@dolen

You're on to something here, that's all I can say

SoC is cool. It's a design nowhere CLOSE to the ancient "desktop computer" idea, but neither are any of the classic Amigas, so there

Once you support an SoC, any system with that SoC inside becomes a viable target. Think about that one for a minute.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Seehund

Quote:

So what's the great difference compared to "AmigaOnes"? While at least the PowerVixxen project seems to be quite a cool effort for people interested in vintage machines, they and the Amys would still just be more pointless "community" hardware. Even worse specs than the poor "AmigaOne" (which is astonishing, given that "AmigaOnes" didn't come anywhere near much cheaper and much better "mainstream hardware" regardless of CPU family 4 bloody years ago!) and the "cheapest" option will still cost at least 300 bloody dollars! Not to mention the tiny detail that none of them can be bought yet anyway... Why do we so stubbornly refuse to learn from the death of the Amiga and the failure of the "AmigaOnes"? Trying to be "special" is bad when "special" isn't synonymous with being the best.

Mainly because of the differences between an 'ideal world' versus reality, and in reality we have little knowledge as to what they actual contracts and licensing may be.

And actually, I signed your petition _years_ ago iirc, but that doesn't change facts. I'd love to see OS4 on commodity x86 hardware, but that doesn't mean Hyperion is within their rights to do it, even IF they wanted to. Bearing that in mind, the ACK and Amy both represent a fair _better_ situation IMO than the now 'disappeared' A1 series, as it's much more within the price range many of us class as an 'entertainment expense.' In other words, while it's not the 'ideal' situation (run on what you've got), $300 or so is much more likely/sane to at least allow the userbase to grow beyond what's capable with the $$$$ AmigaOnes. So at least for now, I think they're dead on with the pricing on the PV and Amy(expected pricing), and possibly the best compromise in what may be a bad situation.

Also, somewhere someone posted something about A1 sales _funding_ OS4. If that's true, then that might explain some addiitonal things, like the relatively high price tag. Again, unfortunately but true, while it's nice to speculate, and even to make informed guessed/hypothesis based on what we believe to be facts, I'm not sure we're even close to having all of the information on hand in order to make some of these judgement or 'I would' type of calls.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@olegil

And as you know, there are already some very nice soc thingies out there. But many of them are sold to aviation/military targets and therefore massively price inflated. Oh, and most don't have any means of supporting 3d output at a reasonable price.

I keep scouring for a board that we could jump on, but find nothing. Which is why, I suppose, that Troika and ACk are developing "custom" solutions.

_________________
Happiness is mandatory.
MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4

We ran 5 Recursion Computer Fairs before hitting the exit condition

@Seehund

Quote:

I know that it apparently won't need the A1200, I read SAFIR's ad/interview too. ;) So while it CAN be used as a stand-alone product (together with some sort of terminator which I don't know if it will be a separately purchased item), how interesting/appealing is it as a stand-alone product, as a computer by itself, in 2006? The whole concept is built with compromises to get it to fit inside, utilise and play well with an A1200. Unless you see it as "an A1200 accelerator", then the high price, poor performance, few included on-board features and nearly inexistent expandability are outright abysmal IMO, compared to other contemporary "small" options.

You're right. It's not interesting as a mass consumer device, because of obvious reasons as you covered well enough.

However, it IS a way to expand the current market at a sane price point. Not break back into the desktop world by any means, people waiting for that to happen at any semblance of 'soon' are totlally out of touch with reality IMO, but at $300, it's a fairly appealing setup to increase the 'former users' to some extent- guys still running classics, some devs looking for 'something new,' and perhaps some of the 'geek factor' crowd as well.

Things have got to take a step at some point, and while this would be lousy IMO as an 'ultimate goal'/endpoint, it is still a step forward from where things stand now, and certainly has the potential to expand the userbase moreso than the existing number of A1s running OS4. After that...dunno, hopefully another step forward instead of back.

This board also might not be a terrible 'appliance' type device, if licensing was able to be worked out, to make it a 'nostalgia box' with some classic games and such. People have spent far more on things like golf clubs and other things...

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@Seehund

Quote:

I probably don't need to defend Dave Haynie, but that's not at all what he did, as far as I can see. The "caveman" bit was in reference to the apparent luddite streak which is prevalent among SOME people who can't or can't be bothered to support their "PPC good, x86 bad" soundbites with reasoning or rational explanations. Also, the people he responded to were insulting to begin with (yeah, I know, that's not supposed to be an excuse, but it's an explanation). Remember when BBRV referred to some people who were flinging faeces at the perceived "opposition" in another AW.net thread as "morons"? In AW.net mythology, this has become distorted over time to "BBRV says that everyone who likes AOS4/AW.net/Hyperion/AInc/daffodils/pancakes are MORONS!" I think I can see another myth building up now: "Dave Haynie says that everyone who likes PPC/[fill in more things here as time passes, memories fade and fanaticism strengthens] are CAVEMEN!"

This is really directed at the entire thread. While obviously many were unhappy with Dave's statements, a few of you acting like he has no clue i was a bit overboard. He isn't some barber that stopped by, he was intimately involved with C= and the classic Amigas, as well as several attempts at revival. He got burned by Merlancia among other attempts, and is in the industry for a living.

Likewise, all fo you who immediately use it as basis to discredit Hyperion should also be ashamed of yourselves. Last I checked, we do not all share the same opinions, and guess what? That's life, and it's ok...but immediately jumping ship, or talking like it, because of Dave's opinions (and yes, well-informed IMO, but not with all current facts on situation)...I don't know what to say to you, other than I would hope to never be in a high stress or emergenecy situation with you, because bandwagon jumping without even having the knowledge or skills to make your OWN decision, is truly disgusting.

Opinions in the end, are just those. We all want OS4 NOW. Some of us are ok with the PPC choice, others aren't. Some of us work in the IT industry, others don't. That doesn't nescessarily make anyone's opinion 'invalid,' but it also doesn't mean that ANY of us, not even Dave, have all the facts regarding the current situation.

Personally, I'd rather see us capable of discussing differences of opinions than to sit there and call Dave a 'caveman' or infer he knows little, or to see people also discounting what has surely been a long, hard, less than profitable road for Hyperion, or acting like they know it all, which none of us do. Those that find themselves simply unable to _ever_ acknowledge they may not know all the facts, or to see the other side of a story, really aren't discussing anything anyways- they're simply preaching. Last I checked, this was a discussion forum; can we act like it now?

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@olegil

Quote:

I'm certain they would sell more batches still (would be nice to find some working riser cards and figure out the old PCI graphics card issue, though).

Ole-Egil - weren't you working on such a beast (riser card) in your many projects actually, or am I totally off? If so, any news? If not....err, ignore

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

$300.00 is really the kind of pricepoint we need. For just a little more than that you can buy a 64 bit Sempron, a socket 754 motherboard with decent onboard graphics (something like the Radeon X200), 512 megs of RAM, a case, a SATA drive, and a monitor. And? You can have it delivered to your door. As an added bonus, you can overclock the Sempron like mad.

The PPC world can't compete with the prices for Intel hardware. Even Jobs figured that out.

@praxis9
"Even Jobs figured that out."

This has already been stated ad nauseam,
but, hey, let's have another go.

It really has very little to do with cost, and
much more to do with replacing the G4 in
Mac laptops. Apple (Jobs) claimed that they
could find no way to wedge a hot and power
hungry (but otherwise far from inferior) G5
into a Powerbook.

In any event, Apple is not passing along any
cost saving to its customers. The new Intel
based iMac cost the same as the G5 iMac,
and the new MacBook "Pro" is pretty close
in price to the 15" Powerbook.

@wegster

I'm actually working on two riser cards. One from PCI to PCIe (single x16 slot, one lane wired), one from PCIe to PCI (3 slots).

While the simplest one could be used to put PCIe in a µA1, it would still act like a PCI card to the system and so we need to have working PCI graphics for there to be any point in using it

I'm currently working on the mechanical design of the tower case for my project, will probably put in more work on PCI to PCIe later this week. About half done on the design (took October - December off from this, unfortunately )

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@T_Bone

>embedded class CPU's were their focus,

Replace embedded with integrated (which is a good thing, because 3rd party PPC northbridges SUCKED) and you got it nearly right.

>not Altivec enabled multimedia monsters that couldn't even compete with today's $150 x86 CPU's.

XBox360 triple core CPU AltiVec monster is said to be less than $150.

@Leo

>PPC has *no* future on the desktop market.

Because Linux is not a compelling desktop OS?

The HW itself is up to current standards with dualchannel DDR2, dualcores,
PCI-Express etc.
If it won't have a future in the desktop market it's only because no company
has the balls to build the boards in numbers.
BTX is a typical desktop formfactor, we will see if Genesi can deliver.

@wegster

I think the main problem is that there are a lot of people here who are truly enthusiastic about OS4 and its current direction (mostly people who are already using it) and they feel insulted by comments like "x86 is the only way", etc. I do think that considering and discussing the possibility of x86 is not a bad thing, however people presenting their opinions like they are facts is upsetting. This goes both ways of course. Presenting an opinion is OK. Comments like "As a hardware designer I'd expect you to know better than that." are not OK in my opinion. You are a moderator, so I think you should take action when you see something like that happening, before it gets too nasty. Some can be warned and will learn to behave as civilised people, others won't and will have to be dealt with.

@COBRA

I really like the ppc and I believe it's future is not bad, but the
things you were referring to need some reality check:

a) the xbox cpu, well high clocked, but that's it. major drawback. No
out of order execution. Bad thing for a desktop cpu!

b) Cell: a poor ppc core unit and 7(8) dsp a like units. Sure apps
using them will benefit extraordinary, but avarage computng on the
Cell will be not that exciting. If the ppc unit will be revised it
really hold potential. Plus: it is very scalable and interconnectable.
*Can* become big, but not necessarily.

c) e600 - current revision of the G4. The 7448 uses it already. A
major pusher! Has still a lot of potential and shows that the good old
G4 is not as old as many see it (with the fast fsb it will fly!).

d) e700 - the 64 bit cory by freescale. Currently put on hold (a
direct result of the Apple move). Maybe later on.

e) The PA-Semi thing has to materalize first and has no southbridge
interface. That is not as bad as it sounds, but it is not optimized
for desktop usage (but for datathroughput).

Best bet for the 1 - 2 year timeline IMHO for AOS4/MOS is the
Freescale 8641. it will provide reasonable cpu power for a low price
and needs only smallest ammounts of electric power, designs can be
kept simple. If OS4/MOS will provide SMP in some future the 8641D will
boost things again.

Anyway, Power to the ppl!

The ppc goes embedded, no doubt. But many
embedded scenarios require chips wich will do a good job on the
desktop, too (f. ex. the 8641). And those embedded chips are cheap,
dirt cheap sometimes (good example MPC 5200 - you can build a *whole*
system (incl. ram & gfx) with it for less than 100 US$!!).

_________________
My programs: via.bckrs.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@wegster
Quote:

....than to sit there and call Dave a 'caveman' or infer he knows little....

I don't believe anyone called Dave a "caveman", but some of US were called "cavemen" BY Dave.
No hassle though, most here have real tough skins. (The "Report" button is for the weak. )

Any inside news from Hyperion as to when update #4 will be released?

Cheers,
Tim

@T_Power
Quote:

Any inside news from Hyperion as to when update #4 will be released?

Why don't you open a thread on that? Some will be happy to see that "usual life" (aka "When is it done?" threads) goes on.

@hazydave

Quote:

hazydave wrote: Quote: Dave Haynie has become old and has lost the passion. , You silly caveman! I have more passion in my little toe than you'll likely have in your whole life. But dude, I was there for the real thing. How could I possible get passionate about a weak retread. Not to diss the work of Hyperion, but they helped choose the path they've taken, and they haven't produced. They're closing in on taking longer to port the OS to a generic PPC system than Jay, Dale, Dave, Mitchie and the boys did making the original. There's a reason new people are involved in these projects -- there's nothing compelling about it for me, and I suspect, for the other first, second, or third generation Amiga engineers. I'm really not THAT old. I'm still working every night until the early house (usually 3AM-5AM) on cool projects, more "devices", not desktop PCs. There are plenty of reasons for this, but the big one is simple: desktop PCs are boring. The only system design possible these days is in the chips, and I'm not interested in being a chip designer. The regular PC: boring. Dual AMD 64x2 desktops: pretty cool, but it's all about the chips. The old G5 Macs: boring. The A-One: boring as hell. I'm doing digital radio controls for R/C cars and robotics: http://www.nomadio.net. You may find it boring, but we lit up an industry that's relatively unchanged since the 40's. No one did digital radio, no one did software upgradeable products, etc. And I was into robots even before Amiga, even before the C128, back in school at CMU.. And I'll still play rock music all night (well, when I can collect a band together), drink you under the table (well, you're probably not old enough for that). I did trade the sportscar for a Prius and a truck.... I have a big place here, and need the offroad capabilities. And one day, I'll have the Prius running under digital radio control Quote: at least Carl Sassenrath is still a Rebol. REBOL runs on the x86 -- Carl must be evil or unpassionate, in your book. At least I'm designing with RISC-based microcontrollers. 100% non-Intel parts!

@T_Power
Just for the record, he made the Caveman comment after he was called old and passionless.

Last edited by T_Bone on 16-Jan-2006 at 11:26 PM.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@T_Power

Quote:

T_Power wrote: No hassle though, most here have real tough skins. (The "Report" button is for the weak. )

Right on!

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@wegster

Quote:

PearPC

PearPC is not the fastest FOSS PPC emulator i.e. refer to SheepShaver.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@ppc4me

Xenon is not quite "Altivec" per se e.g. it's an exposed** 128 register model. **Removed register wheel/register renaming hardware.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Zylesea

Quote:

Cell: a poor ppc core unit and 7(8) dsp a like units. Sure apps using them will benefit extraordinary, but avarage computng on the Cell will be not that exciting.

Describe "average computing". Browsing the web? sending emails? Writing word documents? Chatting on MSN? Those tasks don't require a very powerful CPU. You only need more power for things like playback (or editing) of high definition video content, games with complex scenes/physics, etc. This is the area where vector units like VMX/Altivec or the SPEs of the CELL really stand out. Also I wouldn't be so sure that the PPC core of the CELL won't be so fast, it'll benefit from a shorter execution pipeline than the G5 and it will also have a VMX unit. We'll see.

Quote:

The PA-Semi thing has to materalize first and has no southbridge interface. That is not as bad as it sounds, but it is not optimized for desktop usage (but for datathroughput).

That CPU looks to me like a perfect choice for a laptop.

Quote:

The ppc goes embedded, no doubt.

I still don't understand how you concluded this. The main market for PPC so far _has been_ the embedded market (Apple was a really minor customer). Now PPC is entering home entertainment with the XBox 360, Nintendo Revolution, PS3. These markets are simply huge and PPC is there in all of those.