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Bobsonsirjonny 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 23:35:52
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2003
Posts: 2880
From: Unknown

X86 isn’t necessarily a better architecture than PPC, but the one advantage it does have is volume. It’s mass produced. Amiga OS 4.0 could have been ported to a couple of chipsets, and we wouldn’t be having the problems we are having now.

Point is – OS 4.0 is homeless. On X86, OS 4.0 may well have been pirated, but the die hards wouldn’t rip it off, and if OS 4.0 was priced cheap enough I can imagine a case where many people buy it for ####s and giggles – the Zeta effect?

I’m sure initially sales of PPC motherboards helped to fund OS 4.0 – iirc that was one of the reasons why the early bird offer was launched etc. Now we are in a situation which seems quite impossible as we have no hardware.

So in answer to people on this thread – I don’t think X86 is any better. Its just more common. I’m with Haynie on this one.

As for the MacTel - Apples move will not hurt there sales. Its a processor - people buy macs for the looks and OS. It wont kill them at all, in fact it may help them compete, and get more market share...

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 23:42:52
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@Hitback

Quote:
Apple has to do some very clever marketing if it wants to compete with the LIkes OF DELL, HP, Levon(IBM), Sony and Toshiba. It is a crowed intel market place to walked into and I can't see them coming out alive. Lets face it the only thing that has kept this company aflot is its IPOD!!

I recall Apple’s iPod is just a digital music player like many other digital music players yet Apple is doing reasonably OK. One major difference is MacOS X and its related ecosystem.

Sizable sections of X86 users are open to “real**” alternative to MS Windows ecosystem i.e. refer to PearPC.net’s survey. **Desktop OS with real desktop applications.

Quote:
It would not suprise me if they ditch/sell their whole PC market division to another chinese (like IBM) maker to concentrate on portable devices like the IPOD.

Unlike IBM, there’s a demand for Apple’s OS and applications in the desktop market. IBM’s OS/2, Lotus Smart Suite and Notes GUI wise is !@#$.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 23:46:11
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@Atheist

Quote:
I think that increases in the speed of the RISC PPC CPUs will continue, now that the sales will go through the roof, thanks to xbukz 360 and PS3 and Nintendo's Revolution... The PS2 sold over 100 million units, right?

Over a number of years since it's release.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 23:53:48
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
* the x86 is way more common it makes it easier to pirate the OS whit out paying for it

PPC is not a shield against this line of thinking i.e. witness PearPC.

Quote:
Other systems like BeOS, Zeta and QNX is not big success on x86 just by running on the x86 at end of the day; what make an os depends on what programs you can use, not only boot speed, amigaos covers a minimum thanks to it's legacy support.

One difference, the only other OS with creditable desktop applications against Windows is MacOS X. Apple is also a creditable application software and content vendor not just OS vendor.

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dolen 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 23:59:19
#65 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 90
From: Sweden

I would pay 100$ in advance to get OS4 ported to x86-64 with a limited configuration(wise config offcourse) Never mind the old software. Im looking forwards, not backwards. The userbase would be so much greater that the apps would soon be there.
Set up a poll! 100$ for OS4 on x86-64. Count me in!

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 0:01:34
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@T_Power

Quote:
ALL other systems that have moved to x86 HAVE suffered because of Micro$oft. Linux is FREE and even so on x86 it is a joke compared to MS Winblows when looking at market share.

Not in the server market, where it has suitable server applications.

Quote:
and Apple H/W will become redundant.

Apple doesn't make their own hardware i.e. they are made by ODMs such as ASUS, Foxconn and Quanta.

PS; I don’t mind buying Apple made by ASUS or Quanta.

Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 12:10 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 0:06:28
#67 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@Fransexy

Quote:
look ----> http://www.apple.com/uk/macbookpro/ ¤2179 is not that i call cheap

In reference to Apple US prices, refer to Alienware Aurora 7700 dual core (AMD) prices i.e. its a matter of supply and demand**.

**AMD is known to have run out of Athlon 64 3800+ X2.

Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 12:08 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 0:08:44
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@DrBombcrater

Quote:
AROS, from what I've seen of it, is very raw compared to OS4. I downloaded the latest AROS-Max CD and binned it after 10 minutes because it spectacularly failed to drive my very standard PS/2 mouse correctly.

I agree, not what I where thinking about, more that AROS do not have direct support for programs, and this makes it not so interesting to work whit for some not so interested in the development of AROS it self.

Quote:
If Hyperion don't port OS4 to x86 then, frankly, whatever work they do on it will be wasted, because it will die. OS4's chances of gaining enough sales on custom PPC hardware to justify future development were never very good, but with desktop PPC in freefall it now has zero chance.

Thats simply over pessimistic, I see ppc hw projects popping up at Amigaworld like ants, they walk all over the place. I'm even told it runs on PDA's this days. Hyperion are saying they like to see AmigaOS4.x on cell, some forum users need to stop and reflect on how long it's going to take to port it over to x86, it has taken ages to port it PPC, so maybe it time we get in to the bout while it floats or there be no x86 port at all, and stop arguing about x86 vs PPC thing it irrelevant for most tasks any way like, looking at films or surfing the web or for mp3 playback, what are you going to use your amiga for? is what any one need to ask them self, can I do this whit the current standard or do I need Windows + 10 THz computer?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 0:11:37
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Hammer

Quote:
**AMD is known to have run out of Athlon 64 3800+ X2


if this is the case then the x86 market is no better then the PPC market, freescale/IBM failed to deliver now they moved to intel, and now they are in the same position, how funny is that?

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 0:15:44
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

Quote:

Bobsonsirjonny wrote:
X86 isn’t necessarily a better architecture than PPC, but the one advantage it does have is volume. It’s mass produced. Amiga OS 4.0 could have been ported to a couple of chipsets, and we wouldn’t be having the problems we are having now.

Point is – OS 4.0 is homeless. On X86, OS 4.0 may well have been pirated, but the die hards wouldn’t rip it off, and if OS 4.0 was priced cheap enough I can imagine a case where many people buy it for ####s and giggles – the Zeta effect?

I’m sure initially sales of PPC motherboards helped to fund OS 4.0 – iirc that was one of the reasons why the early bird offer was launched etc. Now we are in a situation which seems quite impossible as we have no hardware.

So in answer to people on this thread – I don’t think X86 is any better. Its just more common. I’m with Haynie on this one.

As for the MacTel - Apples move will not hurt there sales. Its a processor - people buy macs for the looks and OS. It wont kill them at all, in fact it may help them compete, and get more market share...

It may help Apple (and it's ISVs partners) in government and corporate world; if the contracts contains a specific requirement for IA-32 compatible.

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Hitback 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 0:27:52
#71 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Sep-2004
Posts: 185
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Apples IPod was successful not because of marketing but because they beat Sony by producing the first digital walkman. Sony, Instead of contiuing the evolutionof its walkman decide tto concentrate on the PS & PS2 they entered the game market and lost the lead on the music device market.

Apple capitalized on this just like they did with Xerox parc and as MS did when it saw the Apple Macintosh.

Right now as it stands apple posted a nice price increace in it's stock- Guess for what? Yeah not PC sales but on it's IPOD growth.

Forget Mac OsX as good as it is it will get lost like Beos in the Wintel space. Why? Because business run windows 2003 servers all IBM and HP blade systems are Windows base VMware Windows base and Linux base all most all networks are MS base or Novlle Base. Cisco base its routers and switches and its IP telephony stuff on MS windows servers. It is a wintel world and Apple had a nice little nich on the PPC but now it is putting its self behind the 8 ball. Jobs ( and he is creative) is going to have to pull every trick out of the bag to compete in a DELL, HP, IBM, SONY and TOSHIBA dominated laptop space.

Jobs may suprise us and do this But my money is on that the Mac PC division will disappear and only the Ipod device market will remain. Have you seen the price of a Mac Book? No thanks

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Hitback 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 0:35:15
#72 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Sep-2004
Posts: 185
From: Unknown

@Hammer

You are all Dreaming I can tell you right now that the GOV is looking at IA and won't buy Macs. Why? It must run Xp!!! Doing a lot of Video work for Gov agencys and all the Laptops that are issue (the Rec for them) MUSt run XP. So that theroy is out (pardon the pun) the Window. Ever try changing a Gov agency? they are modernizing their systems now from Dos and windows 95 and 98 t0 XP . it takes years to complete and they offend takes years to even upgrade from one version to another because of all the red tape and the revolving door of directors and managers who love either 95 or dos novel or Lan manager.

Last edited by Hitback on 11-Jan-2006 at 12:36 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 0:37:10
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
if this is the case then the x86 market is no better then the PPC market, freescale/IBM failed to deliver now they moved to intel, and now they are in the same position, how funny is that?

That’s before AMD’s new Fab 36 being on-line.
Note why Apple avoided AMD. In terms semi-conductor activity AMD/Spansion (before Fab 36) is about same size as Motorola/Freescale.

Atm, Fab 36 manufactures the current K8 designs. With both Fab 30 and 36 on-line, AMD aims for ~33 percent of X86 market. This value is larger than the total PPC’s ~60 million units per year. ~200 million units per year is just Intel's X86 processors.




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Steff 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 0:43:03
#74 ]
Super Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 1342
From: Göteborg, Sweden

@A1200

Quote:
Oh and dual 64bit Xeon machines! That would be like having a super computer in your house compared with anything the Amiga user has now...


That's just stupid.

If Hyperion had started porting to a x86 32bit machine when they started with the ppc port they wouldn't be any nearer a port to a 64bit AMD than they are today to a 64bit ppc, probably farther away.

The only question here is getting this platform off the ground and getting amiga developers back on board ti wasn't going to happen in a bang and it wouldn't have on any other platform either.

The great Dave Haynie will have to excuse me but I didn't read anything revolutionary or especially new in his statement. In this heated diatribe he seems overly negative for some reason, could it be jealous envy? He claims "they're barely a blip on the radar" which shouldn't cause anyone such an emotional response but he goes on to say "What really bothers me is the business case." almost as though it was his business! If it was his business then I would understand his lamenting but in this case it almost seems he hopes the amiga will fail. Could it be because he has no more vested interest in it anymore?

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 0:47:05
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@Hitback

Quote:
You are all Dreaming I can tell you right now that the GOV is looking at IA and won't buy Macs. Why? It must run Xp!!!

So can I i.e. depends on GOV.

Fleet of MacOS X(iMac Lamp types) based terminals in my local motor registry must be a mirage then.

In our contract it only mentions either Linux** or Windows and X86 compatible. **nix like MacOS X X86 edition (or Solaris X86 for that matter) could push it over. Darwine (X86) makes running Windows apps reasonably easy on MacOS X (X86). Windows compatibility is not insurmountable issue in the X86.

Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 01:01 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 01:00 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 12:58 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 12:53 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 12:50 AM.

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CodeSmith 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 1:00:52
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@olegil

Fabio just read my first sentence and immediately went into 'us vs them' mode, then after sputing off he wasn't about to change what he said. Well, I don't care. I personally think it was very funny to see an Italian and a Portuguese complaining about "foreign English speakers"

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minator 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 1:02:00
#77 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@Bobsonsirjonny

Quote:
X86 isn?t necessarily a better architecture than PPC, but the one advantage it does have is volume. It?s mass produced.


PPC is also mass produced but the problem the motherboards are not in volume and there's no consumer oriented bridge chips to use, though that is less of a problem with more integration coming.

PPC production is actually rising sharply with the new consoles. Just as Apple chooses to leave there are 4 new multicore PPC chips in development - Freescale 8641D, PA Semi 1682M, Cell and P6L. P6L is POWER6 Lite, it's the successor to the 970 and is expected to debut at around 5GHz.

The G4 got behind but all of these chips will be easily desktop capable, Cell will be best for heavy lifting of course, P6L* (assuming it is released and has sensible caches / mem controller / no of cores) looks like it could pull ahead of x86, the 970 is already close to the opteron and P6L should be a lot faster than the 970.

The thing is to get a board built around one of these in a volume sufficient too sell at a decent price, needs to run Linux though, the (total) Amiga market is far too small.

*In case you're wondering it's 4 issue OOO.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 1:05:51
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@Hitback

Quote:
You are all Dreaming I can tell you right now that the GOV is looking at IA and won't buy Macs. Why? It must run Xp!!! Doing a lot of Video work for Gov agencys and all the Laptops that are issue (the Rec for them) MUSt run XP.(SNIP)

Note that, Mactel can run Windows XP...

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 1:34:22
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@minator

[/quote]Quote:
PPC is also mass produced but the problem the motherboards are not in volume and there's no consumer oriented bridge chips to use, though that is less of a problem with more integration coming.

In terms of homogenenous core design and what's being mass produce, PPC is not at same level as X86 i.e. dominate by Dothan** (and it's speed-bin cousin), Prescott (and it's speed-bin cousin), K8-Stepping E (and it's speed-bin cousins).

**Replaced by Yonah.

PPC can range 4xx to 9xx with different supervisor support code, SIMD instruction set support and BIOS ecosystem.

Quote:

PPC production is actually rising sharply with the new consoles.

One could define "rising sharply" based on past GC, XBOX and PS2 sales btw...

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CodeSmith 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 1:45:50
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Hammer

Yeah, and 6502 sales are off the scale too, according to WDC. Does this mean we should go back to the good ole' 64? Intel and AMD chips are designed for desktop use, while current (and probably future) PPC is more of an embedded design. Embedded designs have different requirements than desktop, eg processing capacity, support for desktop buses (eg look at all current ppc northbridges, they support PCI-X but not PCIe)

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