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      /  [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
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Poll : Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Yes.
No.
Not agein
You got to be kidding me!
I'm a Troll
I'm on fire....
I'm nuts....
 
PosterThread
polka. 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:18:21
#61 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@joerg
Quote:

joerg wrote:
@polka.
Quote:
But since Hyperion was contracted for OS4.0,
I wonder where people always get such strange ideas from ...


What is so strange of that "idea" since Amiga Inc. owns the rights to it? The contract is about OS4.0 exactly.

Quote:
Anyway, since that's not the case the rest of your post makes even less sense.


Well, since this is a discussion forum, you might want to explain that statement a bit. Maybe you have even some arguments or points to make?

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Rogue 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:17:07
#62 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@polka.
Quote:
Reality flash, that's what people already do.


That might be what YOU do, but that is not generally true. I still know a lot of amiga-only people. Besides browsers are just an example, it would go for every kind of software, essentially making the Amiga market totally unattractive for software development.

Quote:
It exactly is a result of the "custom-PPC-hardware-only" situation.


No it isn't. Look at the situation of Yellow Tab and tell me why a company selling into the oh-so-profitable x86 market has filed fro Chapter 11? That's wishful thinking. Unless you have a very specialized customer base, desktop OSes on x86 are a no-go.

Don't say Linux now. The market share for Linux on x86 is so insignificant that most companies don't even bother to port their software to Linux. Since I am a fan of Neverwinter Nights, I can tell you that the percentage of people playing the Linux version of NWN online is below 0.1%, and it isn't like the Linux game market is swamped with alternatives.

Quote:
The sad thing is just that the OS4-partners didn't realize that from the start.


The sad part is that you do not have a clue what you are talking about. How many examples of failed attempts on x86 exactly do you need? BeOS? Zeta? OS/2? Linux?

What do you propose to tell those that have Amiga's? No sorry you don't have x86? Ridiculous.

Quote:
There is no reason to keep on developing for 4.x on license-dongled hardware.


Well, I got news for you. IF there had been an X86 version, it would have been similar to what there is now, for numerous reasons. Why do you suppose is there no MacOS X for stock PC's? Why do you suppose are Intel Macs not a penny cheaper than the PowerPC Macs?

Quote:
If the embedded market looks more proftable and the desktop market only generates losses, why not completely abandon it?


I have been asking myself the same question, and I can tell you the reason - we are Amiga fans. All of us. That is why we do it. It certainly isn't for the money; if it where that, we wouldn't even have started it. To date, the development has swallowed a six-digit amount of Euros.

Quote:
the talk about x86 is a result of the no-hardware situation.


And apparently also because of ability to use the search function; there is no other explanation why the same threads pop up over and over again.

Quote:
However, even when hardware becomes available, it will still be expensive and rather slow compared to what is state of the art on x86.


I don't think that a 2 GHz G5 is slow. If you want to join the Mhz race, I invite you to use Windows. It's there, it's relatively inexpensive, the hardware is inexpensive too (unless of course you count in graphics cards that cost as much as a whole AmigaOne).

Quote:
People will still see this as a main hurdle for getting any customers outside the group of Amiga-fanatics.


There are no customers outside the grounp of Amiga-fanatics. Name me a few good reasons why a MacOS or Windows user should use AmigaOS, regardless of the hardware platform? I'm sorry, but I am not arrogant enough to think that AmigaOS (or any clone, for the matter) could go against any mainstream OS. It's an OS for Amiga hobbyists, and it will take a long time and a lot of work to get it to any other state. So, pray, how would you like to attract masses of new users outside the Amiga market?

Ah, nevermind.

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ssolie 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:16:49
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2755
From: Alberta, Canada

@elatour
Quote:
Nobody's forcing anyone to read or even post anything, so I don't understand what the whining is all about.

The whining is in regards to rehashing the same old arguments over and over again. After browsing this thread a bit I see the same old arguments from the same old people. Nothing has changed. Kinda sad really. But feel free to keep arguing if it passes the time. No law against that. But it is frustrating to see the same arguments over and over again on the front page instead of seeing topics about people using their computers to do something novel.

@all
Back on topic, I don't give a flying fck if the hardware is x86 or not. I care about the performance of the computer system and the experience as a whole. The hardware, the software and the social support network all working together are what matters to me. I'll probably get a nasty-gram for saying this but, for example, that is the reason I will not get into AROS. The hardware is basically free, the software has freedom but the social support network is polluted with an arrogance and confrontational attitude I can't stand. So although the hardware is important, for me it is only a piece of what I need to have a satisfying computing experience.

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wolfe 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:14:13
#64 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Aug-2003
Posts: 1283
From: Under The Moon - Howling in the Blue Grass

@Hans

Well this thread is kinda like " Dawn of the Dead Horse"

And maybe I was a bit conservative and really meant to say a thousand more times, since it didn't really take after the first hundred . . .

For those who really want an Amiga style OS on a PC there is AROS, have fun . . .

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Anonymous 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:10:41
# ]

0
0

@polka.

Quote:
But since Hyperion was contracted for OS4.0,
I wonder where people always get such strange ideas from ... Anyway, since that's not the case the rest of your post makes even less sense.

 
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pixie 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:06:43
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3115
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Rogue

Quote:
Reason 2: x86 equals Windows


I fail to understand exactly the business sense of forcing someone to buy an hardware which (a) costs more (b) performs less then competition makes it suddenly more appealable then having one box that not only is on par with the rest of IT world, but still gives it the edge above others due to its close integration with the OS-

If that logic would had prevail, Amiga would have been since the demise of Commodore the most sucessfull company around due to its high prices, but history hadn't shown it that way.

Quote:
Reason 3: x86 means a multitude of chipsets to support

So the Gfx boards, and it seem you managed to have lots of drivers for the vast majority of them.

But to me this is even a false question. OK, you don't want to worry on doing lot of drivers for lots of MBs, but just how different would it be if instead of relying in one PPC board with low volume (that it isn't produced anymore) you picked one (or n other MB that fited your target market) x86 boards with much higher volume production? Just exactly how much would it differ, besides (a) having a less costy motherboard, and (b) more powerfull one that allowed people to have a productive envirnoment instead of having 2 computers in their desk.

Quote:
Reason 4: There is no x86 in the embedded market

I think no one is saying to leave PPC...

Quote:
Okay, that's all I am going to say. Go ahead and dismantle my arguments, I don't care because they are valid for Hyperion and hence nothing you can say is ever going to change this (especially with respect to 1 and 4). We could discuss the gender of angels with the same practical relevance here, the x86 discussion makes about that much sense.

Well, if you don't want to hear what costumers have to say, be my guest... if you think that's good for business..

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Hans 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:06:09
#67 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@wolfe

Quote:

wolfe wrote:
Good luck, maybe after another hundred times this horse will choke on its puke. . .


A dead horse puking? Now this I've got to see! Only another hundred repetitions to go...

Hans

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wolfe 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 15:03:08
#68 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Aug-2003
Posts: 1283
From: Under The Moon - Howling in the Blue Grass

@Rogue

Best reading points so far,

but:

Quote:

So yes, I *am* bored with this discussion, mostly because it is a dead horse and has been beaten to death at least a hundred times in the meanwhile. You may like or dislike the reasons I have given, but face it, it is irrelevant because it just will not happen.


Good luck, maybe after another hundred times this horse will choke on its puke. . .

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:54:12
#69 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@afxgroup

Quote:
STOP.. PLEASE STOP... PLEASE STOP... PLEASE STOOOOOOPPPPP!!!!!


Redirect these comments to your fingers and your keyboard and take a break.

Nobody's forcing anyone to read or even post anything, so I don't understand what the whining is all about.

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:45:02
#70 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@polka.

Regarding the reply to Rouge, that was beautifully argued! I couldn't have said it better myself!

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:40:43
#71 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@smithy

Quote:
Do you really think that or have you just run out of any valid points. It's this kind of elitist 'if you don't agree you must be a pirate' attitude that is killing the Amiga spirit. Actually I've noticed that this kind of attitude is more commonplace in the anti-x86 lobby now. In 5+ years, none of you have managed to come up with a single reason why the x86 port is a bad thing, yet you lot still continue with your incomprehensible anti-x86 dogma and don't even bother justifying your Amiga-death policies. Instead you just resort to abuse ("you're a pirate"), or "I'm bored with this discussion" (then don't join it), or the supremely pathetic "No - because situation will never change" (like group-marching into a minefield chanting "WE AMIGANS RULE!").


Yeah! Someone else calling it like it is!

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Skunkfish 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:39:48
#72 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Sep-2004
Posts: 295
From: Liverpool, UK

The problem with waiting for new hardware for OS4 is that it makes absolutely no economical sense to produce hardware JUST for OS4, the market just isn't big enough and won't be in the near future.

Even if solutions such as the Amy '05 from Troika do turn up there is no way that they could support continued sales from the Amiga market. There will be maybe one production run or two and then the product will be discontinued, leaving another hardware void.

I don't know of any companies proposing OS4 compatible hardware that could manufacture it in a sufficient quantity to be cost effective.

Eyetech tried their best with the AmigaOne but proved that its practically impossible to succeed with that business model.


For OS4 to stand a chance on the desktop it needs to be running on readily available, proven hardware that will see continued development in the future. Maybe time to speak to Bill Buck?

Skunkfish

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afxgroup 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:38:22
#73 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2004
Posts: 1968
From: Taranto, Italy

STOP.. PLEASE STOP... PLEASE STOP... PLEASE STOOOOOOPPPPP!!!!!

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:36:46
#74 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@polka.

Quote:
What a funny reasoning.

I absolutely agree! I've yet to see any legitimate arguements other than the plain fact that Hyperion has next to no interest in the mid to long term success of the Amiga OS on anything other than embedded devices, certainly not the desktop market. I just cannot see any other reason why anyone would take this stance if they legitimately wanted to see the desktop market and the developpers for it grow further.

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elatour 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:30:26
#75 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@Rob

Quote:
I voted no because it's not going to happen.

Not OS4, at least not by Hyperion, but an AmigaOS API compatble OS by others, absolutely.

If anyone wants this to happen in their life times, then I strongly suggest that you support AROS any any way that you can.

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Maczilla 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:29:55
#76 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 19-Oct-2003
Posts: 206
From: USA

I voted no because I'm not interested in running
Winblows - I don't even care much about Intel Macs.
My last Mac will probably be an MDD (for OS 9) or
a perhaps a G5 something or other.

@TrebleSix
I can't speak to office suite or browser, but the
link is to an open source video editor that seems
to be available for most other platforms (perhaps
a cantidate for porting to OS 4)

http://www.jahshaka.org/

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Hans 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:25:14
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@Kronos

Quote:
There may have been some things that would have allways stayed "emulator" but a current x86 running at 50% of it's native speed is still much faster than a G3/4 running together with stone-age componets (and much cheaper off-course).


A bit of dramatic exaggeration here eh? Regardless, the problem would come when people realise that they're only getting 50% out of their machine and start complaining about lack of efficiency etc. AmigaOS is supposed to be an efficient OS so likely lot of people will get "angry and disillusioned" under this scenario. It won't matter if it's faster than current A1 machines, people will feel that they're not getting their money's worth.

Hans

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polka. 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:22:44
#78 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@Seehund

Quote:

Rogue wrote:
Quote:
AmigaOS 4.0 needs the embedded market, because the desktop market does not yield enough turnover to be feasible.

Seehund wrote:
Could be. But then it's funny that the AmigaOS 4 desktop project (which I suppose the vast majority of us here are interested in, unless we're planning to sell "embedded systems") was started at all. After all, AInc decided to kill any possible desktop OS market there could have been, with their hardware licensing creation.


That quote from Rogue is what I'd like some people to read a few times. The desktop market does not yield enough turnover to be feasible.
Could somebody from the anti-x86 group please tell me a reason for that? If it's not the licensing scheme and the "need" for "special" hardware, what is it exactly? What do you think would be the best to make OS4 profitable on the desktop market? Staying PPC? Limiting the OS only to "license" hardware?

Face it, since OS4 as a desktop OS does not yield enough turnover on PPC, there is no reason to develop it beyond version 4.0. Well not unless there is a fundamental change in licensing policy or target hardware.

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Seehund 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 14:01:59
#79 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2006
Posts: 416
From: Dar al-Harb

@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote:

Reason 1: Hyperion does not have a licence for x86, only for PowerPC.


That's not a reason to be against x86 as I see it, it's a simple matter of fact. I suspect that smithy was more interested in why that fact came to be in the first place...

Quote:
Reason 2: x86 equals Windows


Oh yes! And Linux. And AROS. And *BSD. And ...
IMO this is a reason to be FOR x86 (or more "common" hardware in general, also when it comes to PPC), not against it.
The ability to run several OSes INCREASES the value of a given piece of hardware, not the opposite. "With hardware X I can run all these OSes and apps, but not with hardware Y." And this in turn could make each OS running on it more attractive to the potential customer. "This newfangled OS P looks interesting, and it runs on the same cheap/fast/good machine as OS Q, R, S,... and all their apps also run on."

Face it, the primary market for AmigaOS (yeah yeah, I know: on the desktop) are us nerds. Nerds generally don't see having the option to dual boot if they so choose as something negative!

Quote:
Reason 3: x86 means a multitude of chipsets to support

Face it, NVidia is not going to part with any information on NForce chipsets. And even if you HAVE the actual documentation (like with the VIA686 SB) you still run into all sorts of issues. So this is going to swallow a lot of time and effort.

You could of course limit yourself to a specific chipset or board, and hope that six months down the line that board was still available, or the chipset wouldn't have seen at least X new revisions, but I don't think that is feasible.


You mean just like with PPC or any other CPU, then.
Except that if the compulsory hardware licensing idiocy was scrapped, you (or another OS development licensee) could begin work immediately on supporting whatever hardware/chipset you think is viable if the current option disappeared (*cough* Eyetech *cough* "AmigaOne"), without having to wait for a new hardware licensee to appear and to actually get a licence from AInc.

You're not going to be able to squeeze out more information from Apple/Genesi (the only remaining relevant consumer desktop PPC vendors) or their component suppliers than you can get from any consumer desktop x86 vendor or their suppliers. Either the info is available or it's not. In this regard I don't think that the choice of CPU is very relevant. The difference would be that you have more to choose from if you went with x86 (and if the hardware licensing/bundling wasn't compulsory, so that you were free to choose at all).

Quote:
Reason 4: There is no x86 in the embedded market

X86 has zero impact on embedded systems.


Even if this were entirely true, then neither has AmigaOS. Any impact on the embedded market, that is.
I don't get this new "AmigaOS was always meant for the embedded market" cheer. Exactly what type of embedded systems do you think AmigaOS would be at all suitable for, and which vendors would even consider embedding AmigaOS instead of the many established alternatives? One OS component licenced to here and another to there, maybe, but the whole OS...?

AHT had negotiated and were about to sign a licence deal for AOS4 on an STB when AInc did a U-turn on them, and before that AHT were asked by their advisors how much AInc would pay AHT for putting AmigaOS on their STB! The AHT people are/were amigans and were actually interested in shipping AmigaOS, but what about anyone else in the industry...?

I would love to be proven wrong about the viability of "embedded AmigaOS", and wish you luck!

Quote:
AmigaOS 4.0 needs the embedded market, because the desktop market does not yield enough turnover to be feasible.


Could be. But then it's funny that the AmigaOS 4 desktop project (which I suppose the vast majority of us here are interested in, unless we're planning to sell "embedded systems") was started at all. After all, AInc decided to kill any possible desktop OS market there could have been, with their hardware licensing creation.

Quote:
You may like or dislike the reasons I have given, but face it, it is irrelevant because it just will not happen.


Sad but probably true.

Quote:
However, things are going to change soon now, ...


Aaaargh! :P
After the "Two More Weeks" and "When It's Done" slogans, perhaps it's time to adopt "Four More Years" from American politics? ;)


@poll question

Yes. That is if none of my current x86 boxen would run it, and if I wouldn't have to buy "special Amiga hardware" on a "special Amiga hardware" market.

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Kronos 
Re: [Poll] Would buy an x86 computer running AmigaOS 4.0?
Posted on 18-May-2006 13:52:08
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@Hans

It was an emulator that wasn't just but also more stable than anything we've seen on the PPC sofar.

There was also a followup (Umilator) which was never released but show what enormous potentila lay in it's concept.

There may have been some things that would have allways stayed "emulator" but a current x86 running at 50% of it's native speed is still much faster than a G3/4 running together with stone-age componets (and much cheaper off-course).

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