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      /  The Dragon is stirring - at last!
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Crumb 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 10:31:01
#101 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@hatschi

Quote:
So you are comparing a CPU (Coldfire) with an operating system (Morphos 0.1)?


We are talking about OS(complete or components)/CPU/Emulation so the 3 things aren't offtopic.

Everyone is talking about native coldfire AROS or OS components like datatypes arguing that it will magicly make 060 apps run faster than on real 060, something that won't happen.

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Zardoz 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 10:34:26
#102 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@hatschi

No, i'm comparing a 68k emulator on a supposedly 68k compatible processor with a 68k emulator on a blatantly incompatible processor, both running a 68k OS.

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hatschi 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 10:35:22
#103 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@Crumb

Quote:
Everyone is talking about native coldfire AROS or OS components like datatypes arguing that it will magicly make 060 apps run faster than on real 060, something that won't happen.


"Won't happen" - do you mean that nobody will do it, or do you mean that it won't reach speeds >060 even when recompiled for CF?

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Zardoz 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 10:37:16
#104 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@BigGun

Quote:
To behonest all I can't stand all these NEY-sayng any more.
I'll now compile Aweb and 194x for Coldfire.
I have no doubt that the coldfire version will run much faster on the Dragon.


Sure, who cares? If I want a *recompiled* AWeb, I can run the PPC version and it will be well faster anyway. People want the dragon to run ***UNMODIFIED*** 68k applications faster than on current 68k processors, that's how it's advertised and that's what the market has been led to believe, there is absolutely NO market for another incompatible processor.

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Crumb 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 10:37:45
#105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@BigGun

Quote:
You know yourself that a coldfire clean Exec or gfx.library will make a BIG difference


Of course, but it won't make 060 apps much faster.

Quote:
To behonest all I can't stand all these NEY-sayng any more.


Ok, ok... Dragon is the best idea since sliced bread! happy now?

Quote:
I have no doubt that the coldfire version will run much faster on the Dragon


Me neither. But phone me when 68060 serious apps like ArtEffect/ImageFX/Pagestream run faster than on real 68060.

BTW... If I wanted to recompile everything I would recompile it for AROS so it runs in really fast hardware.

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Zardoz 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 10:39:16
#106 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@hatschi

Quote:
"Won't happen" - do you mean that nobody will do it, or do you mean that it won't reach speeds >060 even when recompiled for CF?


The current 68k branch of AROS isn't quite up to date.

Moreover, of course it will be faster than a 060 if native but people do *not* want a Dragon to run recompiled apps, they want it to run the originals, unmodified, apps fast.

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hatschi 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 10:45:28
#107 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@AMiGR

Quote:
Moreover, of course it will be faster than a 060 if native but people do *not* want a Dragon to run recompiled apps, they want it to run the originals, unmodified, apps fast


Why wouldn't a Dragon-owner want to run recompiled apps when they are much faster than the originals? When people bought 040/603e BPPCs, they did it mainly when there were just a few PPC-compiled games/demos available, old 68k-code didn't provide any advantage to them either (there already were faster 68k-only boards out at the time the BPPC appeared).

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Crumb 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 10:47:58
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@hatschi

Quote:
"Won't happen" - do you mean that nobody will do it, or do you mean that it won't reach speeds >060 even when recompiled for CF?


If we have my app XYZ compiled for 68060 and we recompile it for Coldfire it won't be a 68060 app any longer. It will be a native coldfire app.

If we can't recompile apps like ArtEffect/Scala/ImageFX/ProStationAudio because we don't live in a GPL fantasy world, the apps will continue being 68060 only.

These 68060 apps won't run faster in the Coldfire because you *can't* recompile these apps because you don't have access to the sources, the author has dissapeared or the sources are lost.

Most of 680x0 apps won't be recompiled due to that reasons.

So any reasoning saying that you can reocmpile stuff for Coldfire is fine, but you can't recompile the important stuff, the apps that have made you continue using Amigas.

It seems everyone has forgot amiga killer apps and now spends the day changing PNG icons, browsing forums in non CSS browsers and playing SDL ports.

Yes, you can recompile 200 SDL games but it won't make Dragon more interesting.

We haven't seen a single helloworld native coldfire program yet. Are you sure native software won't slow down a lot with the 680x0 emulation?

68060 software runs slower than on 060. And ArtEffect and other software will run slower than on real 060. You can't recompile it. What do you propose? Elbox claims that 060 emulation runs faster than on G3 systems, and that is clearly a lie.

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BigGun 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 10:51:52
#109 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

@AMiGR

Quote:

AMiGR wrote:
@BigGun

Quote:
To behonest all I can't stand all these NEY-sayng any more.
I'll now compile Aweb and 194x for Coldfire.
I have no doubt that the coldfire version will run much faster on the Dragon.


Sure, who cares? If I want a *recompiled* AWeb, I can run the PPC version and it will be well faster anyway. People want the dragon to run ***UNMODIFIED*** 68k applications faster than on current 68k processors, that's how it's advertised and that's what the market has been led to believe, there is absolutely NO market for another incompatible processor.


LOL, Amigr, do you know that you remind me of the neysayers 15 years ago.

When the 68040 came out there were some people bashing the 68040 as it was not 100% compatible to the 68030/68881 and some commands needed be emulated in software and some rare FPU command ran 10 times slower in emulation.

Now was the 68040 slower than the 68030 ?
No!, all people use their 64040 lib that emulates the missing commands and are just happy.
And of many applications 68040 optimized versions came out quickly.

And then when the 68060 came out there where people bashing it because it missed more command and more commands needed to be emulated in software.
Despite the missing commands the 68060 runs much faster than the 68k CPUs before.
And quickly applications compiled for 68060 came out too.


Now with the Coldfire the thing is a little bity more drastic.
While the 68040 and 68060 missed a few commands each the Coldfire misses a number of them.
But still a coldfire.lib can solve the issue in a similar way the 68040 and 68060 libs did.

The point is that for many things the OS and workbench speed is the key factor.
Getting exec and gfxlib coldfire optimized is simple.

If the underlying gfx libs will run faster then execution of not optimized 68k programs can as fast or even slower than on a 68060 and still the application will feel faster on the codlfire.
For example for using a texteditor like CED it makes little difference if the main applications runs at 0.5xtimes, 1xtimes, or 4 times 68060 speed. What will make a difference is if the GFX operations for scrolling etc will run faster.
So by using a coldfire gfxlib/cybergfx our old CED will feel and run much faster on the coldfire even if it the main task would not run much faster.

Now what will be important to get recompiled will be very CPU hungry apps like LHA or TAR or GCC or Videoplayer or renderer.
Most of the apps that are still important can recompiled with codlfire optimisation to make them much faster.

I think its very simple in fact.


Cheers
Gunnar

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 10:56:07
#110 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12434
From: Norway

@AMiGR

Quote:

Quote:

Give them a few weeks and wait for a Coldfire version of exec, gfx.lib and of some datatypes and the underlaying OS will run MUCH faster and so will of course all 68k programs run much faster too.


They will not run much faster, in fact, they will *appear* to be running faster, due to them calling faster underlying functions. This will NOT make the 68k emulation itself any faster, which defeats the *whole* point of using a ColdFire.

I think BigGun and you are bout right, ColdFire on NDOS disk will not be any faster, but how cares the games where not designed for fast CPU’s any way, it’s more about having access custom chips to get the right frame rate under heavy copper effects, for the right game play experience, if you update the most common library functions in graphics library, then your likely to boost speed on may programs that use copy images a lot for example, this will kind of give the illusion of increased speed, but will not make lightwave, Real3d render any image faster, lets say they make a native mpga.library then that will help improve the multimedia experience when they are playing mp3’s, they most likely need some native movie player and so to really pimp it up, and native IDE, audio, network device drivers, native datatypes for IBrowser.

But think kind of beats the point of the of having the ColdFire if you need every thing ColdFire native any way, way not simply use PowerPC, and an existing PowerPC OS whit all library’s native from the start?

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Crumb 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 10:58:00
#111 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@hatschi

Quote:
Why wouldn't a Dragon-owner want to run recompiled apps when they are much faster than the originals?


Because no one is going to recompile Scala/ArtEffect/Pagestream/ProStationAudio/etcetera?

Quote:
When people bought 040/603e BPPCs, they did it mainly when there were just a few PPC-compiled games/demos available,


When PPC boards were released most of software was *not* recompiled for PPC.

Quote:
old 68k-code didn't provide any advantage to them either


Although running the original 680x0 binary was a disadvantage they couldn't do anything about that because it was their only choice if the author didn't released a PPC version.

And that happened almost 10 years ago and happens now: where are the native ports of most of programs for MOS/OS4? There are no ports of most important amiga killer apps ever released.

So are you trying to tell me that suddenly all the dissapeared authors will buy amigas again, will buy a coldfire and suddenly will start recompiling their apps for an accelerator that runs their software slower than in 1992 (yeah, A4040 boards are *that* old).

Most used PPC software you run on OS3.9 are datatypes.

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COBRA 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 10:59:49
#112 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Crumb

Quote:
You could do like AmiDog did with his AMP2 video player and reduce the size of the screen transfered to video ram. The PIP mode will smooth the image slightly and will allow you to resize it to the size of the screen


I do have something like this already, although currently it's automatic (when window is sized smaller than half size of the movie resolution). I'm thinking of adding an option to toggle this manually during playback.

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hatschi 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 11:00:54
#113 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@Crumb

Quote:
68060 software runs slower than on 060. And ArtEffect and other software will run slower than on real 060. You can't recompile it. What do you propose?


I propose to run them slower.

Honestly, I have explained to you earlier that there is currently no alternative for 68k-focused Amigans (alternative being a new, relatively fast accelerator board) and why I think that having a new all-in-one board *does* make sense, even if it doesn't achieve full 060-speed on old 68k-code. But you keep going on and on about the "not faster than 060" point. It might be your own reason *not* to buy a Dragon, but I would think that people who look for an accelerator/busboard-solution and who compare Ebay prices for a 1260/G-rex combo also *might* have their reasons for preferring the Dragon. The discussion shouldn't be solely CPU-focused, since the Dragon is a busboard with a Coldfire-CPU. So even if the CF can't compete when executing non-recompiled 68k-code, there are many other factors that make it appealing for Classic-geeks.

Quote:
When PPC boards were released most of software was *not* recompiled for PPC.


Yes, that was basically what I was trying to explain. People rushed out and bought it even though there were not many recompiled PPC-games/apps and even though people were pointing out that there was no PPC-OS available at that time (ok, ok, Linux APUS) and even though people pointed out that the PPC wouldn't run their 68k-ECS-games any faster.

Last edited by hatschi on 15-Nov-2006 at 11:10 AM.

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Crumb 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 11:21:38
#114 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@BigGun

Quote:
LOL, Amigr, do you know that you remind me of the neysayers 15 years ago

When the 68040 came out there were some people bashing the 68040 as it was not 100% compatible to the 68030/68881 and some commands needed be emulated in software and some rare FPU command ran 10 times slower in emulation.


15 years ago the authors could rewrite the software because amiga was much more alive than now.

Now the authors have dissapeared and *no one* can rewrite a lot of software.

It's just like releasing a cpu accelerator for c64 that runs c64 titles at half speed and saying... "don't worry!" you can recompile everything so it runs faster!

Quote:
Now was the 68040 slower than the 68030 ?
No!, all people use their 64040 lib that emulates the missing commands and are just happy.


The situation is clearly different because 040 didn't need to emulate the complete cpu. It just missed some FPU commands. In addition to that emulated FPU code runs *faster* than on 68882.

Quote:
And then when the 68060 came out there where people bashing it because it missed more command and more commands needed to be emulated in software.


Despiting that (and unlike Dragon) it also could run 040 software faster than 040.

Quote:
Now with the Coldfire the thing is a little bity more drastic.
While the 68040 and 68060 missed a few commands each the Coldfire misses a number of them.
But still a coldfire.lib can solve the issue in a similar way the 68040 and 68060 libs did.


No, that's not the problem. If the problem was some missing instructions something like Oxypatcher/cyberpatcher would fix that. The problem is that some instructions are the same but give different results. And you can't launch an exception because you don't have an easy way to notice it.

Elbox uses a full cpu emulation like the one used on PPC, arm or any other "alien" cpu and that causes the big slow downs. Coldfire is no faster than a 266Mhz PPC/x86/ARM running an interpretive 680x0 emulator.

Quote:
The point is that for many things the OS and workbench speed is the key factor.


The point is that most of software will continue running slowly because cpu intensive operations won't benefit from the OS. Just like cpu-hungry tasks don't care about the OS.

And the point is that most of software is 680x0 and won't be recompiled, so it will runs *slower* than on hardware produced 10 years ago.

Quote:
For example for using a texteditor like CED it makes little difference if the main applications runs at 0.5xtimes, 1xtimes, or 4 times 68060 speed.


Of course, and EDIT on MSDOS 6 is also very fast. Again, if the only thing you are going to do is edit some plain texts you won't need anything more than a 020... you know what? you don't need Dragon!

Quote:
What will make a difference is if the GFX operations for scrolling etc will run faster.


Sure, but the 20KB per frame moved by CED can be moved without problems by a plain A1200 or even a plain A500 without fast.

Bad example

Quote:
So by using a coldfire gfxlib/cybergfx our old CED will feel and run much faster on the coldfire even if it the main task would not run much faster.


CED is already fast on an 1200/14Mhz with AGA and scrolls very smoothly without the need of any accelerator.

Quote:
Now what will be important to get recompiled will be very CPU hungry apps like LHA or TAR or GCC or Videoplayer or renderer.


Well, LHA would be one of the few useful things you could recompile for Coldfire. VideoPlayer? Do you really plan to watch videos on a 266Mhz cpu?

Now my example:

I have ArtEffect. It won't benefit from your OS optimized functions. It can't be modified because you don't have the sources. It will run slower than 10 years ago. Dragon is great, isn't it?

Quote:
Most of the apps that are still important can recompiled with codlfire optimisation to make them much faster.


That's wrong: you can't recompile most of apps, we don't live in a GPL fantasy world. Most of sources for Amiga apps are lost or won't be used to make PPC or Coldfire versions.

Quote:
I think its very simple in fact.


No, it isn't. You can't recompile most of software bacause you don't have access to the sources.

To prove me wrong could you please release a MorphOS version of ArtEffect or ADPro?

Last edited by Crumb on 15-Nov-2006 at 11:24 AM.

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Crumb 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 11:31:07
#115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@hatschi

Quote:
I propose to run them slower.


bad idea

Most of users I know use gfx cards and the slowest cpu they use is a 040/40. Most of them have 060/50. If they bought their PPCs with 040 they upgraded their boards to 060 or exchanged the boards for 060 boards because 90% of software is 680x0.

If it costs around 350Euros it's not cost effective. You can buy complete amigas on eBay that will run your classic software much better.

If you don't care about classic software you can buy 2nd hand pegasos.

The speed shown in the videos is worse than my old A3640/30. That accelerator is pretty slow.

The only reason people bought CSPPCs was because it included 040 and 060 so their current software wouldn't run slower.

Last edited by Crumb on 15-Nov-2006 at 11:32 AM.

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hatschi 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 11:37:10
#116 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@Crumb

Quote:
It's just like releasing a cpu accelerator for c64 that runs c64 titles at half speed and saying... "don't worry!" you can recompile everything so it runs faster!


"At half speed" compared to what - standard C64 speed or SuperCPU speed? I guess the Coldfire will be faster than a 68020@14.28Mhz, even when executing non-recompiled code.

But it's a good comparion that is worthwhile looking at: People buy SuperCPUs for over $300 although it doesn't provide any reasonable advantage for playing games that are not specially targeted at the SuperCPU (99.99% of the games). There are a few games, apps specifically targeted at the SuperCPU and that's it basically. If you are looking for logical and reasonable explanations for buying decisions, you should better *not* look for them within the retro-hardware market.

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hatschi 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 11:40:10
#117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@Crumb

Quote:
The only reason people bought CSPPCs was because it included 040 and 060 so their current software wouldn't run slower.


No. The reason why people bought CSPPCs was because it included a PPC - otherwise they could have had the similar "experience" for much less money (68k-only card).

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bennymee 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 11:53:46
#118 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 691
From: Netherlands

@Crumb

>The only reason people bought CSPPCs was because it included 040 and 060 so >their current software wouldn't run slower.

Yeah, right. Most of my friends bought the CSPPC's because it included the Wide-SCSI controller, Permedia slot, fastest ram (dual simm) and offcourse PowerPC CPU: as AmigaOS was going PowerPC (real soon now :)

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Crumb 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 12:04:45
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@hatschi

Quote:
"At half speed" compared to what - standard C64 speed or SuperCPU speed? I guess the Coldfire will be faster than a 68020@14.28Mhz, even when executing non-recompiled code.


Standard. Anyway standard amigas used 040/25 and 060/50 too.

Quote:
But it's a good comparion that is worthwhile looking at: People buy SuperCPUs for over $300 although it doesn't provide any reasonable advantage for playing games that are not specially targeted at the SuperCPU (99.99% of the games). There are a few games, apps specifically targeted at the SuperCPU and that's it basically. If you are looking for logical and reasonable explanations for buying decisions, you should better *not* look for them within the retro-hardware market.


But current c64 apps won't run slower than what people is used to.

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Crumb 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 12:06:45
#120 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@hatschi

Quote:

No. The reason why people bought CSPPCs was because it included a PPC - otherwise they could have had the similar "experience" for much less money (68k-only card).


I mean that if the PPC boards had been sold without 040 or 060 and the speed had been much slower than 040, they wouldn't have sold as many units as including a companion 040/060 cpu.


Maybe if they have used 604e/233 with a 680x0 JIT emulator in all the boards and dropped the companion cpu they could have forced developers to start producing more PPC native hardware and they would have reduced a lot the price of the board. Maybe... but users could spend their money on a board without fearing that lightwave and other apps would run slower than with their previous accelerator.

Last edited by Crumb on 15-Nov-2006 at 12:09 PM.

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