@TrevorDick

Let's be clear about something...

Amiga OS4 running natively or close enough on x86 YES...

Being hosted a big fat NO!

I would be prepared to get anything that runs OS4 (Amiga OS with perfect backward compatibility).

@ Carl-S

I think you are planning something, I can feel it, but I don't know what yet...

_________________
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@Carl-S

Quote:

What if 1. Amiga OS 4 ran on a modern PC box/laptop, and 2. Classic Amiga apps and games emulated "perfectly" on that same box.

Sorry Carl have to disagree on this one and only voted a maybe.

1) .Modern PC box/laptop. Sorry not my vision of "Amiga", and very counter to the 'total" Amiga pkg.

2) Emulated "perfectly"; not interested in an Emulated Amiga I want the whole pkg., the real thing.
Not interested in a "lindows" type business matrix.

Go back to when the Amiga was a "total" pkg. The loyal users then were sold the idea of "well you can get common parts”, use them and you can have your Amiga. That was the start of this mess IMHO. Later on it became;” away with all the custom stuff”, let’s port to PPC. So all we have left is the look at feel of the Amiga
Now we are talking emulated "perfectly", sorry thats not interesting to me.

Last edited by Troika on 26-Oct-2006 at 11:20 PM.

_________________
Troika NG progress reports & news releases will be released as such, from my office.
ttp://www.troikang.com/ Amy, A NEW HOPE
============================================
Opinions I might express are mine alone,and do not represent those of Troika

@Carl-S

im using windows xp at the moment to write this, so instead of buying new hardware it would be good to save lots of money and just buy the os (so the question is when do i buy os4), but i dont see it as being that simple.

there is another factor for thisl. seeing as os4 is not out yet, there is still work to be done, and ppc hardware to be released for it to run on, there will be extra added time on top for making os4 for x86.

as well as the actual programming, there is all the behind the scenes work of making contracts, as well as the state of flux lots of os4 components are in which mean they couldnt be made for x86.

would people be willing to wait even longer than they have for this to be done ?

_________________

@Carl-S

Quote:

Could you summarize those repeated statements here? I've not seen them. Thanks.

I probably won't be the only one but here's what I remember...

1) Some of the decision makers seem not interested and not to like x86.

2) Current contracts do not allow Hyperion to do an x86 port even if they wanted to. This situation also prevents OS4 porting to PegasosPPC or MacPPC hardware, even if they wanted to and had all the documentation they wanted. Some people were incredibly suprised when the Samantha project was announced and publically confirmed by Amiga Inc. because other new-PPC designs had failed to get any response at all about the OS licensing.

3) Some marketing fears, such as dual-booting with Windows would happen, Windows would take over as primary OS, people would buy Windows versions of games and apps instead of waiting for AmigaOS-native ports and thus there would be no real market for AmigaOS game/app developers/sellers

4) Too difficult to keep up with the humungous variety of PC hardware with drivers. Only a small subset of devices could be supported well and users would have to make sure not to buy the wrong things. ("Amiga" dealers could put packages together and sell "certified" upgrade items to avoid this problem, but people seem to want to buy from their local PC superstore instead of "paying more" for the same thing at Amiga stores across the country if they even have one in their country)

That's what I remember at the moment, others can help fill in the blanks.



For MacPPC hardware, the reasoning is that there's no "proper" hardware documentation for Apple custom chips, they for example put IDE, ethernet and firewire into the Apple UniNorth2 northbridge chip in my iBook. Some say it must beout there since Linux and other open-source things work on Macs, but the developers seem to not want to reverse engineer open-source code even if it's well commented, and I've seen some that has zero commenting.

_________________
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@Carl-S

Quote:

Carl-S wrote: @TrevorDick Quote: TrevorDick wrote: We have had this discussion several times over the past couples of years at least! We know clearly where Hyperion stand on this issue form their repeated statements. Could you summarize those repeated statements here? I've not seen them. Thanks.

Will provide links later, or you can try the search link at top right of page, but.. (doing TrevorDick impersonation):
1. Hyperion has no interest in an x86 port. The standard response is:
a. They have no license for other than PPC.
b. They continue to believe OS4 has some future in the embedded PPC market, which makes x86 not worth pursuing.

2. For mac hardware:
a. They have no license to port to Mac.
b. There is unsuitable documentation for such a port (counter-argument says, 'BSD, Linux, etc have done it...')

3. For any other hardware:
a. They have no license to port to X.
b. They are not a hardware company.

The above isn't meant to slam Hyperion, etc, but is the gist of it. It has been said on a few occasions, Hyperion would 'consider a port to some hardware' in the event they believed enough sales could be made to pay for the port plus allow some profit. It hasn't been clear if Hyperion can 'choose' such hardware on their own, so it's assume AInc 'approval' is required first.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@billt

Quote:

Wipeout2097 desn't run. Other PPC-native things don't run. PPC-optimized versions of things don't run. Hey, my Ubuntu-PPC LiveCD doesn't boot... What the?! Now, if there was a respectable PPC emulation as part of the package, things might run. I don't know how well certain things might run that way, and it might give PPC a bad name and change these people's minds, at which point you give them back their original Intel stickers?

So "IF" you could run AmigaOS4 and Wipeout2097, and IBrowse, and MPlayer, and everyother Amiga app you have, then how could you tell what CPU a laptop had other than the sticker?

By going and sitting down and using whatever apps you use on Amiga how could you tell if it's an AMD, Intel, G3 or G4 under the hood? Would AmigaOS4 stop being AmigaOS4 if you opened your laptop and saw it was running on a chip that said Core2 Duo? Why would it be AmigaOS one minute and then when you looked at the CPU all of sudden start being the Son of Satan?

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@Fransexy

Dream scenario:

Amiga OS 4.x running on cheap, affordable and powerful motherboards/cpus.

Enclosed in superb cases (designed by me hopefully )

with an Amiga identity.

I was just today using a G4, a G5 and a dual core Intel powered macs, for some reason the intel duo ones seemed faster, more responsive...

_________________
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@Carl-S

Quote:

Sometimes a specific test case provides better insight than an abstract definition. So, here is a test question.

Man, I love your attitude and your enthusiasm!

Answering now before reading other people's answers...

Quote:

1. Amiga OS 4 ran on a modern PC box/laptop, and 2. Classic Amiga apps and games emulated "perfectly" on that same box. How would you feel about that?

It would feel great. Thanks to the more powerful HW and the better emulation the wonderful feeling that I enjoy every day on this AmigaOne would be amplified a lot.

At the same time, I would not exactly be really happy about the x86 because, although I don't know the deep technical details, I still prefer the younger, cleaner and, I think, potentially more promising (because of the potential still to be exploited) PPC architecture and I would not like the idea of PPC fading away even more - or, in other words, the idea of contributing to the monopoly of a "lesser" technology that gained the edge basically for marketing reasons would not exactly excite me.

Quote:

How many people here would use it immediately?

Obviously, everybody who has a minimum interest in AOS4 - and enough money, but, of course, this becomes less of a factor with cheaper HW.
However, *ideally*, it would be just the same if a comparable PPC HW was available at a comparable price... with the advantage of favouring another technology as well.

Quote:

How many would still wait for PPC hardware?

Of course, nobody*. But not necessarily everybody would be 100% happy about x86.
*Well, maybe except some religious zealot and/or fervent idealist could decide to stick to PPC.

In all, for the moment being, I'd say that dropping PPC for x86 would be a minor scar for a huge bliss.
As for the future... maybe a winning choice, maybe a partially winning choice, maybe... a pity for a wasted chance.

saimo

edit: I forgot the vote: I voted "maybe, eventually" because I can already enjoy AOS4, the AmigaOne can cope with all the tasks I need (even if with some minor nuisance at times) and I don't have much money. If I had not had AOS4, the answer would have been a "yes".

Last edited by saimo on 26-Oct-2006 at 11:03 PM.

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@Carl-S

I believe basicly Hyperion lacks or lacked the funding and resources to support too much different hardware simultaneouly. That's why they initially focussed on supporting the classic PPC expansions and A1 computers. They believe OS4 for the short term has potential as an embedded OS, they ported the OS to a cancelled IBM PPC PDA as funded by Amiga Inc. They also make some money by licensing OS4 originating 3D technology to other companies.

In the distant past they also investigate 'platform independent' Amiga Anywhere technolgy and at some point demoed their 3D technology for this platform, but then decided to dedicate their time on developing and managing the OS4 project. Now that the platform has matured and A1 hardware is no longer available, they work with various companies on alternatives. They view the OS4 platform viable as a development platform for the embedded market. However they love the OS themselves as users and would like to see the OS survive in an as large as possible market.

@Carl-S

Diverting a bit...

Have you still got Amigas kicking around and if so which models?

Thanks

_________________
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@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

Would AmigaOS4 stop being AmigaOS4 if you opened your laptop and saw it was running on a chip that said Core2 Duo? Why would it be AmigaOS one minute and then when you looked at the CPU all of sudden start being the Son of Satan?

I was just answering the "How would you tell" question. I myself don't care what CPU is in there. Considering here is no more PPC laptops in production, it's hard to rationalize demanding PowerPC as the exclusive CPU for OS4, IMHO. I've tried two diffrent approaches to satisfy my desire for an "Amiga laptop". Macs are out, and Amiga Inc. ignored my inquiries for licensing a new hardware design. I dont' see any additional solutions to the "Amiga laptop" desire that meets the PowerPC requirement. Unfortunately any x86 solution falls into the same business-politics quagmire that Macs and other new-design attempts (other than Samantha) have been stuck in.

I think I mentioned that I've tried to use Amithlon. I bought it shortly before the big meltdown, but the install CD won't even boot on my PC, so it's not even possible for me to use it. That would have been running AmigaOS3.9 on an AMD64 in an emulated environment, and I would have been quite happy with that. But the thing that claimed it was going to give me that failed to do so, and I'm stuck with an $150 unusable CD with no customer support behind it.

Last edited by billt on 26-Oct-2006 at 11:11 PM.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@Carl-S

I think OS4 on x86 is a great idea. I feel it's the only way to secure cheap hardware that is available right here and now.

AmigaOS is so efficient it will out do anything out there no matter what it runs on.

As for software the most important thing right now is a decent web browser. The ones available are totaly useless with todays standards.

It's also a good time to eat shares of the Windows marked as Vista is coming up, more bloated and limited than ever. A lot of users are fed up and looking for an alternative. OSX is the only other choice atm I guess, but still a bit expensive and Linux is to hard/complicated to use for most people.

AmigaOS is very nicely placed in the middle. It's easy to use and yet you are able to control and understand how the system is built and works.

Sorry for jabbing on endlessly

Stian Strøm,
System developer, AmigaWeb.net

Last edited by stianstr on 26-Oct-2006 at 11:27 PM.

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Stian Strøm,
System developer, AmigaWeb.net

@TrevorDick

Quote:

TrevorDick wrote: @Bobsonsirjonny However I know what @Fransexy means. I would hate for OS4.0 just to end up running on an X86 box under windows! IMHO it much br standaloneand have it's own identity otherwise we may as well stay with an excellent OS3.9 emulated package like Amikit (or simila TrevorDick

Quite - but I dont think the question ever was one of hosting OS 4 on windows. I would not want to see OS 4 only available in a hosted configuaration. I'd personally like to see OS 4 running native on as many processors as possible - from the £120 GP2X, through to the £1000 Intel Core Duo Laptop.

Exploit the other markets. The GP2X alone has shifted 3000 units in the UK this year.. and its not even Christmas yet...

@Carl-S

Sh*t I hit the wrong button !! It's a bit late, and voted "Yes" while I was reading the answer of someone else
If only we could have the possiblity to modify our answers in a poll, I would have voted 'no'. . Why ?

Because I firmly think that AOS on x86 will sign it's definitive death, just see Amithlon...

Earlier while I was in the train from Paris returning from a business trip I saw someone bringing out it's Apple laptop (one of the latest) and I thought "hey cool, I'll finally could see how nice OSX works on a x86 and could compare to my XP", but you know what ?
As soon as the notebook was switched on it booted Windows XP, you it was it's default setup, nothing to touch or to select. And you what this guy did on this ? He fired Thunderbird and quickly after OpenOffice !!! Things he could have done as well under OSX, but fact is now he has the possibility to boot Windows and *not* being different why bother and trying to find solution to do something under OSX when you have to possibility not to think and use the bloated software that the manufacturer quickly developped and bundled with its hardware.
I predict that soon no more application will be produced for OSX and then every remaining users at that time (i.e. those that wouldn't have fallen before) will go to Windows just because it's simplier...
I really don't want that for AOS, and you know what ? When AOS will be no more then I think I won't buy another machine, and instead of developping at my spare time I'll do gardening or find another hobby. Because I spend my whole 8/10 hours a days developping applications under borring Windows and the first thing I do when I'm home is switch on my A1/OS4 because it relax me to do somehting I consider fun, if/when there is no fun anymore, then I'll stop.

EDIT: I'm not for X86 because of Windows, but I'm not tied specifically with PPC either... In fact I think AOS can't stand the comparison against Windows (joe average user wise : "what ? I can't use my latest all-in-one printer on your AOS system ?", "what ? I can"t hook my firewire DV Camera ?", etc.)

Last edited by abalaban on 26-Oct-2006 at 11:15 PM.

_________________
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Now dreaming AOS 4.2...
Thank you to all devs involved for this great job !

@Carl-S

I think most application programmers for OS4 would like to see a larger
userbase for their creations. Given the struggles we've had with
hardware supply so far, using cheap PC boxes would be a reasonable solution to
this problem, so long as you discount any of the political and technical
issues that go with it.

OS 4 currently has a good level of compatibility for running older 68K applications.
As long as the 68K emulation was as good on an x86 box, as it is on the
current PPC hardware, then that would suffice. UAE is always on hand if you want
to run old games and demos.

Having said all that I'm more than happy to run OS4 on PPC, as I'm doing right
now, as long as it is readily available for others to do the same. Given the
current situation with hardware I voted yes.

Cheers,
Bean.

_________________
OS4.1 + SAM Flex
RIP my A1XE.. that used to have an appetite for batteries!

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

So "IF" you could run AmigaOS4 and Wipeout2097, and IBrowse, and MPlayer, and everyother Amiga app you have, then how could you tell what CPU a laptop had other than the sticker?

Well, actually the difference *could* be noted. AFAIK PPCs don't need (or used to need) as much power as x86s and do not dissipate as much heat - battery duration anyone?
Of course, this is only a hypothetical thought, as one should compare the figures of similarly performing CPUs. If this is possible and somebody can show the numbers, it would be very interesting to consider this aspect. I suspect, however, that thanks to the difference of investments in the desktop department, (at the moment) x86 may well win also as regards consumption and related issues.

saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@billt

Is it not possible to make a PPC laptop motherboard and licence a currently
produced laptop case with everything except the actual board, from Acer or
any other big manufacturer, and put it in that case? This way a relatively cheap
PPC laptop could be made.


@Carl-S

Nice to see you here on AW. You might not know this but the whole feeling has
changed since you first posted. The stupid arguments seems to have disappeared.
Thank you!!!

Last edited by Samwel on 26-Oct-2006 at 11:22 PM.

_________________
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@Samwel

Quote:

@Carl-S Nice to see you here on AW. You might not know this but the whole feeling has changed since you first posted. The stupid arguments seems to have disappeared. Thank you!!!

I noticed that too. Things have become a bit more civilized

Nice to see some of the people who made Amiga possible in the first place hang around here

_________________
Stian Strøm,
System developer, AmigaWeb.net

@stianstr

Quote:

I noticed that too. Things have become a bit more civilized

me too...

If only J. Miner could say something here...

@Carl-S

I voted "maybe", because several issues would need to be addressed first before
I could make it a definite "yes".

1) A narrow set of chipsets would need to be selected.

It would be too difficult to support more than a few chipsets and would take far too long to make a port that runs on most hardware which by then would be obsolete/unavailable.

Amithlon and even QNX are good examples of how problematic it is to support more than a few chipsets.

2) The boxes would have to be custom-made and be easily recgognized as being Amigas.

With such a low market share, branding is critical.

The flip side is that it requires a much greater investment as the machines have to be assembled and distributed instead of people just buying any PC anywhere.

OSX which runs on custom/branded hardware isn't doing too bad while Linux which runs on most PCs isn't doing so well in the desktop world. Aside from user-friendliness it might have something to do with people not noticing the PCs running Linux and thus remaining unaware of its existence and "widespread" (comparatively) use.

3) 68k AND PPC CPUs would have to be emulated.

Some applications can be recompiled for x86, some can't. 68k emulation is pretty much taken care of, so are the original custom chips, but there's a lot of work left to be done to get decent PPC emulation.

Luckily AmigaOS and the current PPC applications haven't been relying heavily on AltiVec as there would be no way to match its performance emulation or not, short of using 10GHz CPUs.
Technically it would be possible to forgo PPC emulation altogether but some people like to code or optimize things in assembly and wouldn't like nor want to learn and switch to x86 (IMHO with good reasons). With PPC emulation they wouldn't have to.

4) Some way of protecting the OS from piracy would have to be devised.

Unlike with custom hardware which usually includes the price of the OS license, selling an OS4-x86 CD which can run on any supported hardware would quickly and surely lead to rampant piracy again, bringing the return on investment down to peanuts. Looking at the ratio of Windows piracy it would seem that there's no practical way to prevent it, though M$ isn't famous for being clever either.

If these 4 requirements were met it could work.

None of this would be necessary though if cheap PPC boards were to become available, packaged both as laptops and expandable desktop versions.
Personally that's the solution I'd prefer as I'm not eager to have a boiler inside my Amigas being annoyed enough as it is by the cooling requirements of the G4 CPU compared to the 68060.

And I suspect that people are more attached to the Amiga as a complete package including the machine than just the OS, otherwise Amithlon would have been much more successful, as it came at a time when there was no PPC hardware, no OS4, and it ran OS3.9 much faster than any 68k Amigas could.

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