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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 1:57:41
#81 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@minator

Quote:
PPC production is actually rising sharply with the new consoles. Just as Apple chooses to leave there are 4 new multicore PPC chips in development - Freescale 8641D, PA Semi 1682M, Cell and P6L. P6L is POWER6 Lite, it's the successor to the 970 and is expected to debut at around 5GHz.

What was the number Intel’s multi-core development again?

Quote:
The G4 got behind but all of these chips will be easily desktop capable, Cell will be best for heavy lifting of course,
.

Only with SPU i.e. it's VMX is shown to be less effective than P4’s SSE and G5’s VMX e.g. refer to cloth simulation test.

PS; SPU’s cloth simulation doesn’t run same code as Pentium IV due to SPU optimization.

Quote:

P6L* (assuming it is released and has sensible caches / mem controller / no of cores) looks like it could pull ahead of x86,

Sony is not only licensee of Rambus technology i.e. AMD has recently Rambus’s licensed technology** and undisclosed project with SUN.

**intellectual property embedded in the DDR 2 and DDR 3 standards, the FB-DIMM and Rambus' own XDR system.

Quote:

the 970 is already close to the opteron and P6L should be a lot faster than the 970.

Like Intel's Xeon, Opteron is just a marketing label. AMD has recently debunked idea that AMD will be sticking with current K8 design in future designs i.e. Intel will not be only one to release a new micro-architecture.

Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 04:27 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 03:26 AM.

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firbodi 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 1:58:12
#82 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2003
Posts: 1046
From: Planet Earth!

@Dave Haynie

There is an idiom in my native language that says: "You're sitting outside the wrestling arena and say knock him out!"

Firbodi

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 2:20:43
#83 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@CodeSmith

Quote:
Yeah, and 6502 sales are off the scale too, according to WDC.

This statement has nothing to do with Dave's statements.

Quote:

Does this mean we should go back to the good ole' 64?

Dave's statements is in the context of neo-Amigas and modern commodity PCs.

Quote:

Intel and AMD chips are designed for desktop use, while current (and probably future) PPC is more of an embedded design.

Depends on Intel and AMD chips as they can cross over.

Quote:

Embedded designs have different requirements than desktop, eg processing capacity, support for desktop buses (eg look at all current ppc northbridges, they support PCI-X but not PCIe)

PCI-X bus is the old standard for PC server and workstations. Anyway, my old ASUS A7N8X has PCI-66 enabled embedded devices e.g. SATA 150.

PCI, PCI-X (for Xeon), AGP and PCI-E are largely an Intel initiative i.e. to bust IBM's MCA and other non-Intel bus slot standards.

Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 02:28 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 02:26 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 02:21 AM.

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kindergip 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 3:47:48
#84 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Aug-2004
Posts: 312
From: Canada

@All

Pulling up old Haynie quotes to start yet another thread on where
how and when OS4 should be seems to be an effective tactic.

But, since none of the posters is an actual mover and shaker
in the current scene, by that I mean, one of the parties writing
the OS or one of the parties creating hardware or an investor
of note, it amounts to nothing more than the usual armchair
quarterbacking that proliferates between releases of hardware
or updates.

Yes, x86 would be fast and cheap.
Yes, Mac hardware is cheap and available.
Yes, a PegII has better specs.

But we aren't on that particular path ATM.

First of all the OS needs to be finalised.
A piece of hardware needs to be available at
a minimum spec that developers can code for.
Then we can look forward to the "high" end or
a whiz bang that might incorporate cel chips
or dual cores if the actual interest and sales
warrant it.

In the meantime if people want to rehash and
argue all their pet viewpoints over and over again
I wish they would have the good grace to provide
a date and source for their quotes much in the same
manner that Helgis was asked to put his name in
the subject line of any thread he starts.

We already have the answers to the three really
good ideas above. No. No. And No.

What part of those answers are people missing?

And the answer for the OS release is and has been
"when it is done"

Stirring the pot has a long and honourable history.
But it needs to have something in it first.






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CodeSmith 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 3:53:03
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@kindergip

You're no fun

Besides, the vast majority of us don't have hardware yet, so all we can do is talk about more-or-less related stuff. As long as we keep it civil, I don't see what the problem is.

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TheGuest- 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 4:03:04
#86 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Oct-2004
Posts: 30
From: Ontario, The Dominion of Canada

@Thread
Why not Amiga OS and a hardware dongle to prevent piracy for PPC as well as X86? I know it is possible but how would someone implement it? I would think it would be somewhat easier because of Hyperion’s efforts so far.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 4:09:24
#87 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@Atheist

Quote:
The x86 CPU is supposed to be getting way too complicated for it's own good, too, right?

Only in the front end.

With K7/K8,
- CISC instructions* that goes through Direct Path Single decoder has 1 to 1 Macro-Op** relationship. K7/K8 has three of these Direct Single decoders.

- CISC instructions* that goes through Direct Path Double decoder has 1 to 2 Macro-Op** relationship. K8 has three of these Direct Double decoders.

- CISC instructions* that goes through Vector Path decoder has relationship of several Macro-Ops. K8 has three of these Vector Path decoders.

K7/K8 can issue 3 Macro-Ops per cycle. Macro-Ops can be either vector or scalar.

Beyond that, the execution core is basically RISCy. Front end only takes less than 10 percent of the transistor budget.

* X86 CISC variable length instruction is a killer for pipeline deeper than Pentium classic and OOO processing.
**Macro-Op is fix length instruction. Fused up to two RISC operations (one instructions must be an address type).
One principle of RISC is a fix length instructions. One principle of VLIW is instruction fusing.

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Maczilla 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 5:54:13
#88 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 19-Oct-2003
Posts: 206
From: USA

@Hammer and Dave H.
I don't want to use any X86 commodity HW. I'd like
to use different hardware than all the other Windoz
and X86 drones. Is there no reason, no justification/
argument against the de facto HW monoculture now
being erected (thanks in part to Apples switch to
Intel chips ) that you could accept as valid?

I can't help but wonder if it is possible to target HW/
chipsets/firmware/bios, etc. with malicious code in
addition to security flaws in OS software (isn't that
sort of how Sony's root kit worked)


Oooh wow! Now I'm a "Regular Member"

Last edited by Maczilla on 11-Jan-2006 at 05:58 AM.

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CodeSmith 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 6:28:25
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@TheGuest-

We'll see how useful hardware dongles are very soon. Apple has now released its first dongled OS (intel macos uses DRM built into the motherboard as a dongle - it's either in the CPU or NB, I'm sure Hammer knows more details). I would be very surprised if there were not a whole bunch of people actively working on cracking it as I type this. Steve Jobs is a perfectionist and knows that piracy will kill the market (plus, Andy Grove is probably quite eager to please his new high-profile customer), so we know the dongles on intel macs will be the state of the art. If the copy protection on OSX is cracked, I don't see how Hyperion could hope to do any better. For all the noise that was made about the dongled AmigaOne motherboards, I suspect the only reason we're not seeing OS4 on Pegs is quite simply device drivers (or rather, lack of them)

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falemagn 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 7:46:31
#90 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@olegil

Olegil (for lack of a better way to name you), I don't see any "you" in the text you quoted, but a "your", and yes, that was directed at him. What is your point anyway?

He was responding to another message of mine, where my point was that whoever choses the AmigaOS4 solution should have no logical problems in chosing AROS. He replied that AROS isn't "modern", so to speak, and I replied that AOS4 isn't either.

Follow the logic now?

I'm going to admit I'm wrong when I am wrong, not when you want to, just to make you happy. And now let's go back to the original topic, yes?

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 7:47:28
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@Maczilla

Quote:

I can't help but wonder if it is possible to target HW/
chipsets/firmware/bios, etc. with malicious code in
addition to security flaws in OS software (isn't that
sort of how Sony's root kit worked)

Sony's rootkit doesn't work on non-root accounts nor with 64bit editions of Windows(for both IA-64 and X64). You can't have kernal level IA-32 code in 64bit OS i.e. there’s no framework to support this type of code.

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falemagn 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 7:50:50
#92 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@DrBombcrater

Quote:

I downloaded the latest AROS-Max CD and binned it after 10 minutes because it spectacularly failed to drive my very standard PS/2 mouse correctly.


Your very standard PS/2 mouse must not have been that standard, if none of the devs has ever come across such an issue.

What's the brand of that mouse? Are you sure you're not using a usb mouse? You sure it's not a usb mouse with a ps/2 adapter?

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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

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falemagn 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 7:54:00
#93 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote:
@olegil

Fabio just read my first sentence and immediately went into 'us vs them' mode, then after sputing off he wasn't about to change what he said.


Funny, you can read my mind? How about reading my words, instead? Since your answer was totally off base, as you didn't understand what I was talking about in the first place.


Quote:

Well, I don't care. I personally think it was very funny to see an Italian and a Portuguese complaining about "foreign English speakers"


And you didn't even see the winking smiley, it seems

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 8:10:48
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@Maczilla

Quote:

I don't want to use any X86 commodity HW. I'd like
to use different hardware than all the other Windoz
and X86 drones. Is there no reason, no justification/
argument against the de facto HW monoculture now
being erected (thanks in part to Apples switch to
Intel chips ) that you could accept as valid?

Apple’s shift to Intel shouldn’t change your right on how you purchase computer hardware...

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cHaOs667 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 8:27:29
#95 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2004
Posts: 706
From: Bad Homburg v.d.H., Germany

@treblesix

So, now i will tell you my opinions:

The decision for the PowerPC is right. Why? Because i think that the Desktop is already dead and at the embedded market there rules the PowerPC in all its varations.
Look at those consoles who are getting more and more in the 'all-day' Computer Business. Why i should spent 500 Euro in an new Computer when i can get an Console for 200-300¤ which is more painless for me and i can watch movies, play games, surf the internet and maybe doning some normal OS things like running an Wordprocessor in the future. That is the way AOS has gone to go! Neither Microsoft or someone else of the OS builder is going this way to its end, so there is enough marketshare for AOS to get.

Someone else stated earlier this thread that he wants to have one cheap model and one high-end... yeah dude, that are excactly my opinions. The 'cheap' models could be something like an console (PS3/Revolution maybe?) and the High-End Model could be like an CELL Powered Workstation with SAS an High-Bandwith Memory to fullfill the needs of geeks like us.

Computing in the future looks more like this in my opinion: You wake up the morning and switch an little black box on, immediately an big black screen on your wall switches on and is presenting the OS. Your E-Mail client is gonnga to download your newest E-Mails in the Background and the 'Workbench' shows you an Menu where you can deicide if youre want to read youre mails, surf the internet, to watch TV/Movies/DVDs, to listen to some WebStreams/MP3s/CDs/Radio or if you want to play some games.
And this situation would be the perfect envoirment for AOS. Its fast and elegant. Everybody can use it and you can customise it so much without programming skills than any other OS. Yes, something like Appls FrontRow is coming to this very close but i want something that comes more closer to todays computing than Apples FrontRow.

Maybe we passed on step in this future with the non licensing of AOS for ACK but i think that this is not the last chance for AOS.

Hmm okay, i hope everybody can understand what i mean and if someone like Dave Hayne (Man, youre awesome - but sometimes i think youre gonna follow the fate of the Computersystems you have designed... youre gonna to be outdated...) want to tell me that an 'free download' on an x86 Architecture will increase the userbase 'dramatically' than everything i can do is to point to BeOS/x86. BeOS has shown us how fast an OS can fall if it tries to challenge such systems like Windows in theyre 'Home-Area' directly and they have shown us that an 'free download' of an OS only increases the userbase for an small amount of time. Many people have tried at those days BeOS for the fact of that its free but nearly nobody stayed at this OS. Why should he, if there is Windows, Linux and MacOS on this Architecture with thousands of cheap or priceless Programms that are all doning the same like full priced BeOS Software... And at the point when BeInc. is going stuck and dying all users are running away like rats in front of an flood. How many Users does have Zeta today? Sometimes it looks like that there are less Users than AmigaOS has Users...

Embedded Devices are the future not desktop computersystems and thats the main point i want state here!

So these are my opinions (okay they are a littlebit weird) and maybe my first and last post in this thread. :)

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TrebleSix 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 8:49:23
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-Sep-2004
Posts: 3747
From: Pembrokeshire, Wales

@number6



Quote:

number6 wrote:
@itix

Quote:
@treblesix

This is old quote. He said this maybe two or three years ago.


@treblesix

Link to this "article" and date please.

#6



Like I said, I found the quote on another forum

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TrebleSix 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 8:50:49
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-Sep-2004
Posts: 3747
From: Pembrokeshire, Wales

The more hardware OS4 can run on, the more users it is gonna get.

Seems a lot of Peg users want the ability to run it on their systems, and I would love to get rid of windows on some of my PC's in favour of a decent OS.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 9:55:08
#98 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@cHaOs667

Quote:
Because i think that the Desktop is already dead and at the embedded market there rules the PowerPC in all its varations.

Hardly dead since you haven't factored in
1. growth of laptops (part of desktop PC market).
2. desktop doesn’t equate just bare MS Office and e-mail i.e. factor in MIS (manage information systems) based solutions i.e. solutions solves specific particular business’s and industry’s needs i.e. financial planning, general accounting, legal accounting (they have thier own accounting system), manufacturing accounting, retail, medical manage information system (non-imaging aspects) document management (integrated with a work processor package), document retention/retrieval "compliance" and ‘etc’.

Then you have PDA (mostly powered based ARM processors) that integrates to a MIS.

Quote:
Computing in the future looks more like this in my opinion: You wake up the morning and switch an little black box on, immediately an big black screen on your wall switches on and is presenting the OS.

Refer to suspend-to-RAM or hibernate (on a modern hard disk).

Quote:

Your E-Mail client is gonnga to download your newest E-Mails in the Background

Keep e-mail client running. Link this to suspend-to-RAM or hibernate feature.

Quote:

and the 'Workbench' shows you an Menu where you can deicide if youre want to read youre mails, surf the internet, to watch TV/Movies/DVDs, to listen to some WebStreams/MP3s/CDs/Radio or if you want to play some games

Functionality already done in MS Windows XP MCE.

Quote:
Hmm okay, i hope everybody can understand what i mean and if someone like Dave Hayne (Man, youre awesome - but sometimes i think youre gonna follow the fate of the Computersystems you have designed... youre gonna to be outdated...) want to tell me that an 'free download' on an x86 Architecture will increase the userbase 'dramatically' than everything i can do is to point to BeOS/x86.

Unlike AOS at that time, BeOS started off with little legacy applications. BeOS is reasonably new OS fighting an establish OS with plenty of legacy applications.
An OS by itself doesn’t win the war or battles.

Quote:
Embedded Devices are the future not desktop computersystems and thats the main point i want state here!

It seems this is a repeat of the old school RISC world's mis-predictions i.e. X86 assimilated RISC techniques to nullify ACE and AIM alliances from the desktop market. For example, laptop PC is practically an embedded device hence it's cross over to thin-n-light devices.

The old school RISC vendors have predicate CISC processors will die but they didn’t factor in Intel’s Pentium Pro (basically credited in destroying ACE) i.e. a CISC-RISC hybrid. Note that AMD has recently license Rambus technology i.e. refer to infamous line from “the Borg”(TM). PS; This is just to illustrate a point.

Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 12:21 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 10:21 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 10:08 AM.

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 9:57:05
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 3035
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@hatschi

Quote:
he was the LEAD engineer


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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 9:58:01
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 3035
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@olegil

Quote:
Hehe, yeah. It's that "G4 processors are good, don't believe the MHz myth" thingie that I'm really hoping will stain them for a while.


What would be funny is if someone can find the 'PPC is great - Intel sucks' page still on their site somewhere.

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