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elatour
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 30-Oct-2006 21:03:27
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Joined: 18-Jan-2005 Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada | | |
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| @Hammer
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Competition in the “smart” embedded market is not easy since you have several large OS vendors operating in this segment. |
Tell me about it...I just notcied that one of the newer Motorola phones is now using Windows! Every time I turn around, some new mobile phone, PDA or other embedded device which requires a rich user interface is using Windows! I never thought I'd see the day where Microsoft would actually manage to convice most PDA and mobile phone manufacturers to switch to a Windows OS due to performance issues and the huge footprint, but that new reality appears to be coming true every time a new device comes out!
We keep being told that there is no point in AOS4 looking to compete against Windows, Linux or MacOS, which is what we'd be doing if we had AOS4 on x86 platform, which is also why it is "a good idea to stay PPC" and "stay more competitive in the embedded market" where we have a fighting chance", but it is a becoming more and more of a mystery to me each and every day that goes by, WHAT market, whether embedded or otherwise, the Amiga OS will aim or be able to make a dent in at this rate? ...specially when Windows is gobbling up every market there is, at least any market where there is a need for an embddded device with a rich user interface that is.
Smart interractive sex toys perhaps? The Amiga name lends itself rather well...for male clients that is!
Last edited by elatour on 30-Oct-2006 at 09:50 PM. Last edited by elatour on 30-Oct-2006 at 09:49 PM. Last edited by elatour on 30-Oct-2006 at 09:45 PM. Last edited by elatour on 30-Oct-2006 at 09:45 PM.
_________________ When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids... |
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elatour
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 30-Oct-2006 21:26:51
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Joined: 18-Jan-2005 Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada | | |
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| I've been seeing quite a bit of renewed interest in the Amiga lately from people that use and have been using x86 systems for years and would like to return to and/or dabble in the new stuff that's been coming out for the Amiga, not just the retro stuff. Most of those people with a renewed interest in the Amiga usually end up quite soon after having their hopes dashed when they find out that AOS4 is not available for the x86, that it's only available for closed PPC systems which haven't been available for the past two years and which would cost them about 3-4 times what they would pay for the average x86 Windows/Linux/MacOS PC or Laptop (complete system, not the just the mobo).
I remember having a conversation many moons ago about this type of user being more common than we think, having run into many of them over the past year or so, and suggested that this is something that should be considered as a means to move the platform forward if even to just get a few more developers and possibly more disciples , but alas, this, it appears, is not a market worth going after. The question I keep asking myself is, if one has to start somewhere in order to grow the user and developer base, and if this is not a market worth going after, then WHAT IS? I'm afraid that even WHEN or IF any PPC hardware ever gets released, it will just not be enough to spark enough interest to make any difference in ANY market, whether embedded or otherwise.
Last edited by elatour on 30-Oct-2006 at 09:55 PM.
_________________ When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids... |
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jorkany
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 31-Oct-2006 18:15:18
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Cult Member |
Joined: 1-May-2005 Posts: 920
From: Space Coast | | |
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| @Fransexy Quote:
Maybe the underlaying hardware does not care but the Amiga must have an identity. |
The AmigaOne was made by MAI, distributed by Eyetech, came with an OS by Hyperion, and *none* of it was available from Amiga! That right there is an identity crisis.
_________________ Here for the whimpering end |
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myer
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 31-Oct-2006 19:48:52
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New Member |
Joined: 27-Oct-2006 Posts: 2
From: Unknown | | |
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| @DaveAE
I do not think a licence whould be the problem...
C.S. has much experience with systems which run in boxes. Take a look at Rebol View.
If I interprete his website right, he is developing something called 'Internet Operation System' at the moment.
So I assume IOS will be the base system on which some boxes with compatibility layers/wrappers will run. Here you can let run different OSs at the same time. If you are lucky you can run several OS4s at the same time and only one software at each. Then you have Memory Protection. >;->
Somehow such a concept reminds me to MorphOS.
On the other hand I would not bet that C.S. company is capable to reach the OS4 on PC goal when even the Amiga compatibility of Rebol was deserted. At least I do not see any newer versions and I could not find out how to tell Rebol which my standard Amiga browser would be, to access the www-functions. Rebol was advertised as a multiplatform system offering software compatibility for many platforms but somehow it looks to me that from these many platforms only X86 is left. However 1000 OS4 users would mean 1000 additonal units of IOS sold.
And this somehow reminds me to AmigaInc. and AmigaAnywhere, now known as AmigaNowhere.
I do not like any AmigaOS on X86. I do own about 10 PC (3 of them are notebooks) but on none of them is any AmigaOS or emulation installed. I do not see any sense in it. It is a pain in the ass to use the unergonomical PC keybords where ctrl and the cursor keys are completly misplaced, where space often shrinks to nothing and where is no help key. But the most annoying thing is, that smaller PC keybord often even lack a Windows key and you can't use an Amiga system properly. I did not think about this fact and now I have 3 keyboards which can't be used with AmigaOS (one of them is on one of my PC notebooks...).
And I do not like the ubiquity of cheaply produced x86er hardware made in China. If you only buy cheap crap, one day quality products and products for special purposes will be gone and then you will whine because you won't have any alternativ anymore if you are looking for a special hardware for a special purpose.
Would you like it if all people would wear the same cheesy cloth (like prisoners)? You would not buy a good looking shirt, if you could get a cheap one, would you?
Would you like it if there would be only one genmanipulated cheap dish left, which you have to eat every day of your life?
Would you like it if only one type of animals would exist? Be careful! If you choose dogs you will have to eat them in the future.
And why the heck should we have the choise between different governments? Just take the cheapest one and let the other parties die... Who needs different parties when there is a mainsteam party which promises you heaven on earth? They shall rule forever no matter what they do.
Using something which is not x86-PC means to keep the opportunity to choose. And you needn't deal with this Bios crap and card slots which are connected to same IRQs so you can't use them with heavy duty hardware. Not to forget the large energy consumption and the giant coolers and fans, fast dying crappy capacitors and other fake parts.
Everyone who buys cheap hardware buys twice!
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Hammer
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 31-Oct-2006 21:20:31
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Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5246
From: Australia | | |
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| @myer
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It is a pain in the ass to use the unergonomical PC keybords where ctrl and the cursor keys are completly misplaced, where space often shrinks to nothing and where is no help key
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My MS built keyboard has the text "Help" under "F1" text and includes Windows keys.
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that smaller PC keybord often even lack a Windows key and |
My 15.1"/15.4" laptops (three of them, 2004(35W Athlon 64 Mobile) to 2005 (25Watt Turion 64) includes Windows keys.
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And you needn't deal with this Bios crap and card slots which are connected to same IRQs so you can't use them with heavy duty hardware.
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Depends on the chipset and motherboard.
Last edited by Hammer on 31-Oct-2006 at 09:26 PM.
_________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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Hannibal_Smith
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 31-Oct-2006 22:14:01
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Regular Member |
Joined: 2-Sep-2006 Posts: 122
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Hammer
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Hammer wrote: @myer
Quote:
It is a pain in the ass to use the unergonomical PC keybords where ctrl and the cursor keys are completly misplaced, where space often shrinks to nothing and where is no help key
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My MS built keyboard has the text "Help" under "F1" text and includes Windows keys.
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Sometimes I do wonder if you have ever actually seen an Amiga. |
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abalaban
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 31-Oct-2006 23:24:30
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Joined: 1-Oct-2004 Posts: 1114
From: France | | |
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| @Hammer
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My MS built keyboard has the text "Help" under "F1" text and includes Windows keys. |
And on mine under (in fact it's on it) I have the word "Nouveau" (New in french)... Last edited by abalaban on 31-Oct-2006 at 11:25 PM.
_________________ AOS 4.1 : I dream it, Hyperion did it ! Now dreaming AOS 4.2... Thank you to all devs involved for this great job ! |
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debrun
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 1-Nov-2006 3:45:55
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Joined: 1-Oct-2006 Posts: 347
From: New York | | |
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| @Carl-S
Its the smartest common sense business move for Amiga.
Hyperion/Amiga have built a business frame around PPC though.
They don't have the time or resources to do x86 even though it may be their only shot at survival.
The only way I can see Amiga bail out of PPC to x86 at this time is to SUCCEED at PPC with inexpensive harware and survive long enough for more investment to do x86 development.
Unless the given constants change.... _________________ If you're going through hell, keep going. -Winston Churchill |
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AmigaHeretic
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 1-Nov-2006 4:00:52
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Super Member |
Joined: 7-Mar-2003 Posts: 1697
From: Oregon | | |
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| @debrun
"They don't have the time or resources to do x86 even though it may be their only shot at survival."
Well I guess hindsight is 20/20.
If they had figured people would pay $900 for a motherboard and a copy of Amiga OS4, then they should have started on x86 in the first place.
They could still have still charged $900, just that $59 would have gone to the x86 board and they could have kept the other $841 in profit.
AmigaHeretic _________________ A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together |
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Hammer
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 1-Nov-2006 7:02:26
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Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5246
From: Australia | | |
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| @Hannibal_Smith
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Sometimes I do wonder if you have ever actually seen an Amiga. |
I use to own an Amiga 3000/030 Desktop @25Mhz/6MB RAM/SCSI 120MB HD/SCSI 2X CD-ROM/AmigaOS 2.04** (for high school work and bbs access) and two A500s (for NULL modem games). Systems lasted to 1996.
**Later upgraded to AmigaOS 3.x.
_________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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Hammer
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 1-Nov-2006 7:26:02
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Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5246
From: Australia | | |
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| @myer
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And I do not like the ubiquity of cheaply produced x86er hardware made in China. If you only buy cheap crap, one day quality products and products for special purposes will be gone and then you will whine because you won't have any alternativ anymore if you are looking for a special hardware for a special purpose.
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Factor in economic of scale for X86. “Far east” Asian built AmigaOnes are not cheap.
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Would you like it if all people would wear the same cheesy cloth (like prisoners)? You would not buy a good looking shirt, if you could get a cheap one, would you?
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Refer to Apple’s products.
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Not to forget the large energy consumption and the giant coolers
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Emmm, refer to Apple PowerMac G5 for such descriptions. Also, factor in X86’s mobile processor's power consumption and cooling solutions.
If you have a late model laptop (for supported power management designs), download the latest RMclock tool for battery discharge rate (in watts). This will give you an approximate system power consumption.
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Largely limited to Pentium IV desktop chips and “flagship” X86 processors.
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fast dying crappy capacitors and other fake parts.
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Are you claiming this statement applies all cases?
Last edited by Hammer on 01-Nov-2006 at 07:30 AM.
_________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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itix
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 1-Nov-2006 7:41:47
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Joined: 22-Dec-2004 Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world | | |
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| @elatour
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Tell me about it...I just notcied that one of the newer Motorola phones is now using Windows! Every time I turn around, some new mobile phone, PDA or other embedded device which requires a rich user interface is using Windows! I never thought I'd see the day where Microsoft would actually manage to convice most PDA and mobile phone manufacturers to switch to a Windows OS due to performance issues and the huge footprint, but that new reality appears to be coming true every time a new device comes out!
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If you had to develop software for silly Symbian you would prefer Windows too._________________ Amiga Developer Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook |
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Plaz
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 2-Nov-2006 0:22:31
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Joined: 2-Oct-2003 Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta | | |
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| @jorkany
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The AmigaOne was made by MAI, distributed by Eyetech, came with an OS by Hyperion, and *none* of it was available from Amiga! That right there is an identity crisis. |
Wow, you're right. I feel like I need therapy just reading that
Plaz |
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elatour
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 2-Nov-2006 0:39:34
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Joined: 18-Jan-2005 Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada | | |
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| @itix
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If you had to develop software for silly Symbian you would prefer Windows too. |
Yes, more than likely. However, the obvious point here is that they had many others to pick from, and yet, they picked Windows. Whether some people agree or not, that says something. And to me, that tells me that, like it not, Windows is very quickly dominating this market space too, the space Hyperion and Amiga Inc. was hoping to compete in with AOS4 and AOS5 respectively. They may have had a chance 6-7 years ago when first dreamed these projects up, but that opportunity has long since passed them buy and that ship has now sailed off, IMHO.
EDIT: Imagine that even IF we get decent custom PPC desktop hardware to run AOS4 on, how may more years would it take to bring an embedded product to market with AOS4 on it....1 or 2?!?! That's up to 2 more years lead time for Microsoft to completely take over the interrractive and rich user interface embedded market with Windows, like those required for the PDA, mobile phone, personal media (DVD,MP3,etc.) player and even possibly the protable game! It will only get harder to penetrate this market as time goes on, not easier.
Last edited by elatour on 02-Nov-2006 at 01:26 AM. Last edited by elatour on 02-Nov-2006 at 12:41 AM.
_________________ When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids... |
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Plaz
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 2-Nov-2006 0:56:55
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Joined: 2-Oct-2003 Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta | | |
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| @elatour
I have to wonder how things might have been different if Amiga Inc would have been able to float their IPO, before the market plung back when. Even SCO stock was about $32us/share there for a little while. What is it now.... 85cents/share?
Maybe with the right capital we would have had new desktops, other hw and even a sliver of a share of some kind of a market by now. Sigh.... bad luck.
Plaz Last edited by Plaz on 02-Nov-2006 at 12:58 AM.
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CodeSmith
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 2-Nov-2006 3:31:26
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003 Posts: 3045
From: USA | | |
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| @elatour
The "windows" that runs on cellphones is a very different beast than that which runs on desktops. It shares a similar UI and it's (sortof) source compatible with desktop Windows, but the similarities end there.
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ChrisH
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 2-Nov-2006 10:37:05
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Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Jan-2005 Posts: 6679
From: Unknown | | |
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| @CodeSmith It's also similar to Windows in that it crashes a lot particularly compared to most Symbian smartphones (although they still aren't as rock-solid as the Psion PDAs that Symbian is based upon). _________________ Author of the PortablE programming language. It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue... |
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Hammer
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 2-Nov-2006 11:12:32
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Elite Member |
Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5246
From: Australia | | |
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| @CodeSmith
It has dotNET compact framework. _________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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Benji
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 2-Nov-2006 13:30:50
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Joined: 1-Nov-2003 Posts: 573
From: Cheltenham or London, UK | | |
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| @myer
I can agree with much of the sentiment of what you say, having worked in IT since the early 90s I have seen changes in quality (more noticable on cheaper lines even from big manufacturers like Compaq/Dell etc). The problem being it is an emotive reaction too. Dying capacitors from a few years ago affected washing machines and televisions too.
The Amiga was never about being the cheapest - but the "problem" now that everyone seems to be trying to solve is how to get cheaper and more common/available hardware out there.
You have to wonder why with their new found wealth that Amiga themselves arent more pro-active in this area...
Incidentally the Ruksun thing is just to pump out more AA titles. |
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elatour
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Re: [Poll] Carl's Amiga Test Posted on 3-Nov-2006 3:22:02
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Joined: 18-Jan-2005 Posts: 936
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| @CodeSmith
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The "windows" that runs on cellphones is a very different beast than that which runs on desktops. It shares a similar UI and it's (sortof) source compatible with desktop Windows, but the similarities end there. |
Not sure what your point is aside from stating this obvious fact which I believe most of us here are aware of. But I keep coming back to my original point. For every such embedded device that swicthes to using Windows, it's one more lost opportunity for AOS4 in that market and something which lessens the likelihood of anyone adopting AOS4 for these types of devices or attracting development for any AOS4 device that may actually come out some time in the next few years.
Last edited by elatour on 03-Nov-2006 at 03:23 AM.
_________________ When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids... |
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