option will still cost at least 300 bloody dollars!
Not to mention the tiny detail that none of them can be bought yet anyway...

Why do we so stubbornly refuse to learn from the death of the Amiga and the failure of the "AmigaOnes"? Trying to be "special" is bad when "special" isn't synonymous with being the best.

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Oh, bother.

@Seehund

The PowerVixxen can run "stand alone", without an A1200, so I don't see it as a vintage addon.

Last edited by tomazkid on 16-Jan-2006 at 03:37 AM.

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Site admins are people too..pooff!

@Hammer

>Cell doesn t increase PPC code parallelism nor it accelerates PPC based code.

See the bottom of http://www.research.ibm.com/cellcompiler/compiler-perf.htm
The PPE does also do simultaneous multithreading.

@Fransexy

>Only x86 and alphas are little endian

Not even the Alpha was a pure little endian design according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness

@Thread

Please, don't each other or start another war.

As has been said many times, the PPC vs X86 decision was made along time ago.

My Amiga was an A2000HD. Regardless of which path was chosen as the new Amiga, I could not have used my machine. Instead of purchasing a newer Classic Amiga and PPC accelerator, I chose to purchase an AmigaOne with Amiga OS 4. This was finalized at the end of November, 2004, when I purchased a µA1-C motherboard and mounted it in an Antec Minuet case. My motherboard was very expensive, and I had to make some sacrifies to get it.

The point is ... I made a choice to purchase an AmigaOne and support Amiga OS 4.0.

IMHO, the Frieden brothers and the other guys at Hyperion, the other unnamed developers and the beta testers should be proud of what they have accomplished so far with Amiga OS 4.0.

As a user (I'm not a beta tester), I've had fun experimenting with Amiga OS 4.0. Each upgrade has allowed more possibilities. I've had a chance to try out some new programs, as well as tinker with my old applications and E-UAE.

Right now, we are in an interesting situation where there is no sanctioned hardware available, and Amiga OS 4.0 is just around the corner. Two (maybe more) boards in the works (Troika and ACK).

Some of you want to run Amiga OS 4.0 now, but it is not available yet for the classic Amiga with PPC accelerator, or Pegasos, or any X86 machines.

Personally, I would like to see OS4 run on a variety of hardware, but that is just my opinion, and I have no influence over the situation.

I'm sure the Hyperion guys do not want to see Amiga OS4 die now, so I suspect something is happening in the wings, just out of our sight, to get the show on the road.

---
redfox

@treblesix

Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

Everyone is entitled to his opinion, but it is, after all, *just one man's opinion*. Although I agree with some of the points he made, in my opinion, it is easy to use 20/20 hindsight to see how things could have been done differently.

I agree that the Amigas built by Commodore were revolutionary for their time. I still have my Amiga 2000HD, it still runs, and I am still amazed at what it could do with a stock 68000 CPU, 1MB chip ram, 4MB fast ram, 40MB hard drive, CD-ROM drive and a MicroWay flickerFixer. With this machine, my wife and very young son learned how to use a computer. Later, with no support whatever from our ISP, I was able to get this machine onto the internet over dial-up service, using ppp.device, AmiTCP/IP, Amiga Mosaic (later replaced by AWeb), download files using FTPmount, send and receive email using SMTPpost, AmiPOP, my own scripts and a variety of mail readers.

Families have to make many decisions over the years. I often regret not purchasing a newer Classic Amiga, such as the A3000T or A4000T. But, when these machines were new, we could not afford to pay the full purchase price (as a single payment), and the only way I could get a payment plan was through payroll deduction. My employer was offering a payroll deduction plan for pcs, not Amigas, so we embarked on the pc road for awhile, aquiring a pc with Windows 95. Later, upgraded to a pc with Windows ME, tried QNX for awhile, then upgraded to Windows XP. Later, when my son was entering university (taking Computing Science), he needed a laptop. I wanted an AmigaOne (I already had a price quote for an AmigaOne from the Canadian dealer). We could not afford to get both the laptop and the AmigaOne at the same time ... so, we bought the laptop. Looking back with 20/20 hindsight, it was a good decision because I was looking for an AmigaOne-SE ... Eventually, we upgraded again to our latest pc and a little later, I finally bought my AmigaOne (a µA1-C).

****

As for the discussion about PPC vs X86, we have been down this road before. Amiga passed through many hands. If I remember correctly, the Gateway guys decided to go with X86. There was alot of squawking from the Amiga users about that decision.

The present owners (Amiga, Inc./KMOS??), along with Hyperion and Eyetech decided to port
Amiga OS4 to PPC rather than X86. This would allow them to support more existing PPC users.

If they had chosen X86, I could have used one of the pcs our family aquired over the years. Our current pc or my son's laptop would have done OS4 proud.

BUT, they didn't. They chose to support the PPC instead.

In any case, I could not use my Amiga 2000HD for Amiga OS 4.

Instead of purchasing a newer Classic Amiga and PPC accelerator, I chose to purchase an AmigaOne (µA1-C) at the end of November, 2004.

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redfox


edit removed the

Last edited by redfox on 17-Jan-2006 at 03:09 AM.

@hazydave

:

Oh my God .... sorry Dave.

In post #169 you were simply responding to what you thought was a "personal attack" by T_Power in post #47???

Quote:

Dave Haynie has become old and has lost the passion.

Quote:

You silly caveman! I have more passion ...

I must have been caught off guard by all the theatrics T_Power used in his response in post #355, as well as some of the comments made by others.

For whatever reason, I thought you were calling the rest of us "cavemen".

And then I jumped into the thread like a religious nutcase

Finally dawned on me what had happened when I read T_Bone's comment #456 and subsequent exchange on pages 23 and 24 of this thread.

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redfox


Left for continuity sake ...

So along comes someone claiming to be the legendary Dave Haynie, to lay down some words of wisdom.

But first, you had to put down everyone who was already associated with AmigaOne or Amiga OS 4.0, and call anyone who questioned your ideas "a caveman".

ANYONE ELSE DOING THIS WOULD BE CLASSIFIED AS A TROLL, and would have received a tounge-lashing from the moderators.

At least you waited until about 150 posts had already been made, before you entered the forum.

While I agree with some of what you have said, this is neither the time nor the place to stir up the X86 vs PPC battle once again.

---
redfox


(edit - spelling)

Last edited by redfox on 17-Jan-2006 at 04:24 AM.
Last edited by redfox on 17-Jan-2006 at 02:44 AM.
Last edited by redfox on 17-Jan-2006 at 02:42 AM.
Last edited by redfox on 16-Jan-2006 at 03:38 PM.
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@redfox

Any ex-CBM employee has several bazillion karma points they can burn off over here

Quote:

Only x86 and alphas are little endian

Every PPC, except the G5 also does little endian.

Leo.

Last edited by Leo on 16-Jan-2006 at 07:29 AM.

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

Quote:

ppc4me wrote: @Hammer >Cell doesn t increase PPC code parallelism nor it accelerates PPC based code. See the bottom of http://www.research.ibm.com/cellcompiler/compiler-perf.htm The PPE does also do simultaneous multithreading.

SMT does not change instruction issues per cycle (dual issue processor) i.e. it only maximizes the pipeline wastage in the longish (e.g. 21 stage) pipeline.

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Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@tomazkid

Quote:

tomazkid wrote: @Seehund The PowerVixxen can run "stand alone", without an A1200, so I don't see it as a vintage addon.

I know that it apparently won't need the A1200, I read SAFIR's ad/interview too. ;)

So while it CAN be used as a stand-alone product (together with some sort of terminator which I don't know if it will be a separately purchased item), how interesting/appealing is it as a stand-alone product, as a computer by itself, in 2006? The whole concept is built with compromises to get it to fit inside, utilise and play well with an A1200. Unless you see it as "an A1200 accelerator", then the high price, poor performance, few included on-board features and nearly inexistent expandability are outright abysmal IMO, compared to other contemporary "small" options.

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Oh, bother.

@redfox

Quote:

redfox wrote: @hazydave So along comes someone claiming to be the legendary Dave Haynie, to lay down some words of wisdom.

Hazydave is Dave Haynie, just to make that clear.

Quote:

But first, you had to put down everyone who was already associated with AmigaOne or Amiga OS 4.0, and call anyone who questioned your ideas "a caveman".

I probably don't need to defend Dave Haynie, but that's not at all what he did, as far as I can see. The "caveman" bit was in reference to the apparent luddite streak which is prevalent among SOME people who can't or can't be bothered to support their "PPC good, x86 bad" soundbites with reasoning or rational explanations. Also, the people he responded to were insulting to begin with (yeah, I know, that's not supposed to be an excuse, but it's an explanation).

Remember when BBRV referred to some people who were flinging faeces at the perceived "opposition" in another AW.net thread as "morons"? In AW.net mythology, this has become distorted over time to "BBRV says that everyone who likes AOS4/AW.net/Hyperion/AInc/daffodils/pancakes are MORONS!"
I think I can see another myth building up now: "Dave Haynie says that everyone who likes PPC/[fill in more things here as time passes, memories fade and fanaticism strengthens] are CAVEMEN!"

Quote:

While I agree with some of what you have said, this is neither the time nor the place to stir up the X86 vs PPC battle once again.

What battle? I think it's been an interesting and pretty civilised discussion so far, with very few exceptions. It's not like anyone's expecting an "outcome" of this discussion which is to be grounds for any of Hyperion's decisionmaking. I'm afraid that might be too late anyway.

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Oh, bother.

@everyone

I'll say one good thing about this thread (and the 13 others), it's stopped us all whining about Pre-Release 4 not being out!

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Rage quited 29th May 2011