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wegster 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 27-Mar-2006 22:37:19
#181 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Thom_Holwerda

Quote:
Yes, but your personal opinion on internet columns just as well applies to any column-- also in conventional printed media. Do you suggest no one writes his opinions anymore, anywhere?


Of course not. Besides, I'd expect half of mainstream media reporters and writers would be out of work then as well I guess we have different perceptions of responsibility, or that I'd still provide links for people to go if they want 'more info' to decide for themselves, even in the event I'm writing something highly opinionated, moreso on a high volume/highly read site, or at least prefacing it as such (yes, I saw the link to 'Sunday Column' at the top, just wonder how many follow it?

Quote:
And on the liar subject-- I apologize for that, I stepped out of line on that one.


Ok, no worries then, accepted and thanks.

Quote:

It's just that suggestions (not nescesarely by you) that I wrote the column with the sole intention of dissing Hyperion/Amiga/Amigans is a pretty serious accusation that I do not take lightly.


I expect that one is going to be harder to shake, moreso as you didn't give a reason for it, but then again, I expect that's about half of this thread already....going to enlighten us with 'the reason' so we can all stop speculating?

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Tomas 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 27-Mar-2006 22:39:02
#182 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@polka.

Quote:

polka. wrote:
@Tomas

Quote:
I kinda agree with the editorial too, with the exception of blaming this on Hyperion.


It seems as if "Thom is blaming Hyperion" is already successfully transformed/warped to a fact. Hopefully at least some will READ the editorial and make up their own opinion about what "bashing and blaming" really means. I can't find anything of this in the interview.

/me shakes head

Quote:
Or how it will fail utterly if Hyperion/Amiga Inc. don't get their heads out of the sand.

Quote:
But if Hyperion and Amiga Inc. are not able to pull their heads out of the sand-- that is, to forget past grudges and move on for the sake of the platform-- then I don't think Amiga OS4 will ever make it to my or your desktop. Not in a ready-for-the-desktop kind of way, but in a no-way-to-actually-buy-or-run-it kind of way.

Both this quotes seem to suggest to me that Hyperion is also partly responsible for this situation as well. I never meant to say that he blamed it all on hyperion.

As i said, i agree with most of this article, but have a few problems with the above quotes.

I think the guys at hyperion dislike this situation as much as us and that they have indeed be fuc*ed over by Amiga INC.

Last edited by Tomas on 27-Mar-2006 at 10:41 PM.

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Zardoz 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 27-Mar-2006 22:56:38
#183 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@Turambar

They might not be so unknown to some of us.

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umisef 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 27-Mar-2006 23:41:03
#184 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Trezzer

Quote:
I could suggest a port to UltraSPARC too or a hosted Linux environment. What good would it do though?


For crying out loud, this was an EDITORIAL on a site called "OSnews".

You, dear Trezzer, were not the target audience. AW.net members were not the target audience.

OSnews readers are the target audience. OSnews readers, who over the last few months have read articles about "AmigaOS 4.0 Prerelease Update #4 Released", "Apple Licensing Excess Hardware for AmigaOS4?" (noting "most likely a prank"), "Memory Management in AmigaOS 4.0 Explained", "New official AmigaOS 4.0 Website Unveiled" and "New AmigaOS4 Video Demonstrating Screen Dragging", to pick just a few.
Those stories (some by the much maligned Thom himself) created *gasp* interest. Yes, perish the thought, some people from the outside, who hadn't been following the whole soap opera for the last half decade, were looking at their desktop computers and OS's and wondering whether OS4 might be for them. The very editorial being criticised here states that, but you can also look through the comments of the earlier stories and see the same thing.

And yet, month after month (and year after year), these people see stories about prereleases, announcements, websites, demos, but never ever about an actual release. You know the (stated) reason for that, I know the (stated) reason for that. OSnews readers, as a group, generally don't. OSnews readers, as a group, have no idea what the hardware situation is for this "AmigaOS 4" that they have been hearing about every now and again. So giving THEM extra information (even if it is along the lines of "it looks very dire" --- which is unarguably true) cannot be a bad thing.


BTW, I like your example, because OSnews reports today:

Quote:
In what must have seemed to many as a bold move, Sun Microsystems last week announced that it would released the source code for its UltraSparc T1 processor under the GPL


Doesn't mean an UltraSparc port makes any more sense than before, of course, but hey --- UltraSparc *IS* in the news, *IS* getting more accessible, and hey, why not...

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OldTimeUser 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 0:01:10
#185 ]
Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2005
Posts: 58
From: Manchester UK

@Samwel

Quote:
I don't know if ya all noticed.. But OldTimeUser is all over the place trolling and bating for arguments.
He calls himself Redhouse in the thread.. Like no one would understand it's him


Care to back up that accusation? thought not.

@Moderators

You preach rules when i make comments about your precious holy than holy Eyetech but someone can make (yet again) accusations without proof and be allowed to continue to do so.

@Thom Holwerda

Nice article and i give you credit for entering the lions lair.


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wegster 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 0:12:34
#186 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@OldTimeUser

Quote:

OldTimeUser wrote:
@Samwel

Quote:
I don't know if ya all noticed.. But OldTimeUser is all over the place trolling and bating for arguments.
He calls himself Redhouse in the thread.. Like no one would understand it's him


Care to back up that accusation? thought not.

@Moderators

You preach rules when i make comments about your precious holy than holy Eyetech but someone can make (yet again) accusations without proof and be allowed to continue to do so.


No, actually they aren't. Whomever is doing the 'Redhouse impersonation' is pretty sad and unbelievable, but people on this site shouldn't be making unsubstantiated claims as to whomever it may be, less so pointing the finger at other AW members.

Samwel, you've got a PM, please stop the heresay, which is all it is at this point.

Regarding EyeTech, you seem to be the one claiming they're holier than holy, not many here. You simply repeated the same (also unsubstantiated in cases) single line or two attacks in the majority of your posts. As a new user on AW (or perhaps this account), one would wonder why you'd bother to become a member, if you fail to contribute, nor expand on, or back up, your views, and seem to simply post negative comments in the middle of (some) otherwise normal threads. That can certainly be seen as trolling when it's occasional, but when it seems to be the majority of someone's posts, people are certainly going to wonder... regardless, this isn't the thread for it, let's keep it about the editorial/article and related.

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Samwel 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 0:16:23
#187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@OldTimeUser

Has anyone else in the past 12 months repeatedly called Eyetech and Amiga Inc
'crooks'? Like those posts in OSNews..
Oh yeah, You have! Repeatedly even, here on AW.net.

I have not seen anyone really 'hate' Eyetech & Amiga Inc that much since I last
read some posts at MooBunny.

But if you didn't write those posts then I appologise. But they really REALLY were
worded exactly like you wrote here a couple of weeks ago.

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wegster 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 0:19:10
#188 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Samwel

Take it elsewhere, both of you. Start a thread on FFA if you must, but again, accusations without proof directed at other AW members aren't appropriate.

Next response regarding this accusation by either of you in this thread WILL simply be deleted without warning. As I have yet to delete a non spam post on AW, yes, that would mean I'm serious.

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Samwel 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 0:25:53
#189 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@wegster

Sorry, I wrote that answer (the only one I'm going to write on the subject)
before I saw your post.

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Anonymous 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 0:27:12
# ]

0
0

@umisef

Since I am an OSNews reader I must be somewhat in the target demographic... I know what you mean though. I know more about the situation than the average OSNews reader. It would just be pretty good if those who do not know any better were fed facts or at least some links to help them form their own opinion (like Wegster suggested).

Within the context of OSNews the editorial does make sense. The problem is that the premise is flawed. Sure you can argue that it's just an editorial. However it's an editorial that leaves the reader none the wiser - and at worst misinformed (depending on how the editoral is (mis)interpreted).

And yes, I know other platforms get similar treatments (like RiscOS and related hardware for instance), but that doesn't really make the editorial any more than a rehash of things that were discussed and dismissed elsewhere hundreds of times over the last years. Because I know things aren't always represented properly I also tend to actually read forums at the relevant places, when I am interested in the platform. The question is how many actually bother to do so. And how many platforms can one man cover properly without compromising how well you cover them?

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate that a site like OSNews covers Amiga news or even speculates about it. Like others I'd prefer it with a bit of facts and perhaps a sprinkle of reality.

As for UltraSparc... hey ho. Let's go ;)

Last edited by Trezzer on 28-Mar-2006 at 12:32 AM.

 
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terminator 
Move along, nothing to see here
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 0:31:36
#191 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 19-Nov-2003
Posts: 322
From: Unknown

The usual amount of misinformed (and misguided) opinions being passed off as facts, in the "article" and the comments.

We even have the trolls impersonating Alan Redhouse and claiming Eyetech is going into liquidation... Betcha half the posters never owned an Amiga in the first place.

Hey, OS4 doesn't run on a peg. Get over it.

Don't like that, well, too bad. Go b1tch at bbrv, the man of talk but no action. If he really wanted it ported, he would have put up the money and resources. Just made a lot of promises, but when it came to "put up or shut up", which route did he take?

Besides, this project is a partnership, and there has to be agreement between the partners before any new projects start. That's only fair.

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Zardoz 
Re: Move along, nothing to see here
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 0:35:40
#192 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@terminator

For the nth time, in this case it was BB, in the next it won't, you can't expect any hardware manufacturer to pay for a licence or port unless if they are going to get a serious outcome out of this. THIS is why AmigaOS 4 is in this situation now, not because of any BB. This also is why Hyperion is not happy about the current situation.

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umisef 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 1:11:59
#193 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Trezzer

Quote:
Like others I'd prefer it with a bit of facts and perhaps a sprinkle of realit


What ARE those "facts" and "reality" so many accuse Thom of leaving out?

Would you have been happier if the conclusion of the editorial was:

Quote:

"So, well, it looks like all the options which are sensible from a technology point of view (Pegasos, Mac) have zero chance of ever happening. Instead, readers who want to run OS4 should look out for hardware from ACK and Troika, which should have been available last year. Hyperion has confirmed that by late December 05, they had not received any prototypes from either of these parties.
Neither of these parties has given anything even resembling a progress report, or a justification for delays, since then. Neither of these parties has ever said, straight out, that they have secured a license for running AmigaOS4 on their hardware, and have instead repeatedly evaded the question.
Troika is a mysterious non-entity, maintaining complete anonymity and revealing no details whatsoever about who, why, where, when or, really, what they are about. A competition, which finished late 2005 and which had as its prize a sample or prototype of Troika's hardware has yet to be judged, let alone have its prize awarded.

The closest either of those parties has come to showing anything tangible is a layout drawing on Troika's website (insert link here). Which, incidentally, is considerably less than iWin (insert link to archive.org here) had in 1999. For those who don't remember, iWin turned out to be an elaborate hoax; The only hardware ever produced were coffee mugs and pens with iWin's logo.

So, dear readers, barring a minor miracle, it seems very unlikely at this point in time that AmigaOS 4 has any future as a desktop OS, simply because it looks like any hardware which is available, the AmigaONE partners will not license, and any hardware the AmigaONE partners MAY(!) be willing to license --- fails to materialize."


That's the facts, that's the reality. Or do you have different facts?

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cgutjahr 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 1:21:36
#194 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@Thom_Holwerda:

Quote:

so I ask you, like some have asked others who are claiming the same: please point out the factual errors.

See below. Please note that I'm not saying you're the source of all evil, but I agree with wegster that a bit of homework would have resulted in a way better editorial.

(Following quotes are from your editorial)

Quote:

Due to the opennes of the Pegasos platform, any vendor can use the schematics provided by Genesi to build Pegasos clones.

That's simply not true. There's some information available, but apparently not enough to allow "any vendor [...] to build Pegasos clones".

Quote:

a seemingly uncrossable rift between Genesi and Amiga Inc./Hyperion. [...] The chances of Amiga OS4 running on the Pegasos platform are close to zero.

This doesn't make any sense. If, as you claimed earlier on, "any vendor can build Pegasos clones", why would Amiga Inc./Hyperion have to deal with Genesi at all?

Granted, phrases and expressions like "shady past", "What really happened, nobody really knows", "seemingly uncrossable rift" and "forget past grudges and move on for the sake of the platform" add a nice bit of drama to the editorial, but either the pegasos is open (and any vendor can build it) or Amiga/Hyperion have to "forget past grudges". You are contradicting yourself.

You also completely ignore the fact that the Pegasos is not the only hardware that failed to get a license. We know of at least two other vendors that tried to get license for a (different) piece of hardware and failed. That's an important piece of information - perhaps "past grudges" are not the only problem?

Quote:

the Pegasos route seems the best option.

Wrong again. According to Genesi, the Pegasos is currently not ROHS compliant. In other words: In just two months, the Pegasos will no longer be an option at all.

Genesi might of course decide to update the design to comply with ROHS, maybe they're already working on it (for all I know, it might only require replacing some resistors with an ROHS compliant version). But until now, they have not yet announced anything to that regard.

Unless you know more than then rest of us, the claim that "the Pegasos route seems the best option" seems to be somewhat adventurous given these facts.

Quote:

But if Hyperion and Amiga Inc. are not able to pull their heads out of the sand

As others already pointed out, this statement is contradicting everything Hyperion ever stated regarding the Pegasos and their (recent) relationship with Amiga Inc. You apparently decided to ignore these statements (even in this very thread - pretty much the only people you did not respond to were the two Hyperion employees that were directly addressing you).

If you think that Hyperion are not telling the whole truth (or that they're lying) - fine with me. But you're actually hiding information from your readers ("Hyperion claim they're willing to port OS4 to the Pegasos") and that's very bad style IMHO.

[Edit 2: even more typos]

Last edited by cgutjahr on 28-Mar-2006 at 03:25 AM.
Last edited by cgutjahr on 28-Mar-2006 at 01:25 AM.

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Anonymous 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 2:18:00
# ]

0
0

@umisef

For instance some of those cgutjahr pointed out in the meanwhile. Others have already been covered in the thread (or at least refered to), so no reason bringing them up again.

As for your conclusion, that's up to you. You most likely know no more or no less than others around here. Ah, IWin. That tickled the funny bone, though (being reminded about it that is).

 
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Zardoz 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 2:22:31
#196 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@Trezzer

Quote:
As for your conclusion, that's up to you. You most likely know no more or no less than others around here. Ah, IWin. That tickled the funny bone, though (being reminded about it that is).


Well, at least he knows far more about Amiga Inc politics...

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lavo 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 2:36:38
#197 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2004
Posts: 128
From: Perth, Australia

I would be great if you guys had no idea what an Amiga was, stumbled upon AW, then had a read through the forums. Every second posting is about porting an OS with no hardware to run on something else, then quickly drops into bickering. "So and so lied about this......that person is full of it....blah blah blah". From an outsider looking in, its more like a schoolyard! Maybe its time someone that is well respected on this board posted a sticky FAQ with the facts!

At the moment, the lucky few who do have A1 boards do get to run OS4, and help Hyperion bug test the OS. And it seems Hyperion have a back up plan for the OS, in the embedded market. So if someone can't get a desktop hardware platform up and running, at least they can still sell the OS and recoup their investment.

Maybe this is the big chance for the Amiga community to produce something on their own. What would it take to produce a working board? Is there something else already being made that can be easily modified (PPC of course)? There are a lot of clever people here, so I sure if the whole community got together and brainstormed, something fruitful will come out of it. Rather than pushing all your energies in bickering about this and that, have a go at something that is positive! Community-developed hardware is something that would be picked up by the big tech news sites, such as Slashdot, where more interest might help your cause!

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Samwel 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 2:41:48
#198 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@cgutjahr, wegster

Very good points. I agree fully with you, and wegster also.

But I also can appriciate Thom's views that this was simply a small
editorial with HIS point of view. Everyone is entitled to their POV and
to express it. But as I said before I agree with cgutjahr and wegster,
Thom should have checked out some facts before writing this piece
IMHO, and also adding some background info about the subject and
some links for additional info.


@Thom_Holwerda

It's easy to say "just" do a port to Mac, as an example, and stating Linux
as an example. But Linux is free and Apple can't sue "nobody", Hyperion
is a company with a commercial product that is not licenced to run
on Macs. So who would win in a court battle? Hyperion? Wouldn't think so.
Then we have Amiga Inc which ultimately decides on which hardware
OS4 is allowed to run. If they say no (or nothing in this case) then it's final.
Sad but true.

Amiga Inc has "said" no to Pegasos on several occasions. There is simply
nothing Hyperion can do at this time, no matter how much they would like to.

The x86 route is complicated. The actual port to x86 might be possible in
6-12months I think as most of the OS4 code is in C. But some critical parts
are in assembler though. Like parts of the kernel and the whole 68k emulator.
The author of the 68k emulator has said he won't port it to x86. So we would
end up with a OS with no apps except for some of the newer recompiled ones.
Yes this might change in time. But initially (about 6 months) OS4 on x86 would
suck majorly. Although we would get a JIT for E-UAE and be able to run all
older apps through that. In the long run this might be the best route for desktop
Amigas.

The last "new hardware" route, get someone to make hardware for OS4. Well
I think this is the route Hyperion is taking. Eyetech seems to be on the go again
as we have heard on the threads lately. There might be a new batch of A1's after
all. Then there's Troika with their Amy'05 board which was supposed to be
shipped in about december'05-january'06. But it has been delayed for an
unspecified time. But some of the authors of this board has written posts on
AW.net saying it's still coming and not to worry.

The last known route is an classic Amiga expansion card, PowerVixxen by ACK.
This is a small expansion board for A1200 which is supposed to be able to run by
itself aswell. It's based on a SOC.
This should have been released in about January-February. No news about its
current status.

Last edited by Samwel on 28-Mar-2006 at 02:42 AM.

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gary_c 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 3:19:57
#199 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Mar-2004
Posts: 874
From: Chiba, Japan

@cgutjahr

Quote:
Quote:
Due to the opennes of the Pegasos platform, any vendor can use the schematics provided by Genesi to build Pegasos clones.
That's simply not true. There's some information available, but apparently not enough to allow "any vendor [...] to build Pegasos clones".

Anyone who actually wants/intends to build a clone and needs more information can contact Genesi directly to get it, according to BBRV.

Quote:
Quote:
a seemingly uncrossable rift between Genesi and Amiga Inc./Hyperion. [...] The chances of Amiga OS4 running on the Pegasos platform are close to zero.
This doesn't make any sense. If, as you claimed earlier on, "any vendor can build Pegasos clones", why would Amiga Inc./Hyperion have to deal with Genesi at all?

Perhaps because Amiga, Inc. still has to OK the port and would refuse to even if Genesi isn't the manufacturer, simply because AI doesn't want AOS4 associated with or promoting Genesi's interests in any way.

Quote:
Quote:
the Pegasos route seems the best option.
Wrong again. According to Genesi, the Pegasos is currently not ROHS compliant. In other words: In just two months, the Pegasos will no longer be an option at all.

What I've heard -- consistent with your speculation -- is that the main parts are compliant and the Pegasos will be entirely at the necessary time. Anyway, Thom said it "seems the best option", so if you know that Troika or ACK are closer to ROHS compliance and known to work as well as the Pegasos, and are therefore better options, please share your information with us. Lacking that, it appears what Thom said is valid.

-- gary_c

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Zardoz 
Re: OSNews Amiga OS 4'Editorial'
Posted on 28-Mar-2006 3:30:09
#200 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@Samwel

Eeer, Apple doesn't stop anybody from running other OSes on their machines, that would had been illegal. They just don't support any efforts with documentation or anything. In case you haven't noticed, Terrasoft sells official Linux Macs.

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