@Helgis

I agree! Amiga should go to open source and be avaiable for AmigaOne, Pegasos and x86.
One operating system - one community!

@Helgis

Quote:

but don't you think it's time to be realistic and stop dreaming outside reality?

Woah... Dude. I think my brain just exploded...

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All glory to the Hypnotoad!

It is kind of funny, but when I originally bought my Amiga 2000 I would have never have guessed that so many Amiga fans would be such fans of x86. I think a lot of Amigans have been using UAE for too long.

Rather than a port, why doesn't someone make a bridge card for an AmigaOne? That way you can put your intel inside sticker on it and everyone would be happy!

Also, I think Intel was always better at marketing, but AMD always delivered more bang for the buck. I think Intel is more fluff than performance.

If x86 would make the Amiga come back, and droves of Amigans would flock to it, then how come AROS isn't flurishing any better even with hardware available? I think that talk is cheap and most everyone that wants AmigaOS4 on x86 just want to get OS4 as cheap as possible or possibly just to pirate it. Not that there is anything wrong with the cheap part, but why are they not activly doing something to support AROS or buying Amiga Hardware for OS4 when it was available. If they did the economy of scale would be better and the price would come down. As it is Eyetech had to stop production and now all of a sudden it has come to a bunch of whinning.

My A1 seems to run pretty nice here without the x86 processor.

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The Hyperion Entertainment group of coders are not in a good mood (my opinion) and could walk away from it all if enough people start getting on their case, which is exactly what a few people on here are up to and will rejoice in most immensely if it happens.

They are the ones who teamed up with the wonderful Amiga Inc, no one twisted their arm. They are just to blame for all this mess as Amiga Inc and Eyetech are, If it all comes to a end then you can blame the trio.

I suppose you think the lack of hardware for OS4 is down to the users?

@Helgis

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Don't get me wrong when i say i really want PPC to be a popular desktop platform and not only for the embedded market.

Why do you think that making OS4 suitable for embedded systems will completely prevent you from using it on your AmigaOne/Troika/ACK/whoever desktop? They don't have to be mutually-exclusive. Windows is used in some embedded applications, but that doesn't seem to have hurt their desktop platform at all.

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@OldTimeUser

Quote:

I suppose you think the lack of hardware for OS4 is down to the users?

That is possibly a true statement. I would not say that it is Hyperions fault in the least though. They are the ones out of the trio that did their part. They delivered an amazingly good OS in a record amount of time for such a small team as well as 4 updates. The problem is that a chain is only as good as it's weakest link. You may say either of the other two are weak links, but not Hyperion.

I just do not get why Eytech left? It was at about the same time as Gary Hare left, so I wonder if there were some collaboration with the two. They must have sold enough units as it seems that as soon as they were produced they sold, even with a high price tag. If they didn't sell enough, then either they were too high priced and didn't make large enough batches or we are to blame for not buying enough of them to make it viable.

@Tomas

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@billt No, but x86 can give us one thing that ppc currently cannot.. Cheap and currently avaliable hardware! Neither can be said for PPC at the moment.

I know. I alluded to that in my other comment too.

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@elatour

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I must have missed something regarding some price fixing conspiracy between Intel and ARM I guess.

ARM doesn't actually make chips. They license their processor design out to other chip makers, and those other chip makers put it into silicon. Intel is one of those. If it's a conspiracy, it's purely bwteeen Apple and Intel, and ARM has nothing to do with it. ARM cannot tell Intel that Intel isn't allowed to charge less for Intel's silicon.

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@jorkany

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you might not recall the problems with getting Motorola to produce faster G4s and ultimately the G5. The problem became bad enough that Apple switched to IBM, only to run into a similar problem. IBM could not deliver G5s in the 3+Ghz range, and they could not produce a G5 suitable for notebooks.

Yes, there was this as well. Apple started advertizing G4 systems at particular clock speeds, but then had to pull back a little as they couldn't get enough chips at those speeds, and there was a big disappointment from potential buyers. I think the PA Semi chip, if it meets the public specs, would be very suitable for a laptop, and surely Apple knew about this thing. But they may not have been happy enough with the chip's schedule. There was a good bit of strain on the camel's back here. Then Intel came along and made an offer with the ipod chip deal and broke the poor camel clean in half.

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@falemagn

Quote:

Dude, don't you think you're too late?

Yes but I've been out today!

TrevorDick

Last edited by TrevorDick on 08-Jun-2006 at 09:54 PM.

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No, I don't need no reason, I'm just breezin'

@nzv58l
Quote:

nzv58l wrote: @OldTimeUser Quote: I suppose you think the lack of hardware for OS4 is down to the users? That is possibly a true statement.

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(...) or we are to blame for not buying enough of them to make it viable.

Eh? You got the basic principles of market economics and s&d wrong somehow.

It's the manufacturer/seller who has to care about making a product "viable", not the hardware-buying public. If he doesn't manage to do so and the product has a high price along with some major flaws, there is no point in selling it in the first place since it would never be "viable" or successful be any means.

Last edited by hatschi on 08-Jun-2006 at 10:49 PM.

@billt

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ARM doesn't actually make chips. They license their processor design out to other chip makers, and those other chip makers put it into silicon. Intel is one of those. If it's a conspiracy, it's purely bwteeen Apple and Intel, and ARM has nothing to do with it. ARM cannot tell Intel that Intel isn't allowed to charge less for Intel's silicon.

But I though the ones used by Apple for its iPods were made by PortalPlayer, which according to something I read (http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=186701236) recently will be switched to Samsung. Intel may be manufacturing ARM chips, but not for Apple's iPods, Samsung just won the contract away from PortalPlayer a few weeks ago. So I'm still wondering what Rogue was suggesting. He must have suspected that the desktop deal was somehow tied to some future iPod deal with Intel. This was obviously sheer speculation on his part as this does not seem to support that theory, not to mention that Apple had started their x86 port some five years ago, before iPod was even a product, so this was hardly a snap or political decision.

Last edited by elatour on 08-Jun-2006 at 09:58 PM.

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@nzv58l

Quote:

nzv58l wrote: It is kind of funny, but when I originally bought my Amiga 2000 I would have never have guessed that so many Amiga fans would be such fans of x86.

My 2000HD came with a factory installed bridgeboard. There's nothing special about PPC that makes it more "Amigalike" than x86.

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I think a lot of Amigans have been using UAE for too long.

Many would stop if they didn't have to.

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Rather than a port, why doesn't someone make a bridge card for an AmigaOne? That way you can put your intel inside sticker on it and everyone would be happy!

Adding proprietary hardware won't remove the availability bottleneck of the other proprietary hardware though.

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Also, I think Intel was always better at marketing, but AMD always delivered more bang for the buck. I think Intel is more fluff than performance.

I haven't bought an Intel since the P3, it's been AMD since. Might get an Intel Mac though.

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If x86 would make the Amiga come back, and droves of Amigans would flock to it, then how come AROS isn't flurishing any better even with hardware available?

Who says AROS isn't flurishing? The only way I know of to compare the two WRT sales is the bounty, which is voluntary, so obviously will handicap AROS in the comparison, or would anyway, if AOS4 could be sold right now.

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I think that talk is cheap and most everyone that wants AmigaOS4 on x86 just want to get OS4 as cheap as possible[quote] That's one reason, and a reasonable one too! [quote]or possibly just to pirate it.

Amithlon did pretty well, even at >$150.00 a pop. I'm sure it's pirated heavily now, but heck, so is MiamiDX for the same reason, you just can't get it anymore.

If piracy is supposedly that rampant that an x86 port would hurt sales, why should anyone develop software for OS4? Proprietary hardware only protects the OS from being pirated, not the applications. Without the applications, OS4 can't be succesfull regardless of CPU anyway.

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Not that there is anything wrong with the cheap part, but why are they not activly doing something to support AROS

People ARE actively supporting AROS.

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or buying Amiga Hardware for OS4 when it was available.

Many thought the hardware was overpriced crap and that the manufacturer was negligent in honoring their warranties. Many were waiting for a non-developer version. Many were waiting for OS4-final.

Good question though, why didn't more people buy OS4 hardware when it was available? For legitimate reasons, or no reason at all? What would make them buy? Might be one for the polls.

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If they did the economy of scale would be better and the price would come down.

Somewhat, but if you're looking for economy of scale, proprietary hardware isn't the place to look.

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As it is Eyetech had to stop production and now all of a sudden it has come to a bunch of whinning.

They didn't HAVE to stop production, they chose to. I'm curious what factors hurt them, but won't hurt other proprietary solution manufacturers doing the same thing.

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My A1 seems to run pretty nice here without the x86 processor.

Maybe you could start a timeshare?

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@Helgis

Quote:

CISC used to mean that they pull out the instructions in a slower and more complex way, instead of RISC which reduce the instructions by pushing all instructions in a single component in a flexible and fast way.

You're close. RISC by definition is less flexible than CISC, that's the only thing I'd correct from what you said there. Reduce complexity, reduce the number of instructions to choose from, take away variety of ways to do a single task and only have one single way.

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All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@Helgis

What a brilliant idea. That'll finally put the Amiga to bed and we can get on with our lives. So who ever has the flag at the moment can you carefully fold it up and put it safely in a drawer, or maybe bury it.

I have to agree though, what is the good of an OS without hardware. Fortunately I have plenty of hardware, and I`m not dreaming of an Amiga revival. Saying that I wouldn`t mind some clever so-and-so porting the Amiga OS4 to say the ' Amiga ' and calling it say, I dunno... OS3.9-II or OS3.9 and a bit, running on the 3.1 ROM. Sadly that's a pipe dream us classic Amiga users have.

We gave up long ago when we were dumped by the new , 'hardware'... Goodness me. Yes go ' x86 ' If I understand MS they will be set up to emulate every platform under Vista anyway...

Sorry...

I`ll go play with a proper Amiga.... And before you all bleat at me... blah blah yeh.. I'm living in the past... Get real... Move with the times... The old kit won`t last for ever.. and OS4 is the only future for the Amiga... etc Whatever. You're all absolutely correct. I'm just a cynical old so and so... Who fortunately still hasn`t quite grown out of OS3.0

Big SMILEY

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

@nzv58l

Quote:

Yea! Thats a good one! What hardware vendor is going to spend their time and money writing drivers for anything other than Windows. NVidia will not even give out enough information to write proper drivers for their hardware. None of the hardware vendors are going to do that. In fact it would be hard to get someone to write software for x86 Amiga OS when you can run Windows on the same machine. It is all about marketing and it does not make sense to write software for another OS when that platform that can run Windows.

you missed one crucial point i was making Most Hardware for x86 is engineered with generic calls that makes the devices function(this refers to motherboards vid cards and sound cards and of course hardware modems). this does not make them fully functional and some slowdowns will occur when using them BUT they will work without explicitly written drivers. all you will need is generic drivers. ATM most of what the amiga is currently doing can be accomplished this way for the time being. as for nvidia not supplying info to make drivers all i can say is duh nothing new here. now how does that affect a generic vga driver?

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Just wait and see what happens to Apple who are quite a bit larger than Amiga will be any time soon. Sure sales may be up with the switch, but lets see how many of their software vendors stick arround for a couple of years. Soon they will be throwing in the towel and just writing stuff for MS Windows, because the audience is much larger and they do not need to port anything since it can run on anyones machine.

or they might write for both platforms simultaneously since only the operating system interfacing is different. oh and BTW how will that be any different from the vendors throwing in the towel when apple was still on the powerpc chip since microsoft is a much bigger player.

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If your just sitting on your thumbs waiting for an x86 port,

i'm not sitting on anything waiting for anything since i don't give a crap what cpu is used. i already have all the computers i need i would buy a computer i want BUT there are none available so i continue tweaking my pvr projects.

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Most people don't use all of their 4 gig processors anyway.

sure they do. i have a 1.8,1.9,2.9 and 3.2 GHz machines and max them all out regularly. you see when the world left hardware peripherals the cpu usage went up, when 3d game detail went up so did cpu & gpu usage,when the os grew the cpu usage went up.

i'll put it this way the more you have the more you need. this applies to ram,video,cpu,and money(at least in my case)
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Or better yet, why don't we make Amiga OS work exactly like Windows. Then we could use their drivers and their sofware. Hey! even use their OS and

now you are being silly.

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@nzv58l
Quote:

It is kind of funny, but when I originally bought my Amiga 2000 I would have never have guessed that so many Amiga fans would be such fans of x86. I think a lot of Amigans have been using UAE for too long. Rather than a port, why doesn't someone make a bridge card for an AmigaOne? That way you can put your intel inside sticker on it and everyone would be happy!

I dont think you get it.. People dont want a x86 port because x86 cpu is better, people want it because there is no real PPC avaliable now. And when the AmigaONE was avaliable, it was also severely overpriced and also was riddled with bugs and lacked behind modern computers when it came to specs.

Quote:

If x86 would make the Amiga come back, and droves of Amigans would flock to it, then how come AROS isn't flurishing any better even with hardware available? I think that talk is cheap and most everyone that wants AmigaOS4 on x86 just want to get OS4 as cheap as possible or possibly just to pirate it. Not that there is anything wrong with the cheap part, but why are they not activly doing something to support AROS or buying Amiga Hardware for OS4 when it was available. If they did the economy of scale would be better and the price would come down. As it is Eyetech had to stop production and now all of a sudden it has come to a bunch of whinning.

Aros is still far from the stage where OS3.x is and still lacks applications and drivers. Aros also seems to try to support most configurations, so it is really hard to find one board that has full support with both sound, nic and gfx at the same time.
I think maybe Aros can be a viable option in the future though and i really look forward to see how it turns out.

And why did i not buy a AmigaONE when it was avaliable? That was mainly because it was overpriced. For the same price as just the plain motherboard, i could get a complete x86 computer indlucing everything with the exception of a monitor.
Also the AmigaONE was riddled with bugs and OS4 was not avaliable yet and would not risk running only linux on it, which was hardly working at all because of dma bugs and so on.

I want a port just because i know i can always get hold of x86 hardware and because it is also much cheaper.

Oh and did you notice how all the AmigaONEs sold out quickly?? Seems like it was Eyetech themself that underestimated the demand and made way to small production run. I bet they could have produced twice the amount and we would still have complained about lack of hardware now. A bigger production run would probably mean less expenses per AmigaONE as well and more profit/or less losses for Eyetech.

Last edited by Tomas on 08-Jun-2006 at 10:51 PM.

@OldTimeUser
Quote:

They are the ones who teamed up with the wonderful Amiga Inc, no one twisted their arm. They are just to blame for all this mess as Amiga Inc and Eyetech are, If it all comes to a end then you can blame the trio.

Are they psychic then? if not, then how the hell could they know how things would turn in future in regards of Amiga inc?

It is not that many years since most people praised Bill McEwen as a true Amiga lover. Things change....

@Helgis

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The main plan is to merge AmigaDE and AmigaOS into what is expected to be AmigaOS5

That _WAS_ the plan, eons ago. There's no reason to believe that still _IS_ in any plans today.

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By giving Hyperion the full right to develop AmigaOS4 doesn't mean they are not interested in AmigaOS. They actually are

I think you're alone in believing that Amiga Inc. is still interested in AmigaOS.

_________________
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@nzv58l

Quote:

My A1 seems to run pretty nice here without the x86 processor.

and there lies the problem. you have an a1 good for you. but what about those of us sitting on the sidelines wondering when the elite club will let us in. i understand they are having problems but i have also noticed that those that complain the loudest about not wanting x86 is those that already have an a1 system of some sort.

please don't take what i say as bashing you or anyone else i just wanted to point out that the x86 is not the evil nemisis of the ppc chips. they all work they all work well it is just a question of price and availability.

Last edited by jkirk on 08-Jun-2006 at 11:00 PM.

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Win•dows: n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.