@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @umisef Considering that Amiga Forever has the advantage of being able to run on faster hardware and that many of the things that made Amithlon so much faster than UAE does now exist in UAE too (ie JIT, disabling chipset emulation, etc), I'd say it's a close call. Amiga Forever wins on backwards compatibility (who doesn't like firing up one of those old A500 games once in a while?) , hardware compatibility (should be rather self-explanatory) and not requiring a dual-boot setup to get along with Windows (yes, that is a feature if you're dependant on using it for work, etc.).

Are you advocating WinUAE over AmigaOS4, which doesn't do those things either?

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"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@samface

Quote:

Anyhow, you didn't answer my question. If we start porting the AmigaOS4 to the x86 processor today, when do you reckon I will be able to boot it on my laptop?

If Hyperion started porting OS3 to PPC today, when do you reckon they will be able to boot it on any PPC laptop?

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Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@samface

Here are some of the FUD that are quite dated now and bring us back in the eighties (well, at least in the eighties they were not FUD). I was hoping nobody in his sane mind would try to resort to these, but you proved me wrong. Now if we could get rid of these dinosaurs we might eventually know why an x86 port wouldn't be a good solution.

FUD n°1 : x86 hw isn't well documented and you would have to reverse enginer it or dwell into Linux source code to be able to port an OS to it

Post #647
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First of all, forget about support from the hardware manufacturers, their too busy licking M$'s hairy behind to bother with a niche like the AmigaOS. Studying Linux drivers and reverse engineering chipsets is the only thing you can do to in order to be able to write hardware drivers, always one step behind those that are one step behind the cutting edge of hardware. Remember that it has taken thousands of developers world-wide many years to get Linux where it is today with regards to hardware compatibility, yet it is still always one step behind M$ Windows which alot of hardware is specificly designed for nowadays. All Amiga related efforts in the world combined would still not make up a fraction of the resources we would need to maintain compatibility with the middle- nor low-end PC standards of today and tomorrow.

That one made my day. One should frame it and save it for gloomy days. Can you really write that and not die laughing? Are we in 2006 or not? Hey, Irvin Gould, you're not at Commodore anymore, wake up!

FUD n°2 : only dedicated hw would save us from the 3v1lzs of Piracy (AKA: Ph34r the x86 comodity h4rDw4r!)

Same post
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Then we have the problem of piracy. With a dedicated hardware supplier, it's possible to bundle the OS with the hardware, making the OS a part of the hardware purchase. Doing so renders the entire piracy issue null and void. There is no point in pirate copying an OS that is delivered with all hardware that it is compatible with. A stand-alone OS on the other hand, is about as vulnarable to piracy as any other PC-game out there. In fact, certain level of compatibility with hardware it wasn't originally intended for is sometimes enough for people to pirate copy the software in question. As an example, the leaked x86 version of MacOS is still one of the most popular "warez" on piratebay.

Enough people already replied to that part (including me). At worst, piracy would increase our user base and the amount of software available. OTOH, the only one I see pointing the piracy pb are Windows users, because they've been in bad companies for too long and think the world out there is the same as the Windows users. Other OS users don't even have to talk about it, cause they respect copyright and are happy to support the software they use. And on these OS, the users you meet are honest people too.

FUD n°3 : porting OS4 to x86 would be to big a risk and too costy

Quote:

Considering all this, especially the articles I refered to in the beginning of this rant, there is quite alot of risks involved with making the AmigaOS a stand-alone OS on the PC hardware market. Risks that the companies involved simply cannot afford to take at the current state of affairs. I, for one, can atleast understand why they have chosen to "play it safe", atleast until they have managed to build up a self-sustainable market.

More informed people than me already replied to this. Ones that know Amiga OS (Dave Hayne), already did the job (Bernie Meyer) or know better than you the job involved (Fabio).

Running an OS on x86 hw has become quite a comodity by itself. Well documented, with lots of examples and good development tools.

To finish this :
Quote:

If I let anything go unanswered, then it was probably something not related to any of the points I'm trying to make and/or because a reply would just be fuel for more pointless and endless debates.

I know the lenght of this thread is guetting quite anoying for some. The main reason I've been speaking here is because as an ex-Amiga user, and as one that still believe the OS has a lot to offer (unlike some that don't believe in their OS enough to think it could survive on x86), I'm quite alergic to FUD - and FUD you have served us.

@wegster

Well sorry i suppose you arent allowed an opinion around here but i love how you edit my post which really was no big deal for the comment i wrote considering you never edited any other posts directed at people such as myself....Oh and also maybe you want to read the rules also because id say you comment about me feeling special was sarcastic...You cant fart around here without a warning,very silly...

@Gav

Quote:

Gav wrote: @wegster Well sorry i suppose you arent allowed an opinion around here but i love how you edit my post which really was no big deal for the comment i wrote considering you never edited any other posts directed at people such as myself....Oh and also maybe you want to read the rules also because id say you comment about me feeling special was sarcastic...You cant fart around here without a warning,very silly...

Yay, I get both a PM AND a message in a public thread. Now, *I* feel special. Happier?

No? Ok, your perogative. Any further issues you have with my warning to you or editing of your posts for trolling/baiting take up with PM, and not in the forum. If you choose not to PM me, feel free to PM any other Staff member you choose. You already have my response in PM, continuing it here is not appropriate.

In the meantime, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm aware of the TOS, I'll even quote some for you (yes, sarcasm..imagine that after your current 'contributions' to this thread):

Quote:

Requests from our staff: At any time, if a moderator or administrator makes a request of a user, that user is expected to follow the instructions. We rarely, if ever, challenge our users to do something (usually this has to do with an inappropriate avatar or some sort of aberrant behaviour). However, when it does happen, we expect it to be followed; participate in this site, and you participate in it as a privilege, not a right. You may always PM an administrator or the webmaster to ask questions or file a complaint. However, I place great faith and trust in my staff to do the right thing. Your cooperation is appreciated. Flame/Attacks: Do not flame! Flaming refers to derogatory, abusive, threatening, sarcastic, rude, or otherwise mean-spirited messages directed at members/users. Be cautious when using sarcasm and humour. Without facial expressions and tone of voice, they do not translate easily over the Internet in posts and may be perceived as flaming. Report the flame posts immediately to an Amigaworld Team Member so that the situation can be dealt with immediately. Troll: Trolls show no respect for other people's opinions and deliberately crafts messages to provoke others with the intention of wasting their time and energy or just to cause anger and confrontations. There is no point in arguing with them; their minds are made up. Ignore them, and report the posts immediately to an Amigaworld Team Member.

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @t3g Quote: Just open a subscription, like a 100$ pre-sale of OS4 on x86. You mean like Amiga Inc. did with the Amiga Party Pack and the Club Amiga offer?

No, like Hyperion and Eyetech did when the $800 motherboards were purchased in advance of the OS being available, to fund the OS.

You say at $100, people wouldn't do this, but many did, even at $800.

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"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@cHaOs667

Quote:

cHaOs667 wrote: Why should i port an OS to an Hardware which is dominated an single OS (95-98% Market share on x86 PCs)

That's like saying "Why should I build a car that works on today's existing roads where I have to compete with other cars?"

Would making your new car only run on "special" roads, keep it from competing with the other cars? No. People would just buy the other cars, even moreso now with your choice of needing "special" roads.

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"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@Gav

Quote:

Gav wrote: Then again i just posted so thats helping keeping this on the front page lol dammit.....

If the subject doesn't interest you, why would you participate in it's discussion?

We do have other threads here, you know.

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"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @t3g Well, Fabio did argue that general hardware drivers could be made and that even AROS supports most PC hardware, new as well as old. That's why I asked how long it would take before I would be able to boot AmigaOS4 on my lap-top if we start developing AmigaOS4 for x86 today. And no, saying that I'm trolling isn't really called for.

The answer is as soon as the port was done and you aquired a laptop listed in AOS4's compatibility list, same as now....

...almost the same, as the current PPC compatibility list you have to check only contains the AmigaOne, while the x86 OS4 compatibility list would be much larger, even if it only supported the same chipsets, etc, that OS4 already had to support on PPC, due to being able to source that compatible hardware from many many manufacturers.

Last edited by T_Bone on 27-Jan-2006 at 02:34 AM.

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"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@t3g

Quote:

My main concern is the licensing scheme Amiga Inc chose (read my previous posts). You might be thinking it's pointless to talk about that, I'm thinking it's not (and I'm hoping nobody's going to pop-up again and say it's pointless "because it's how it is and you can't change it")

You seem to misunderstand, i very well got your affinity to the license issue. But if you take that as granted for your x86 scenarios, then stick to that in your PPC scenarios as well. Otherwise, like i said, the point is moot.



Quote:

The fact IBM released *developpment* boards to linux developpers doesn't mean the hw will be available to others.

This alone surely not. But the statements about CELL based linux workstations to be build and the "Open Hardware" approach suggests it. If in doubt, feel free to scan Cell documents / articles on IBMs site.

Quote:

Nor does it mean that if you buy a Cell mb in 6 month (and I'm being really optimistic here) you'll be able to change the processor easily in two years to upgrade your hw.

As also IBM and Freescale have made CPUs in the past that use the same connector, there is no indication that they will not make new processors that can be used to upgrade an old Cell processors.

Quote:

There was also enough information on PPC hw when they started coding OS4 for tha Amiga One.

This is not comparable as it is far less than what is currently made available for the Cell, and you really had to have close ties to a MB manufacturer.

Quote:

They still ran into problems that could have been easily avoided if they had chosen a hw that's as mainstream, stable and thouroughly tested as any good x86 mb

The reasons why they had problems are not related to the architecture, they are related to the fact that they had contracted a company that had an unfinished and untested mainboard design. And again, these problems would not occur if you choose PPC hw thats stable and thoroughly tested as well. As you say that you imply that the licensing issue is solved, we have OS4 on PPC already that need next to no additional porting and without licensing problems you can even now make OS4 available on PPC boards that are stable and thoroughly tested e.g. the DCE boards.


Quote:

Suggesting to start a port through an emulator involves far more risks and delays than porting it to an existing hw (on x86, good chipsets are used for years, so you can change the mb for a more recent one without real pbs. Usually, you don't even need to rewrite anything when the mb are using the same chipset)

If you take PPC mainboards that have the same chipset you wouldn't need to rewrite anything major as well, again that is in no way tied to the architecture. The simulator is in this case necessary to actually test and implement code to use the SPE's. For the main part of the code, there won't be too many changes to make it run on the PPE.

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AFAIK, I didn't see any plans to offer a desktop linux distro an Cell yet (you'll be able to use linux on it it as a server though... but it will be a long time till you can do everyday tasks on it).

As IBM itself will provide adapted linux as a start, gives developers access to boards early on it is pretty daring to conclude that there will be no linux distro for a long time when CELL mb's are available. As they already provide the code + libraries and adapted GNU toolset & gcc suite, it will be very easy for other linux distros to take this up to add support for Cell.

Quote:

You would have to stretch the facts a bit far till you could even imagine that other architectures are in the same playground.

It's not a matter of having the same playground, its a matter if you will be able to run OS4 on it and if this HW is available. Since the porting is up to Hyperion in any case, since they announced their business interest in PPC embedded, since they have it already fully ported to PPC, the only thing is needed is to solve any licensing issues. And this needs to be done first, of course. And if the licensing issue is the only thing that keeps OS4 from being released for avilable PPC machines, there is no need to start with a port to another architecture and produce additional costs - its just necessary to solve the licensing issue and move on.
Quote:

(and that's not what I was considering, so it's not so nice to read an answer that shows you weren't really paying attention to what I wrote)

Apparantly, you should first be coherent about your arguments. If you imply licensing to be solved, then you shouldnt switch back and forth in your comparisons between licensing-solved and not solved. Then you wouldn't have to come to overquick conclusions about who was paying attention.

@t3g

Quote:

FUD n°1 : x86 hw isn't well documented and you would have to reverse enginer it or dwell into Linux source code to be able to port an OS to it

FUD? Maybe. A joke to die laughing for? Well, the Debian Open Hardware Project doesn't seem to think of it as a laughing matter. As they write on http://opencollector.org/Whyfree/open_hardware.html :

Quote:

It sounds crazy that people could sell hardware and not tell you how to use it, but it is actually a growing trend. If a company sells any device which interfaces to a computer without publishing the interface specs, they then have a monopoly on interface software (or can sell the monopoly to a software company). WinModems and WinPrinters - which also cannot be supported by Linux - are a related problem.

Do you think they would really have launched the Open Hardware Certification Program if the PC industry was as open and well documented as you try to portray it?

Quote:

At worst, piracy would increase our user base and the amount of software available.

How is that going to help us when no new version of the AmigaOS is developed because not enough people listened to their conscience and actually payed for the product?

Quote:

OTOH, the only one I see pointing the piracy pb are Windows users, because they've been in bad companies for too long and think the world out there is the same as the Windows users. Other OS users don't even have to talk about it, cause they respect copyright and are happy to support the software they use. And on these OS, the users you meet are honest people too.

Now THAT is complete and utter nonsense. The Joe Avarage Windows user doesn't even know how to install nor use DC++ much less a BitTorrent client. Most piracy is done by the a little more advanced users, such as those with a bit deeper knowledge and interest about computers. Like those with knowledge of and/or experience from setting up a dual-boot system, ie the type of users that an x86 verion of the AmigaOS would be targetting. Or are you seriously saying that my grandma would pirate copy MacOSx86?

I'm sorry but you don't seem to have any real arguments here since the rest of your arguments is basicly based on the above.

Last edited by samface on 27-Jan-2006 at 04:51 PM.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

How is that going to help us when no new version of the AmigaOS is developed because not enough people listened to their conscience and actually payed for the product?

ARGH!
Sam, let's see.
Block all piracy: 1500 users buy your product. Let's say that you earn 10$ per copy. You get 15000$ revenue.
Allow your OS to run on more machines and allow piracy: 3000 users buy your product, 3000 pirate it,
you earn 30000$, and have a considerable user base, meaning that you get more developers and
more support. The many people that pirated it initially, to test it, are gonna buy it at some point.
People generally do not buy software without testing it first.

Microsoft did this to get the market share they now have, they weren't giants when they started doing it.

Last edited by AMiGR on 27-Jan-2006 at 03:20 PM.

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@AMiGR

Quote:

AMiGR wrote: @samface Quote: How is that going to help us when no new version of the AmigaOS is developed because not enough people listened to their conscience and actually payed for the product? ARGH! Sam, let's see. Block all piracy: 1500 users buy your product. Let's say that you earn 10$ per copy. You get 15000$ revenue. Allow your OS to run on more machines and allow piracy: 3000 users buy your product, 3000 pirate it, you earn 30000$, and have a considerable user base, meaning that you get more developers and more support.

That is assuming ALOT. Able to run on more machines != more people buying it. While it is true that it is a limiting factor, it is also a kind of sales insurance. If the AmigaOS4 would have been sold seperately to the AmigaOne instead of as a part of the hardware purchase, do you think they would still have had as many sales of the OS as the hardware? I hope I'm not offending any AmigaOne owners when I say that I don't think so.

Now, considering that it would be practically impossible to make the AmigaOS4 support every PC hardware out there and that it would probably only be compatible with a certain PC substandard, most people would still have had to purchase new hardware in order to run AmigaOS4. So, given that not alot more than those who bought an AmigaOne in order to run AmigaOS4 would buy a new computer to run AmigaOS4 and that, by what seems to be your own estimates, half of them would pirate copy instead of buy a seperately sold AmigaOS4, do you still think it would generate so much more sales?

Quote:

The many people that pirated it initially, to test it, are gonna buy it at some point.

Who are those people? I personally don't know anyone who buys software that they already have for free just because they are so happy with it and because their conscience tells them that it would be good for their karma.

Quote:

People generally do not buy software without testing it first.

Of course. Although, I doubt the theory that people would be "trying" software by pirate copying it. I think it is more common that people buys software because they've got recommendations from a friend or because they have tried it on a friend's computer.

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Microsoft did this to get the market share they now have, they weren't giants when they started doing it.

Nonsense. M$ built their empire on hardware distribution deals and it started with the infamous deal they made with IBM for the IBM-PC's which started the entire IBM-PC clone market. 95-99% of all computers sold has M$ windows preinstalled, all other factors that may have contributed to their success are insignificant.

Last edited by samface on 27-Jan-2006 at 04:35 PM.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@T_Bone

Quote:

T_Bone wrote: @samface Quote: samface wrote: @t3g You mean like Amiga Inc. did with the Amiga Party Pack and the Club Amiga offer? No, like Hyperion and Eyetech did when the $800 motherboards were purchased in advance of the OS being available, to fund the OS. You say at $100, people wouldn't do this, but many did, even at $800.

But for christ sake, the AmigaOne consumers didn't get a promise, voucher nor a membership in a club. They got a computer that they could start using immidiately. It didn't have AmigaOS4, but atleast they had something physical and quite useful to put their hands on while waiting. Are you seriously claiming that just as many would have given all that cash for just another promise not much unlike they had gotten from Amiga Inc. when they joined the Club Amiga? I *seriously* doubt it.

Last edited by samface on 27-Jan-2006 at 05:02 PM.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

But for christ sake, the AmigaOne consumers didn't get a promise, voucher nor a membership in a club.

not quite right,...
We got one year free membership in Club Amiga.

Last edited by tomazkid on 27-Jan-2006 at 05:18 PM.

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Site admins are people too..pooff!

@tomazkid

Well, let's just say that you got so much more than just that.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Yes, they overpaid for a computer that was worthless 'till the release of AmigaOS4. While the AmigaOne is fine for OS4, it's useless for Linux. People bought it on the promise that OS4 would be available for it at some point, and it did get released eventually. So, yes, they bought a promise.

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@samface

Quote:

Of course. Although, I doubt the theory that people would be "trying" software by pirate copying it. I think it is more common that people buys software because they've got recommendations from a friend or because they have tried it on a friend's computer.

I think otherwise, from real life examples I've seen. That used to be the case before the net, nowadays, people download software and then buy it...

Quote:

Nonsense. M$ built their empire on hardware distribution deals and it started with the infamous deal they made with IBM for the IBM-PC's which started the entire IBM-PC clone market. 95-99% of all computers sold has M$ windows preinstalled, all other factors that may have contributed to their success are insignificant.

Hm, where would Windows be had its upgrades not been easily obtainable? Let's see... Where would
95 be when everyone's machines had DOS installed had they not been able to "cheaply" get 95?
98? XP? When XP came out, Microsoft finally got the people that were pirating Windows (the
softcore ones at least) to buy them, by protecting Windows for the first time ever. Mate, dunno what you think,
but in entire countries where Windows now have almost 100% market share, the OS was installed
illegally even by shops selling machines. Then suddently, when they got enough share, they started
hunting down the ones that did so, therefore enforcing the hardware licences and getting one hell
of a lot of money from people that had never bought Windows until then but needed to buy a new
computer, or people that jumped into computing 'cause it became more mainstream.

Last edited by AMiGR on 27-Jan-2006 at 10:13 PM.

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Crumbs... 42 pages! Is this the longest thread EVER?

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SEX SUX

Sex doesn't prove to me that sex doesn't suck.

@RoqueFort

It's far from off topic, it's probably the longest on topic thread ever. Dave Haynie started the x86 discussion we currently have.

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