@pixie

Quote:

Well, if you don't want to hear what costumers have to say, be my guest...

Customer is someone who bought something...
Potential Customer is more likely what you had in mind I would think ? In which case a potential customer is someone who is definitetly considering buying an item (IMO). Which item are you considering buying ? Don't you have a windtell machine already which you would like to use to run AOS4 ? Would you really consider buying a new windtell machine to run AOS4 ?(Reference to "special IntelMac").

Remaining item would be AOS4... How much then would you be willing to pay a new OS for your wintell machine ?

BTW I thought you were more interested in AROS, WinUAE/ Morphos ?

Jerry

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@Rogue

Quote:

Reason 4: There is no x86 in the embedded market

Huh? What embedded markets are we talking about? If you're just talking about mobile phons, PDAs and specialty industrial applications maybe, but not the appliance and thin client markets, where you see a myriad of devices using x86 compatible hardware, including Transmeta, VIA, AMD and many others.

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@RogueQuote:

Rogue wrote: @polka. Quote: Reality flash, that's what people already do. That might be what YOU do, but that is not generally true. I still know a lot of amiga-only people. Besides browsers are just an example, it would go for every kind of software, essentially making the Amiga market totally unattractive for software development.

I also have heard that there are still some Amiga-only people. But that amount of people is marginally small. The rest is already using other OS because they can't afford being only able to browse 70% of the websites correctly, not able to prepare a PowerPoint presentation for their company, nor even use a decent office software.
When you widen the userbase by going x86, chances are higher that ports of software such as Open Office or Firefox actually happen. So I still can't accept this as an argument against x86, because that is what is already happening. This can be only changed by widening the developer base.

Quote:

No it isn't. Look at the situation of Yellow Tab and tell me why a company selling into the oh-so-profitable x86 market has filed fro Chapter 11?

You were saying that your current desktop market (license-dongled PPC) is not viable and doesn't generate enough returns. Now you are indirectly suggesting that also the x86 can't be profitable. So why start OS-development in the first place? There seems to be no way of changing that then.
Further, the financial situation of YT doesn't say anything about the viability of the x86 market. They sold over 100.000 copies which was generally regarded as a huge success and more than anybody had expected. That doesn't mean however that you are automatically doing a "good business". We don't know what exactly led to the financial difficulties. However, it's not the number of sales. That's why your argument is a bit flawed.

Quote:

Unless you have a very specialized customer base, desktop OSes on x86 are a no-go.

Well, AmigaOS has a quiet "specialized customer base", no?

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@Rogue


Quote:

Quote: The sad thing is just that the OS4-partners didn't realize that from the start. The sad part is that you do not have a clue what you are talking about. How many examples of failed attempts on x86 exactly do you need? BeOS? Zeta? OS/2? Linux?

Zeta a failed attempt? Maybe some failed financial planning or managing mistakes, but > 100.000 sales is quiet a success for such an "attempt". Well better than < 2000 after 5 years anyway.

It's even more ridiculous to call Linux a "failed attempt". You can't be serious about that.

Quote:

I have been asking myself the same question, and I can tell you the reason - we are Amiga fans. All of us. That is why we do it. It certainly isn't for the money; if it where that, we wouldn't even have started it. To date, the development has swallowed a six-digit amount of Euros.

I know you're "Amiga fans" and I also think there is a big amount of idealism involved in development. You could be making a lot of money elsewhere but still decide to stay with us.
My question is just who is gonna pay for all this in the future? A six-digit sum is not paid easily, even when people are "Amiga fans". There are investors. Investors do not invest because they like the boing-ball & screen-dragging, but because they want to see a return from their investment.
How is this possible in the future, when there is no viable market to generate profits, as you said? Who would invest in further development?
You are still a commercially oriented company after all. You can't pump money into development without any ROI in sight.

Quote:

If you want to join the Mhz race, I invite you to use Windows.

I already use Windows (mainly for the reasons stated earlier). The Mhz race is fading, it's just that it's still used as a selling argument, because Joe Average doesn't know better.

Last edited by polka. on 18-May-2006 at 05:01 PM.

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@Rogue

Quote:

There are no customers outside the grounp of Amiga-fanatics.

No matter how you slice it, the main reason for this is no new hardware for close to 10 years!

And expensive desktop PPC only hardware with lackluster components will help this situation how exactly? And an AmigaOS for PPC only emebbed markets will drive up demand for the OS how exactly? And prey tell, on what desktop system will people develop for these embedded devices every time a PPC desktop manufacturer goes belly up or moves on?

Quote:

So, pray, how would you like to attract masses of new users outside the Amiga market?

By making the desktop hardware available and accessible to the masses, which will not happen over the mid to long term on the PPC no matter how much you wish it to. There are tons of ex-Amiga users and some curious non-Amiga users that would want to try the OS on stock x86 hardware or within virtual machines. This is a form of marketting that you are obviously unfamiliar with. At the very least, this would mean the possibility of people developping for OS4 on stock x86 hardware possibly for PPC emebbeded devices, which would basically be a win-win situation for you.

Last edited by elatour on 18-May-2006 at 06:22 PM.
Last edited by elatour on 18-May-2006 at 05:19 PM.

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@joerg

Quote:

As long as you base everything on wrong assumtions your posts make no sense, Amiga Inc. doesn't own AmigaOS4.

No, they only own the rights to the Amiga name and the IP. Hmmm...what's the problem with that statement in view of these two facts?

Last edited by elatour on 18-May-2006 at 05:22 PM.

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@Rogue

Quote:

So, pray, how would you like to attract masses of new users outside the Amiga market?

The sales of the C64DTV (70,000 units on the first DAY) might give you an idea where that market could be. I am sure many many ex-Amiga users would like to try out a "Amiga NG" type OS if it is marketed accordingly (Retro Games frontend, etc.).
The point is to lower the hurdle so that people don't have to pay a $1000 dollars for this "experience", but can buy the OS for something like 60 EUR. It's not only about the retro-thing, but this is a nice way of selling it. There would also be people who'd like to have that geeky OS beside other more "serious" OS and actually start to develop something for it.

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@Serpi

Nor have more raw power... apple is well known for their stupidity

Last edited by pixie on 18-May-2006 at 06:18 PM.

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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@Rogue

Quote:

Contrary to x86, PowerPC are being used in embedded applications. We do have a PDA running AmigaOS to begin with (unfortunately I don't think I am allowed to show the video I recorded), and there are concrete plans (which I surely cannot comment on).

I would kill to see that in action.
I for one trust Hyperion to have the know how in the software departmant as well as in managment so, even if it is very hard, I will wait as long as it takes to see what will happend and when the time comes I'm more than ready to support your hard work.

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You can crack anything with your head, even the head itself.
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@AmiGame

I do have a wintel machine, if in an hypothetical world where AOS4 were to be ported over to x86 and my motherboard were supported it would be awesome, but still if a careful list of motherboards were to be chosen, I would rather buy one of these x86 motherboard against those existent today or planned in any shape or form for the near future, even if (just god would know why) one x86 board were to be supported I would (probably) choose it, as it would mean (a) cheaper and (b) more powerful hardware.

Now if you talk me about some PPC hardware that was to be available with x86 performance, price and availability (namely PS3 or other cell architecture) I could think about it... but then I talk of a reality that exists today.

Quote:

Remaining item would be AOS4... How much then would you be willing to pay a new OS for your wintell machine ?

I wouldn't pay more then what MacOSX costs...

Quote:

BTW I thought you were more interested in AROS, WinUAE/ Morphos ?

I'm interested in anything Amiga, most encapsulate it in labels and semantics, for me if it barks as one... it has to be a dog, if you get the picture I rather see them working as one then as separated..

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If it is affordable as opposite to amigaone, then of course i would without even blinking.
The AmigaONE on the other hand was just out of reach for my wallet.

@fatman2021

I wou;dnt support it

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@Rogue

Quote:

AmigaOS 4.0 needs the embedded market, because the desktop market does not yield enough turnover to be feasible.

Quote:

It certainly isn't for the money; if it where that, we wouldn't even have started it. To date, the development has swallowed a six-digit amount of Euros.

Just thinking of those circumstances (Hyperion is a commercial company, desktop market not viable because not enough turnover) I am wondering who is still investing in your business. The 6 digit amount of Euros can't be only for "charity" or for being "Amiga lovers"...
I mean, it's not only about idealism, someone must be willing to invest money without getting any adequate turnover from it.
It rather appears like a project in the open-source community to me, but as we know, it's not.
Strange that a company is doing this, and I would be even more surprised when there would be a commercial company interested in continuing development after OS4 final.

What will happen after OS4 final is released anyway since also Amiga Inc. does not seem to have any interest in this market?

@fatman2021

no

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@Rogue

Quote:

The sad part is that you do not have a clue what you are talking about. How many examples of failed attempts on x86 exactly do you need? BeOS? Zeta? OS/2? Linux?

How many succesful attempts have there "ever" been on PPC? MacOS??

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@Rogue

Quote:

I don't think that a 2 GHz G5 is slow. If you want to join the Mhz race, I invite you to use Windows.

What about 5 years from now? Do you think there is going to be a G6, G7 etc??

What future is there in PPC in the high end?

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@Rogue

Quote:

There are no customers outside the grounp of Amiga-fanatics. Name me a few good reasons why a MacOS or Windows user should use AmigaOS, regardless of the hardware platform?

This comment negates everything you said about Windows and X86! If there are no customers outside Amiga Fantics then you're saying "new" users (windows users) would by AmigaOS4 on X86 and then switch back to Windows to use IE?? At least it would equate to sales.


Also, if there are no customers outside of the Amiga Fanatics then how does it matter if the OS is on X86 or PPC. Just to charge Amiga Fantics 10 times as much for the motherboard??


EDIT:

I'd also like to note I have been using GAH!!! IE for 8 years and I still use AmigaOS and browse with it. Yes I still support (through donations) and hold out for a better browser on AmigaOS.

Last edited by AmigaHeretic on 18-May-2006 at 09:57 PM.

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@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

What about 5 years from now?

Quote:

What future is there in PPC in the high end?

Two possibilities:

1) The OS is not developed further commercially (not enough profits to justify efforts & investments)
2) No custom high-end PPC hardware is available (after PV/Troika is out, the market is saturated with ~3.000-4.000 users, not enough potential purchasers of new hardware, lack of developers)

Last edited by hatschi on 18-May-2006 at 10:01 PM.

@Rogue

Quote:

There are no customers outside the grounp of Amiga-fanatics.

What makes you think that? Do you know howmay Amiga users there were during its reign with Commodore?

Its seems to me you need to do your homework mate.

I and thousands of others jumped ship to the PC market when Commodore went bust. I and a few others have returned in the last few years, waiting for the rise of a new machine. The one main reason why people are using windows is because there is nothing better.

Forgive me for saying this, but Why the hell are you doing this project if its not better that Windows??

Quote:

Name me a few good reasons why a MacOS or Windows user should use AmigaOS, regardless of the hardware platform? I'm sorry, but I am not arrogant enough to think that AmigaOS (or any clone, for the matter) could go against any mainstream OS.

What makes you think its not allready going against any mainstream OS? The only difference is there will be a massive brick wall stopping a potential userbase.

Quote:

It's an OS for Amiga hobbyists, and it will take a long time and a lot of work to get it to any other state. So, pray, how would you like to attract masses of new users outside the Amiga market?

Simple, make it available, highlight its advantages over other OS's, and make it for reasonably priced hardware.

Make it on fast harware so that maybe, just maybe we will get some games companies interested and get the ball rolling.

But I guess that never crossed your mind, with your flawed OS that is only for hobbyists.

Last edited by Wraith2021 on 18-May-2006 at 10:10 PM.

@Rogue

Rogue, I read these posts mostly for their entertainment value and enjoy your posts best of all. However, I do not think you are going to light a lightbulb that is burnt out by applying more voltage. I would much rather hear about the palm top OS 4 version and having you improve the current OS4 than wasting valuable time here.

Even my G4 seems fast enough for me. I don't want an intel chip in my Amiga unless it is on a bridge card. I think the PowerPC has a better range of devices than the x86 and by that I say more scaleable. The only way I see to beat Microsoft and Windows on an X86 box is to start running Windows applications natively. However, in doing so you have to load a bunch of Windows stuff to do it and probably suffer the same performance problems.

I am not optomistic about Mac's move. I think this is going to eventually hurt them, but it will take some time to really tell.

If there were a low end AmigaOne available for $200 bucks it would definitly take off. Even if it were up to $500. Any higher and the x86 fans will start screaming about how expensive it is.

By the way, I love surfing with the Amiga. It is my prefered surfing tool that I use unless there is something I need that AWeb doesn't yet support.