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      /  What should "entry level hardware" be like?
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olegil 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 1-Feb-2006 15:39:58
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@nDude

That would catch peoples eyes, but noone would buy one until they were truly dedicated (or addicted ). The Amiga always had a low-end and a high-end, the low-end sold well partly because it was so similar to the high-end, and partly because it was so dirt cheap compared to it.

So a low-end with 3 slots and a smaller CPU and a high-end with a big frelling tower, enough CPU to calculate more or less anything within the blink of an eye, and 7 slots (full ATX) would more or less be my idea here. I know for a fact that I'm not good enough to design the latter if it must be a multi-CPU machine with northbridge, southbridge, ethernet, usb, sata, sound etc, but I'm fairly certain I can do the low-end with just SoC, memory and 3 slots.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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olegil 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 1-Feb-2006 15:43:30
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@asymetrix

Quote:

new Entry level Amiga motherboards should be made that have NO PCI, NO DIMM, NO AGP.

Why ? what will this acheive ?

This will reduce the number of layers required (i think) and make it cheaper to make such a motherboard.


Well, you think wrong. All the parts we need to construct a computer use those standard protocols, which means that even if you don't have an AGP slot, you still have an AGP graphics controller on an AGP bus inside the PCB. So the excact same number of layers is needed to run this on-board as it is running it in slots.

Please don't think that making our own graphics controllers would be cheaper than buying a $30 Radeon.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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nDude 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 0:42:29
#63 ]
New Member
Joined: 12-Jul-2004
Posts: 5
From: Unknown

@olegil

I do see your point but the Amiga did in fact not always have a low end. At release there was only A1000.

But look at this standard of the shelf pc motherboard for instance:

snippet from:
http://www.asus.com/products4.aspx?l1=3&l2=15&l3=0&model=766&modelmenu=1


Asus A8N-VM:

- Support AMD Socket 939 Athlon 64FX / Athlon 64 X2 / Athlon 64
- NVIDIA GeForce 6150 + nForce 430
- Dual-channel DDR400
- PCI Express architecture
- Integrated GeForce6 GPU
- Dual VGA Ouput:DVI-D & RGB
- NVIDIA Gigabit LAN with NVIDIA ActiveArmor Firewall
- 4 x SATA II (RAID 0, RAID 1, RAID 0+1, RAID 5)
- 1394a Support
- High Definition Audio


This thing while considered low end on the pc market completely obliterates any motherboard we can hope of putting together. So what does this motherboard cost ?
I just checked newegg and its 68$.

Slap in some memory, the cheapest A64 cpu you can find, a DVD drive,power supply and a case and you have a 64 bit system that runs in circles around anything custom you can build at a reasonable cost with PPCs or in fact any cpu at all.

So then we have the "has to be a PPC in an Amiga" crowd that doesn't understand that there is only one truly beautiful instruction set on this planet and thats the m68k instruction set
If you don't use the m68k you should use an Alpha or possibly an Itanium if you care about style or beauty not a PPC. PPC's were chosen because they were believed to be cost efficient and I guess they still are if you buy them in quantities of 20-100 million like Sony/MS and Nintendo. They were apparently not cost efficient for Apple who only bought 4 million a year.

So it's time to get over the PPC and realize that people almost don't write assembler at all anymore so the instruction set of your CPU is completely irrelevant.

I guess my position is either do something exciting as per my post above or throw in the towel and go with mass produced off the shelf parts with the unique Amiga OS.
Sell a complete preinstalled system with a supported config to avoid trouble and driver problems.

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kgrach 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 4:33:59
#64 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Aug-2003
Posts: 678
From: Farmingdale NY

@nDude

no olegil has the right idea let me explain why. My company makes a Lithium Poly battery charger to charge some large capacity LIPO packs we sell.

Trust me If we could buy one commercially that did what was needed instead of making it ourselves we would. The charger is now in it's 8th reiteration in the last 12 month's.

Not because the earlier designs didn't work well, but because parts for those designs in between different production runs became unavailable for large periods of time or are no longer purchasable in quantities of under 5000 and we are forced to redesign the board for different chips and different parts.

I am now redoing my last design which I thought would solve everything because it had redundancies built into the PCB and the main chip was promised by the factory to be had in any quantity for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately a stupid hexfet on the board has now become unavailable from the manufacturer until mid JUNE. So I purchased a suitable replacement from IRF. Today I discovered after testing the latest batch, yes it does work but charges at half the speed because IRF lied or made a mistake in their spec sheet.

so unless I can find a replacement in the same package I will again have to redesign the PCB and then of course make new boards and test.

So unless you can afford to buy in very large quantities and stock the parts or build all at once and pray there is no hidden bug. Building a board with everything built in would be almost impossible.

Also to build it all on a board would require a series of prototypes to test things out. all that would both increase both the development time and drive the end product cost way up. Unlike what the blue beanies would have you believe the Micro A1 went through several series of beta boards for well over a year before being released. I have one early prototype version here works okay except that both the Ethernet and the PCI slot don't function.. Doh!.

The smart thing is to do what IBM did when they made the first PC. Make everything an add on.

Olegil is right use a system on a chip and a mess of slots so people could populate the board with what they want in a system.

you could have a killer sound card or a simple sound card. Everybody gets what they want in a system and they do not have to pay for anything they don't.

It also makes the board both easier to repair and test out as you could use a series of known good expansion cards. Since nothing is built on board.

Also even with Olegils suggestion it would still cost a minimum of $10000 for a working prototype and that is not even counting licensing cost and the cost of getting OS4 converted over.


kgrach

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Dirk-B 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 4:38:21
#65 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1185
From: Belgium

@nDude

Ofcourse you are right, but for now we cannot do that.
Developping OS4 to another cpu and write all the drivers
that belongs to such a board will take an even longer
time then to release it now on new designed ppc-hardware.

It is "now" that counts and it would be better to make some
new light-hardware to launch OS4 for the first years to come.
If the money rolls then the devs can start to port it to another
cpu if that would be necessary at that time.

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kgrach 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 5:37:45
#66 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Aug-2003
Posts: 678
From: Farmingdale NY

@nDude

What the lets port it all over to the X86 crowd forgets or doesn't have a clue about..
It is not practicable to do unless you make a CUSTOM X86 MOTHERBOARD..........

But not so you say. why can't I can buy any PC motherboard for 15.99 at cheapway and it works with XP. So why not OS4?

Because the MOTHERBOARD MANUFACTURER MAKES DRIVERS FOR XP.
.
But they Also work with Linux.?
YEA because most chipset manufacturers and motherboard makers now make drivers available for LINUX too. You also have half a million or so coders filling in the gaps.

You guy's forget the early Linux years where it worked on just a FEW SELECT hardware setups.

Try this buy a new motherboard and try to get windows 95 to works on it.
What it doesn't work!!!!!
It might work with 98SE if the motherboard manufacturer is feeling generous.

So you say, just support a few motherboards.
okay lets say Hyperion supports that ASUS motherboard.
How many people will buy the motherboard and then Pirate OS4.
and after three month what happens when that motherboard is no longer available.
You will expect Hyperion to write drivers for a new board.
Now how many people do you suppose will upgrade to the new board and then not want to pay for a new copy of OS4 or an upgrade of OS4.
plus the old motherboard people will still want updates for thier boards.

REMEMBER XP IS NOT TRANSFERABLE TO A NEW MACHINE EVEN IF IT THE OLD ONE IS NO LONGER USED. Now I will have allot of people here argue that in their country Eula's and Copyright law mean nothing. Stealing is still stealing

Hyperion will do a ton of work for little or no pay and an endless series of headaches..

What most people forget is even that motherboard from ASUS will go through several different series in it's short life and not all will work 100%.

They will then expect their Amiga dealers to replace said "defective" motherboard for FREE. even though ASUS won't do anything for the dealer except sell them a new motherboard at full price.
So then they will come crying on the forums that Amiga dealers don't stand behind their machines.

X86 is not a solution just another problem.


Kgrach

Last edited by kgrach on 02-Feb-2006 at 05:52 AM.

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Dirk-B 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 6:01:47
#67 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1185
From: Belgium

@kgrach

Yes, the drivers are the big problem.

I think the best pad to go is:

high-end = amy05 G4
middle-end = amy05 G3
low-end = Olegil's SoC-board

Edit: hmm, i forgot the powervixen, maybe middle-end?


Last edited by Dirk-B on 02-Feb-2006 at 06:04 AM.

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SHADES 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 6:31:10
#68 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 865
From: Melbourne

@All-Thread

I have said this from day one.

Just make it expandable. Just Like Dave H did with big box AMIGAs of the day (which still get expanded today) make NEW Amiga HW expandable.

The CPU plugin slot in the 4000 allowed not only 68000 CPU, but PPC upgrades etc. A fantastic idea! The only real problem is a slow BUS and memory interface on a 4000 Mainboard, and also age, no parts.

SO! my recomendations for new hardware are:

- Expandable Mainboard (Forget about all the onboard stuff. If people want a feature, allow them to plug it in. )

- Don't restrict bandwidth. (Make sure that the platform has enough badnwidth to cater for all the devices in it, from graphics cards to I/O cards, giganet, usb2, firewire etc.)

Here's where I see a difference and possible way forward!
We will never compete with MSI, GIGABYTE, ASUS etc in price. We will always pay more just from a pure volume standpoint but as long as we pay for it once or twice, and can expand as much as needed, the people making the boards can keep making money by offering expansion devices like gaiganet, 192 audio, raid cards , graphics cards etc.
We, the customer, get a system that suits OUR needs and can be upgraded and added to as needs change.
Mainboards will will still change as technology moves forward, memory speed, BUS speed etc BUT with a solid and fast ground platform to build and expand on, these updates will not be as frequent and complexity will be less as chipset features will be kept minimal on board. Thngs that cost no extra to do could be implemented, or else they are just not connected.

If we had a BARE mainboard in the theme of something like Hanie's 4000 but with nothing but a fast memory standard and a CPU connector and lots of expansion slots on a standard fast BUS arcitecture, I think it would be Ideal.

The mainboard or hardware manufactures could make and/or sell all the add on cards they liked to fill those slots, whatever ppl wanted.

Everyone gets happy.

Last edited by SHADES on 02-Feb-2006 at 06:39 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 02-Feb-2006 at 06:38 AM.

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It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

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olegil 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 7:51:28
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@kgrach

For the love of God could we NOT have this discussion AGAIN? Honestly, I'm so out of here. EVERY ####ING discussion on this GOD DAMN FORUM ends up with licensing, x86 because it's cheaper, who said what to whom two years ago etc etc. I can NOT take another mile-long discussion between Samface and Seehund, seriously.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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olegil 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 7:53:28
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Dirk-B

You think x8 PCIe and DDR2 on an 800MHz CPU is low-end and PCI graphics with DDR on a 450MHz CPU is middle-end?

What are you smoking?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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hatschi 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 8:05:47
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@olegil
Quote:
I can NOT take another mile-long discussion between Samface and Seehund, seriously.


So why the heck do you keep on reading these threads when they affect you so much? Does anybody force you to do so?

Sounds like self-flagellation.

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Dirk-B 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 9:05:36
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1185
From: Belgium

@olegil

Ow, sorry, i was thinking at a real low end board here.
Some sort of 400 mhz cpu or lower with some pci slots.

The one you mention here is more high-end i think.

Do you have no low-end project going?

Last edited by Dirk-B on 02-Feb-2006 at 09:11 AM.
Last edited by Dirk-B on 02-Feb-2006 at 09:08 AM.

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Dirk-B 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 10:15:26
#73 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1185
From: Belgium

I was thinking at something like this:

low-end drawing

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yoodoo2 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 10:25:08
#74 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Aug-2003
Posts: 1332
From: Stourbridge, UK

@Dirk-B

Do you have an OS4 license for that?

_________________
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MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4

We ran 5 Recursion Computer Fairs before hitting the exit condition

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Dirk-B 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 10:29:11
#75 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1185
From: Belgium

@yoodoo2

Hehe, no, i am just a stupid user.

But i am curious if someone could build this.
And if OS4 could run on such a thing, i am sure
that you could use that in many different ways.

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nDude 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 10:34:23
#76 ]
New Member
Joined: 12-Jul-2004
Posts: 5
From: Unknown

@kgrach

- you're saying that developing a custom board is expensive and I agree buy a better already completed board cheaper from someone who has volume production up and running.
- In your second post you say that mother board manufacturers make drivers for XP , they don't chipset manufacturers do.
- You are saying win95 won't work but Amigaos will be easily pirated - interesting
- You are saying licensing is a problem for Hyperion unless you have custom hardware - newsflash Hyperion lives off selling software that does not require custom hardware.
- You are right in the fact that x86 is a problem. It is because it makes the A-one look like an antique especially with those old x86 south bridges, old PCI, old usb, old IDE etc.
- If they're paranoid they can use a dongle.

@shades

If everything is replaceable you have no common lowest hardware base anymore and you are forced to write drivers until you drop. Not having a set of lowest supported config would be bad for both developers and users.
Cpu connectors are terribly expensive things that are hard to design and tend to slow the system down.



As for drivers being a bigger problem on x86 I can't see that as it's roughly the same devices and the same OS they should port easily.

Porting OS4 to x86 shouldn't be a big problem either and is probably faster than designing new stable hardware.

Who wouldn't buy a complete dual core 2ghz Amiga for $800 over a slow micro A1 motherboard for $900 ?

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drstrangelove 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 11:16:05
#77 ]
Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2005
Posts: 93
From: Unknown

@all


Hi all.

Just wanted to know if anybody else besides me has contacted that guys
and if there is any comment on that?

http://www.ivys.es/devel/DOC-REF-15012005v21.html

In my opinion, there IS hardware for Amiga OS, but the people that
makes it doesn't even know...


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Steff 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 11:19:02
#78 ]
Super Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 1342
From: Göteborg, Sweden

@olegil

Quote:
It's obvious that noone can fulfill the needs of every Amigan, so I personally am not going to try.


What luck we're such a small community!

How many mother board specs would we be looking at if there were millions of us?

_________________
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olegil 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 11:32:37
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@hatschi

"these threads"? This thread was about entry level hardware until just a few hours ago. If the general consensus is that I should refrain from reading ANY threads on AW then by all means tell me and I'll leave. But for now just let me say that it was refreshing to read ONE hardware-related thread without the x86 bickering. While it lasted.

Good bye.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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PhantomInterrogative 
Re: What should "entry level hardware" be like?
Posted on 2-Feb-2006 12:03:54
#80 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Sep-2004
Posts: 809
From: The Interrogative Lair

@olegil

It could be worse. We could be bickering over the inexpensive option of the coldfire processor.

-The Phantom "?"

_________________
I sold my SAM460ex lite... waiting for money to buy a Raspberry Pi... or a Classic A1000 with Buffee... or an A1222... and OS4.3 FE update 11

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