@AMiGR

People, wake up, someone writes something about OS4, ignore it.

Damn... This forum is going silent if that happens..

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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@samface and @samwel

I hope I can see you both at PUSH http://www.pushevent.org so we could sit down and talk about amiga and so... :)

Quote:

Leo's posting in this thread was OT and should be ignored by all.

No it wasn't. But this was my last one anyway: people don't want to understand anything at all.

There was no intention to make any war, mine is better, mine came first, whatever,...
Only to show people this situation is totally stupid and a big waste. But it seems you are all happy with it. FINE.

Leo.

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

People ... people ... people!

If Dave Haynie is still here -- what impression are YOU giving him?

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-vortexau, who's A1 XE-G4 remains at half-RAM !
A2000HD (from 1991) 060 64Mb PicassoII with OS3.5 . . . still working.

@vortexau

The "impresion" why did I ever bother to put so many hours of free time into the Amiga ?

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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@Seer

Maybe...but it's not all our fault that we are frustrated, after being kicked from a company to company during over 10+ years!

Personally I am also amazed that Dave is still remotely interested about what's happening here.

I would also like to thank him for big efforts and contributions to the platform.

(Ps. Let's not finish this thread into a pitiful flame war.)

@Mr_Capehill

I hear you, let's get back on topic.

A couple of interesting reads related to the discussion about a possible x86 version of AmigaOS4:

http://www.birdhouse.org/beos/byte/30-bootloader/

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=11085

Anyone claiming that there wouldn't be any risks involved with trying to survive as a commercial stand-alone OS (ie shipped without hardware) on the mainstream hardware market simply hasn't thought all things through.

First of all, forget about support from the hardware manufacturers, their too busy licking M$'s hairy behind to bother with a niche like the AmigaOS. Studying Linux drivers and reverse engineering chipsets is the only thing you can do to in order to be able to write hardware drivers, always one step behind those that are one step behind the cutting edge of hardware. Remember that it has taken thousands of developers world-wide many years to get Linux where it is today with regards to hardware compatibility, yet it is still always one step behind M$ Windows which alot of hardware is specificly designed for nowadays. All Amiga related efforts in the world combined would still not make up a fraction of the resources we would need to maintain compatibility with the middle- nor low-end PC standards of today and tomorrow. The only solution would be settling for a very specific sub-standard PC setup as a requirement for running AmigaOS, requiring most PC owners to replace their computer, either in part or completely, in order to run AmigaOS anyway.

Then we have the problem of piracy. With a dedicated hardware supplier, it's possible to bundle the OS with the hardware, making the OS a part of the hardware purchase. Doing so renders the entire piracy issue null and void. There is no point in pirate copying an OS that is delivered with all hardware that it is compatible with. A stand-alone OS on the other hand, is about as vulnarable to piracy as any other PC-game out there. In fact, certain level of compatibility with hardware it wasn't originally intended for is sometimes enough for people to pirate copy the software in question. As an example, the leaked x86 version of MacOS is still one of the most popular "warez" on piratebay.

Considering all this, especially the articles I refered to in the beginning of this rant, there is quite alot of risks involved with making the AmigaOS a stand-alone OS on the PC hardware market. Risks that the companies involved simply cannot afford to take at the current state of affairs. I, for one, can atleast understand why they have chosen to "play it safe", atleast until they have managed to build up a self-sustainable market. I believe someone from Hyperion once said that it would require something along the lines of 10,000 sales, which is something they also seem to think that they will be able to achieve.

Now please don't get me wrong, I really don't have anything against an x86 version of the AmigaOS per se. It's just that I think we need to take one step at a time and not take any risks that we cannot afford to come true. As the old saying goes; the elevator to success is broken, use the stairs.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

Quote:

If Dave Haynie is still here -- what impression are YOU giving him?

It's not just Dave, what about anyone else who's even vaguely interested in OS4 ?

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@samface

Quote:

First of all, forget about support from the hardware manufacturers, their too busy licking M$'s hairy behind to bother with a niche like the AmigaOS. Studying Linux drivers and reverse engineering chipsets is the only thing you can do to in order to be able to write hardware drivers, always one step behind those that are one step behind the cutting edge of hardware.

You do not need to support every hardware combination on the planet. You can create a generic HAL to make the OS run on most ACPI hardware for example, and then create drivers for
1-2 specific chipsets, to use them to their full potential. That's what most OSes have been doing
for years, including Windows. You can run Windows without any chipset specific drivers, with the generic HAL.

Quote:

Then we have the problem of piracy. With a dedicated hardware supplier, it's possible to bundle the OS with the hardware, making the OS a part of the hardware purchase.

Making the hardware purchases less and driving the prices up, both by a factor of 10.

Quote:

Doing so renders the entire piracy issue null and void.

It also makes the OS itself null and void, since it reduced the market significantly.

Companies always draw a line between anti-piracy and sells. Even Hyperion has done so in the past,
removing a certain kind of copy protection that made the game not run on many systems.
The whole point is to have equilibrium.
You can be 100% certain that locking ALL piracy out also means that you're locking 99% of the legal market out as well.

Quote:

I, for one, can atleast understand why they have chosen to "play it safe", atleast until they have managed to build up a self-sustainable market.

Which won't happen while you "play it sterile", trying to avoid ALL risk. Yes, developing OS4 was a risk of its own but to make it succeed and worthwhile, they NEED to take some risks, serious or not.

Quote:

It's just that I think we need to take one step at a time and not take any risks that we cannot afford to come true. As the old saying goes; the elevator to success is broken, use the stairs.

The problem being, in this case, the elevator to success is broken and the one that tries to get up
has broken legs and has to crawl up the stairs.

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@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: Anyone claiming that there wouldn't be any risks involved with trying to survive as a commercial stand-alone OS (ie shipped without hardware) on the mainstream hardware market simply hasn't thought all things through.

The risk now is Amiga OS is released to enthusiasts and never
grows beyond that.

Last edited by Manu on 22-Jan-2006 at 06:53 PM.

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AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

@Thread


Has this thread length beaten the BBRV "open Peg" length yet ?

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I dont suffer from Insanity - I enjoy it

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@The_Editor

No!

It needs to go another 6 pages A.T.M.

@Colin_Camper

Ok.

/me Cues Sammy & Alkis for another round !!


hehe

/me hides

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I dont suffer from Insanity - I enjoy it

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@Colin_Camper

This thread will inevitably win, because eventually the bbrv thread will be locked or deleted but this one never will, just in case Dave Haynie posts again.

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Fraggle

- insert profound text here -

@Frags

Quote:

just in case Dave Haynie posts again.

When did he post?

@mr.calibra

We'll see.. If I got time and money at that time I'll be there. But I can't promise
anything

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/Harry

[SOLD] µA1-C - 750GX 800MHz - 512MB - Antec Aria case

Avatar by HNL_DK!

@weirdami

His handle here is "hazydave"

@AMiGR

The only possible way to bring AOS4 to the x86 I think would be to build a sepperate board again, just for OS4 using an x86 cpu. I think that is what Apple is doing, and there is a reason why they are doing it that way. I do not think piracy is the only reason why we should not go x86. I think scaleablity is another reason. Also, I think that the x86 archetecture has finally hit a physical wall. That wall is the theoretical wall of how fast that processor can go before roasting or circut jumping. That is why they are moving to multi-processors on one chip.

I think the Cell is more what we should go for. It is more cutting edge technology. Companies are investing $400 million in it's development. They would not do that for something that is not expected to work.

I am in no rush and I do not think Hyperion needs to be either. We have major recent achievments and everyones pucker string is tight especially as close to a launch as we are right now. I have waited 12 years, and I can wait even a couple more if necessary. It has to be done right and it has to be done in an Amiga way. I am not much of a CPU or OS designer so I would leave those choices to people that are experts, but from what I have seen it seems like the Cell is the most Amiga like processor I have seen based on what I have read and heard about it. Very cutting edge and very modern.

I would also like to give these new Amiga hardware companies a chance. If it takes them another year to put a decent board together, I would prefer that over having something rushed out with lots of design flaws.

These are of course my own opinions,

I know alot of people would just like to buy an AmigaOS4 disk and load it into your PC or Mac and put your little boing ball on it and call it an Amiga, but that will never be something I call an Amiga. Yes the days of the built in custom chip are over, but we need to head for newer technology. Do not hang on the tail of the x86 MegaSoft technology. We need to blaze our own trail. If we do not we will never do anything any better than a PC Windows machine that we would be trying to mimic. So I say, lets give the PowerPC a chance and give the hardware companies that are going to be making Amiga boards for Amiga a chance and as soon as an Amiga comes out with a Cell or something similar is the day I upgrade from an AmigaOne. Let's keep the Intell OUTside.

@nzv58l

I totally agree. Well said.

Apart from hacking the PS3 does Linux have the momentum required to have manufacturers bring Cell based mobos to market? I mean, the only other (Non Mac)PPC hardware I can think of is a Peg and I would imagine that mostly sold because of the interest in MorphOS rather than Linux based OSes(Could be wrong). I'm sure there are other PPC based hardware that runs Linux, but practically out of necessity, as the hardware probably wasn't *built for love of Linux* but had to run it, for lack of an alternative. I dunno, maybe that is circular logic. I guess, however it would be daft to build a PPC mobo just to run Linux, when you could have just bought an x86. Linux as ubiquitious as it is, will always be precieved by many as an x86 OS in the same vein Windows is.

If the Amiga community currently has the gumption to create a few PPC based mobos on its own, one would have to think, at a later stage, that one of the companies involved could be first off the blocks with a Cell based mobo because it's a natural evolution. Perhaps we're in a better position for the future than we thought. But without cell we really aren't coming out punching. Amigas never led the Mghz race, but were always clever with custom Graphics and sound, just like a new Cell based Amiga would be. Making the most of stupendously powerful custom hardware is a legacy that no other platform but Amiga has, and one befitting cell perfectly.

Now if only the Amiga was able to become as synonymous with desktop cell implementations as PS3 is in the console arena. Now that would be something. Cell is a whole new ball game and will become a platform unto itself. Linux does not really play to Cell's forte and can't mitigate it's faults. Cell based Linux may find itself shackled to x86 ports more than AmigaOS is, and may not be able to thrive and make the most of a future Cell based platform. AmigaOS needs to position itself to become the pre-eminent Cell platform.

Ok. It's a flight of fancy. But you never know.

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.
The weiners are done but we have no buns!!! Who the hell is running this hotdog stand?

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@Samwel

nice..